Talk:Lady of the Lake

Pronunciation

What's the source for the pronunciation of Nimue? I thought it was Caxton's misreading of Malory's "Nyneve" or "Nyneue", so can it really be said to have a correct pronunciation? — 86.139.103.151 20:04, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

For the record, my understanding is that the name is so old that no one can say with any authority how it should be pronounced. Most people pronounce it (in this day and age) with three syllables (usually Nim-moo-aye, sometimes Nim-ewe-aye) following the celtic tradition, however when my mother named me Nimue in 1980 she contacted the linguistics department of the University of Sydney (NSW) regarding the correct pronunciation and they informed her that the name predated any known conventions, including the celtic three syllable one, and that essentially, she could pronounce it however she liked because nobody knew. She chose to pronounce it Nim-ewe.Zenira (talk) 10:29, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

I have always heard the name Nyneve pronounced with three syllables, stress on the first: NIN-uh-vee. But around the internet it seems that most people say NIGH-neev.Nyneve922 (talk) 17:46, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Mists

Should we have some mention of the Lady of the Lake (Viviane) in The Mists of Avalon? --kralahome 04:22, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

If you wish, go for it, if she's a major character in that book.--Cuchullain 21:08, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

See also the Pronunciation section for a discussion of her other names.Nyneve922 (talk) 18:21, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

"Numae"

I made the new page Numae a redirect to here. The info on it was unsourced, and as far as I could tell, not connected to any pre-modern version of the Lady of the Lake story. I'm thinking it was taken from a modern fantasy novel. If I'm wrong about this, please correct my error, but I've never even heard the name "Numae" used for this character before.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:37, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Avalon High

--63.145.54.80 19:49, 23 May 2006 (UTC)I read a book about the Arthurian Ledgend and it was wonderful. It was about the rencartonation of Arthur and everything else.

== Author: Meg Cabot

Title:Avalon High ==

For more details contact me at poohcheri@sbcglobal.net

Texas Chainsaw Parody

I remember seeing a trailer where they parody the Lady of the Lake giving Arthur with the sword. Instead of a sword, it's a chainsaw and it's thrown to Leatherface. But I can't remember which movie did it to add it to the article. 66.177.3.102 01:23, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe not a redirect.

Nimue isn't always synonymous with "The Lady of the Lake," so a redirect might not actually be appropriate. Specifically, Merlin's captor is not the same as The Lady of the Lake. This is entirely dependent on what you're reading and when it was written.

I can dig up some books and make a Nimue page that says "Often identified as The Lady of the Lake, but here are some other versions." Will take me a while though. Places to look in the interim are Arthurian encyclopedias by Norris J. Lacy and by Ronan Coughlan, if I am remembering correctly.

Also, Avalon High wasn't particularly good, certainly not any better than any of the movies for older kids in the last decade that involved Arthurian characters and battles in modern settings, or modern revisions of A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court with child/teen protagonists.

Nothing on Monty Python?

"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government." etc. AnonMoos 16:18, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Bloody peasant!

Surely this is a direct reference, in a movie explicitly making fun of the Arthurian legends. And it's one of the more well-know scenes in the movie. It does seem like it should be mentioned in the modern references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.232.40.141 (talk) 07:18, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Lake Arthur

Why is this linked with Beeswing, Dumfries and Galloway? It makes no sense since the article is a stub with no mention whatsoever about Lake Arthur or any connection with the Arthurian Legends. Is there a “Lake Arthur”?

Rod Lockwood (talk) 11:04, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Image

The initial image in the article is does not represent the Lady of the Lake well. It just appears to be a hovering angel sort of creature. I shall replace it with an image which better depicts the Lady of the Lake.

Mythological Scholar (talk) 01:54, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Lancelot

I'm trying to expand the medieval section of the article but it needs more work. I don't have access to all the sources however. Which text first establishes the Lady as Lancelot's foster mother? The Lancelot-Grail? The Post-Vulgate Cycle? Chretien de Troyes? Does it name a specific Lady or does that story predate the split into multiple characters? Help would be much appreciated. Rajah1 (talk) 20:18, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Lancelot is mentioned as being raised by a water fay in Chretien's Lancelot; this is elaborated upon in Ulrich von Zatzikhoven's Lanzelet, which is of a later date but draws on older material. This fay is first identified as the Lady of the Lake in the Lancelot-Grail.

This article does need a lot of work, but of course this can't proceed without sources at hand.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:40, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Do you have access to that material, Cuchullain? I'd like to rewrite the article to reflect this information but would hate to have it reverted because I don't properly cite the sources. I'd have to hit the library or bookstore before proceeding. Rajah1 (talk) 17:18, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I have a lot of material that would be relevant, but I don't know when I'll have the time to work on it. I have a lot of things going on. If you're interested, I'd suggest making that trip to the library or book store.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:39, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I've been busy as well so I'm not sure when I'll get to this. But it is on my list. In the meantime, I have rewritten the "Other uses" section so that it is no longer a trivia list. Rajah1 (talk) 14:15, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Modern uses

The article is looking better but I think you trimmed the modern lit section a bit too much, Cúchullain. Some of those works seem notable to me. I added a brief reference to them for now. Would not be opposed to restoring some of them, unless they are considered not notable or in need of citations. For what it's worth, other uses in literature/film/television, etc. seem more significant to the topic than, say, Robert Jordan using the name (but not the character) "Nynaeve" in one of his books. Rajah1 (talk) 16:15, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that everything needs to be sourced to reliable, third-party secondary sources, and none of that was. This is obviously a problem the whole article faces, of course, not just that one section. What we would need would be a good secondary source on the Lady of the Lake in modern works to establish which are important enough to mention and which aren't. You're right, though, Robert Jordan's use isn't notable.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:26, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Media Update

Pamela Salem plays Nimue (and later, Morgan leFay) in the Series 3 episode `Excalibur` of the HTV show `Into the Labyrinth`. The episode portrays her trapping Merlin in a rock to force him to turn over the magical object he has been seeking throughout the series. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.217.71.57 (talk) 18:15, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Suggested modern references addition: Yu-Gi-Oh!

