Talk:Larry Holmes vs. Muhammad Ali

Name of article

I had started this article with the title "The Last Hurrah (Ali-Holmes)". It has now been changed to "Muhammad Ali vs. Larry Holmes" by Mac Dreamstate who gives as his rationale for changing the title "Consistency with other fight articles."

I would submit that the original title was the one which was taking into account "consistency with other fight articles". In the Muhammad Ali template we can see that Ali's fight with Foreman is called "The Rumble in the Jungle (Ali–Foreman)", similarly Ali's first fight with Frazier is called "Fight of the Century (Ali–Frazier I)", and Ali's third fight with Frazier is called "Thrilla in Manila (Ali–Frazier III)". Now if we click on the main articles of these pages they are titled "The Rumble in the Jungle", "Fight of the Century", and "Thrilla in Manilla".

The pattern seems to be that if a fight is known by some name (because that name was used by the fight's promoters to promote the fight) then that name is used as the title of any WP page describing the fight.

By this logic the main article should have as its title "The Last Hurrah". The reason why i am quibbling over something apparently so trivial is because i wanted to create more articles of Ali's fights and am now confused about what titles to use for these articles. For instance, should Ali's last fight have as its title "Drama in Bahama" or "Muhammad Ali vs Trevor Berbick"?

I am pinging other editors for their input.

1. The following editors have done editing on the main article of Muhammad Ali: The Glory Years: Randy Kryn, Zackmann08, PRehse

2. The following editors have done editing on the main article of Facing Ali: JLOPO

3. The following editors have done editing on Twelve Rounds to Glory: Stevietheman, Fadesga, Yankees10, Aristophanes68, Coolabahapple

4. The following editors have done editing on The Soul of a Butterfly: See above

5. The following editors have done editing on Muhammad Ali: His Life and Times: See above

6. The following editors have done editing on The Greatest: My Own Story: Bgwhite,GrahamHardy, Neptune's Trident, TahitiBlue Soham321 (talk) 00:47, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Greetings. I have no objection to the article title being re-reverted to The Last Hurrah, as it was before, but I propose that it should also have a suffix of "(Muhammad Ali vs. Larry Holmes)", rather than simply "Ali-Holmes". Hyphenation is incorrect in this context (the separator has to be en dash), and the use of boxers' full names is widespread across almost all WP boxing articles. As for promotional titles being used in further articles, I cannot offer much of an opinion. Tyson–Holyfield I and II were known as Finally and The Sound and the Fury, respectively, but neither are included as WP titles. Likewise Lewis–Tyson: Is On is not used for Lennox Lewis vs. Mike Tyson. I guess Ali could be considered a special case, in that it would be acceptable for his fight articles to make use of the promotional titles outlined above; i.e., Drama in Bahama. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 00:54, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

In the main article, there should be no suffix at all, if we are aiming for consistency. The title should just be "The Last Hurrah". That is how it is in The Rumble in the Jungle, Fight of the Century, and Thrilla in Manila. I made a mistake in initially wording the title "The Last Hurrah (Ali-Holmes)". I was looking at the Muhammad Ali template when i chose the title. Now, in the template The Rumble in the Jungle is named "The Rumble in the Jungle (Ali–Foreman)"; similarly Ali's first fight with Frazier is called "Fight of the Century (Ali–Frazier I)", and Ali's third fight with Frazier is called "Thrilla in Manila (Ali–Frazier III)". Soham321 (talk) 01:06, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Except it's not possible to have simply The Last Hurrah as the title; too many other articles of that name. Hence the need for the suffix. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 01:19, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Good point. My only concern with a long title for a WP article, something like "The Last Hurrah (Muhammad Ali vs Larry Holmes)" or "Drama in Bahama (Muhammad Ali vs Trevor Berbick") is that it becomes slightly painful to provide a link to a WP article with a long title from another WP article. Otherwise i am ok with either "The Last Hurrah (Muhammad Ali vs Larry Holmes)" or "The Last Hurrah (Ali vs Holmes)". Soham321 (talk) 01:37, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Redirects can handle that. If "The Last Hurrah (Muhammad Ali vs. Larry Holmes)" is to be used, then for ease of linking, several redirects can point to it: "Ali–Holmes", "Ali-Holmes", "Ali vs. Holmes", and vice versa combinations. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 01:40, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Personally i am ok with what you are proposing. Since i have pinged other editors, let's give them some time to respond, and if there is no objection either one of us can change the title to "The Last Hurrah (Muhammad Ali vs. Larry Holmes)". I'll to have to ask you to do the "several redirects pointing to it" that you are proposing since i don't know how to do it. Soham321 (talk) 01:49, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

• Was the fight known by this name at the time, or just called that by some afterwards? That's what makes the difference. If the common name stays 'The Last Hurrah' then yes, the 'Ali vs. Holmes' should be added. Randy Kryn 10:55, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

The fight was known by this name at the time. That is, the promoters of the fight had called it "The Last Hurrah". See http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1980/10/1/the-last-hurrah-pthey-arent-billing/ Soham321 (talk) 11:18, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

• "The Last Hurrah (Muhammad Ali vs. Larry Holmes)" seems OK to me in a technically complete and unambiguous sense, although I'm not sure this best represents how it's commonly referred to today. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 12:30, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Would User:Soham321 still like for the article to be renamed to "The Last Hurrah (Muhammad Ali vs. Larry Holmes)" as discussed? Mac Dreamstate (talk) 02:13, 15 October 2016 (UTC)