Talk:Lapel

Images needed

We need pictures of notched lapels and peaked lapels and shawl lapels. Anthony Appleyard 08:24, 26 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

- 3 months later, Davidkazuhiro wants to look up lapel at wikipedia to see image but alas there is none. Doesn't anybody have a lapel they can take a picture of and put up? I'm too poor so I don't own a suite haha Davidkazuhiro 16:37, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nearly there

This is a simple little article; it should be easy to finish it off quickly. We need some refs for the modern fashion stuff (not my thing) and a free photograph of a shawl lapel, so we can put in three real illustrations. Nearly there.—Kan8eDie (talk) 00:20, 25 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

History

Maybe add a section describing where/when the lapel came from?Jojii (talk) 04:56, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice but only if the text is faithful to the actual origin and does not fall prey to the English-speaking world's ignorance of history that did not take place in England. Yes, there was certainly some evolution of suit jackets and lapels in England, but the origin of the suit jacket and of lapels is somewhere in Central Asia among the various Turkic and Iranian tribes. Probably would be best if someone could go to a good reference library and look up specialised books on textile history. Some clever googling will turn up clues but I have not come across anything that could be used as a source. The Persian empire is best documented place to look, but note that there are Central Asian mummies and various gold images and stone carvings that are older than that. Probably the earliest horsemen adopted the kaftan as their main article of clothing, and any tribe who adopted horseriding also adopted and adapted the kaftan. Eventually buttons were added, then people left the top buttons open and a natural lapel formed, and then in the Persian empire tailored coats became fashionable and the lapel started to be a built-in item. 96.49.73.102 (talk) 08:20, 3 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If you want to add such a claim to the article (which dies not jibe with the known history of the suit jacket) it is you who should do the research. Saying someone else should go to a research library to find sources for your hypothesis is just rude. So is calling pretty much anyone who doesn't buy your claims ignorant and biased. oknazevad (talk) 13:57, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Boilersuit image

This discussion has been moved here from User talk:Anthony Appleyard#Jacket lapel.

Dear Anthony, I see you User:Anthony Appleyard added the picture of the boilersuit back again. I am still not convinced how useful it is however, for the same reasons I gave last time when removing it: firstly, jacket lapels do not derive from boilersuits (at the very least, show a period coat, like a frock, or dress coat); secondly, this is technically OR; finally, the picture is not a very well-shot one anyway. I would personally prefer if you removed it. Thanks, Kan8eDie (talk) 22:45, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As showing the origin of jacket lapels, it is not the best but it is better than nothing. I do not have access to old garments that you mention. If someone has a better equivalent image, let him upload it instead. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 23:08, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My reasons for removing it are:

It doesn't relate to anything in the text of the article. Moreover, the text in the caption would be more than enough explanation of the origins of lapels, without an image to illustrate.
It's Original research.
It may give the impression that jacket lapels are derived from boilersuits.
IMHO, it's a bad photo.

-TheMightyQuill (talk) 04:16, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I object to having my revert described as having a 'revert-war edit comment'. I in fact initiated discussion on Anthony's talk page. On the other hand, Anthony has reverted several times now with edit summaries not giving explanations, in the face of two editors citing the same concerns (OR, misleading). The article can stay as it is for a while, but the picture will eventually have to go unless you can address the issues. (For the record, I am not keen on the flower image that was used at one stage to replace it.)— Kan8eDie (talk) 06:49, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK, OK, I have replaced the image by text. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 07:22, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Shawl collar is least formal?

I find this statement odd or misinformed, because on clothing specifically intended as formal wear (i.e. the dinner jacket), the shawl collar is considered a fully permissible style and ranks above the notch collar. The notch is least formal because it is associated specifically with business attire, itself derived from the informal lounge suit. The shawl is specific to evening wear and inappropriate both for business attire and full dress, and is one of the many classic traits that may distinguish evening wear from a common business suit. --Luftschiffritter5 1 (talk) 18:16, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I find the statement makes sense. To illustrate that, you would never wear anything with a shawl collar for business; it is simply not formal enough. To explain further, your comparison on a DJ does not hold, because if you are following enough of the rules to care about ranking lapels, notch on DJ is not a garment that actually exists to compare against. Notch DJs do not exist as a result of the way the garment was developed, merging together the earlier "undress" [very informal] evening wear (always shawl) with the formal full dress (always peak) into one intermediate garment. None of the DJ's ancestors had notch which is why it is not an option, rather than because notch is somehow not formal enough.

These sorts of rankings are a bit arbitrary and usually come from largely obsolete ideas of detailing which were being challenged even by the Edwardians. It is a bit funny that we still follow them now, but formal wear has dropped to a sufficiently low usage in the general population now that it is essentially immutable, so we have to muddle through with slightly confusing sets of old rules, not that I think that is a bad thing.Kan8eDie (talk) 20:13, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Feedback

I came here to quickly find out what a lapel was. I first looked in my dictionary which did not have an image. I was still not sure what it was. Looking at the images allowed me to understand what a lapel was. The series of pictures on the left were better than the one on the top right. I was still not sure after looking at the picture on the top right. That is all :) --Boy.pockets (talk) 10:38, 26 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article needs better illustrations. It did me little good to find an "unorthodox pointed lapel" in the top-right master location. After all, the raison d'être for formal-wear is orthodoxy and uniformity, isn't it? Not personal expression or peacocking. (The lady on your arm is supposed to be the eye-magnet, I believe.) Either the illustration (Timothy_Olyphant_peak_lapel_suit.jpg) is inappropriate, or the word "unorthodox" in the caption misled me. Someone else will surely wander by this page hoping for trustworthy advice and guidance. John Sinclair (talk) 21:11, 21 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The "unorthodox" in the caption was inappropriate, per the mandate that Wikipedia be descriptive, not prescriptive (per WP:NPOV. It's a peaked lapel, period. There's no reason to describe it beyond that, especially in passing a judgement. oknazevad (talk) 18:00, 22 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Lapel-less Jackets

In recent times there has been some attempts to make lapel-less Jackets. It could write some about that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.239.225.175 (talk) 23:53, 11 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Needs to cover women's lapels, not only men's

The article and illustrations are entirely centered on menswear, and it's not clear these distinctions and categories apply elsewhere. I would add some content myself, but don't have the knowledge and can't find a good source elsewhere online - precisely the reason I looked here. Looking at women's suits online, trying to compare (to each other and to a suit of my own that I need to describe), I see that in particular, are typically described as "peak lapel", "shawl collar" are used, as are some others. It would be great to be able to tell whether or not my suit has peak lapels or notched, but this content doesn't help. ajvz (talk) 15:38, 10 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The structure and types of lapels are the same whether it's a men's or women's jacket. Shawl collars may be more common on women's jackets than on men's, but the structure of a continuous curve of folded cloth is the same. Other than mentioning fashion (and good luck keeping up with that), there's really not much to add. As it is, I think the article needs to avoid overstating the supposed "rules". oknazevad (talk) 00:28, 26 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]