There is a card named "Lady of the Lake" in the trading card game Yu-Gi-Oh!, based on the Lady of the Lake in the Arthurian legend, and it works as a support card for Noble Knight cards made after the Knights of the Round Table. There is also a "Laval Lady on the Lake", possibly also based on the Arthurian Lady of the Lake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.62.181.245 (talk) 13:37, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

A section doesn't make sense

The end of the section "In medieval literature", starting with "According to the Vulgate Merlin..." is written in a strange fashion and is not coherent. 202.165.84.94 (talk) 03:15, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

It reads like someone who doesn't speak English very well misquoted Christopher Bruce's Dictionary of Arthurian Names. I fixed the language and added a ref. Cagwinn (talk) 18:47, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

What does this sentence mean: "The continuation post-vulgata Merlin describes how he killed her lover to be with another man, but then he was beheaded by this man to be a murderess." rowley (talk) 02:43, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Your defamation

It's actually your nonsense to,think that you have exclusive right to publish slanted propaganda presenting post-Celtic legacy of the lady of,the lake , the goddess culture of the celts and this prior. It is also a breach of international law agai st freedom of expression via your censorship and you are also preventing indigenous Celtic people fro fully expressing and publicizing their spiritual,lineage by your conditions and taking over so,d use of the term lady of the lake for your own fantasy fiction publication purposes. As a lawyer I perceive my right to make a full complaint to Wikipedia and publicize to,other indigenous Celts your act of ignorant power based intros. You do not hold exclusive legal right to the lady of the lake title I. Public domain. Bottom line you are breaking g the law. I have two international law degrees. Vivienne Tobassa (talk) 10:56, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Go troll some place else, please. Cagwinn (talk) 17:29, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

You've got to be kidding. 47.138.94.52 (talk) 07:00, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Lady of the Lake/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

start class marked because would like at least 3 references. Nice start. Goldenrowley 02:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 02:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 21:33, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

The article fails to even mention connections to Lancelot in the article body (only in the lead)

And which is where it should be explained. It also fails the to mention the rivalry/enmity with Morgan (also in Malory), among other things. --94.246.150.68 (talk) 13:13, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Another problem: does not even say where she first appeared, and what were the origins. --94.246.150.68 (talk) 13:16, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Speaking of which, "Gwragedd Annwn, Welsh lake fairies" and "Myddfai, site of a non-Arthurian "Lady of the Lake" legend" from "see also" should be probably in the article body. --94.246.150.68 (talk) 13:29, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Also it's not nearly as awful here as it was the crap in Morded's "in later works", but these bullet-point lists of modern appearances in various articles should be replaced by prose based on references discussing this aspect (like books and/or journal articles). But that's not really as important as the things above. --94.246.150.68 (talk) 13:35, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

Shouldn't "Nymue" be standarized to "Nimue"?

It's almost always Nimue elsewehre. Well, I'll just do it. --94.246.150.68 (talk) 12:45, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Looks like "nymph" but with the last two letters replaced. Booger-mike (talk) 00:43, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

it should be nymph, as Limnaea and Limnatis are ephithets of Artemis, from the Peloponnese region, called “lady of the lake”. her “domain” included nymphs and naiads, so it connects Rotanevi (talk) 07:53, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

"Furthermore, Malory starts to break Nimue out of the stereotypical female role in Arthurian literature: instead of serving the plot only as a temptress, Nimue becomes a recognizable force for good." etc.

Isn't she already very active as court sorceress for Arthur in the prior works? It's all there is very essay-like and cites no sources, while there's obviously a lot of literature on the subject. I removed it. --94.246.150.68 (talk) 00:14, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

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Lack of References

I am a little surprised by how few citations there are for this article when there are several references to books and stories. The Lady of the Lake is a well known character, by modern standards, of Arthurian legend. There is religious connotations associated with her, there are literary connotations with her, so there ought to be plenty of sources. Allencr10 (talk) 17:05, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

As you know or not, no one's really editing Wikipedia these days other than political warriors fighting political battles of various sorts. So if you want to have more written you've got to write it yourself. I've already expanded this article a lot, but I mostly write about Morgan le Fay most of all. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 07:15, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Suggested Modern Reference

The 1960 Learner & Loewe musical Camelot includes the character Nimue and she even has a song called "Follow Me," performed in Act I. In the play (and later the film adaptation), Arthur "tells Guinevere the story of how he pulled the sword from the stone and became king, and she finally agrees to marry him. The wizard Merlyn is amused by this development, but his joy turns to sorrow as his memories of the future begin to fade. He realizes that Nimue, a beautiful water nymph, has come to draw him into her cave for an eternal sleep ("Follow Me"). He begs Nimue for answers, as he has forgotten if he has warned Arthur about two important individuals, Lancelot and Mordred. His memories fade permanently, though, and he is led away."<https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Camelot_(musical)> — Preceding unsigned comment added by Volantiad (talk • contribs) 20:53, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Does the legend of King Arthur mirror advancements in sword technology

This could be a stretch, but could the legend of King Arthur be a reference some of the (at the time) secret advancements in sword technology: - Merlin = wizard blacksmith? Arthur drawing the sword from the stone = the secret advance of drawing (smithing) the sword out of steel rather than casting it? Throwing the sword to the lady of the lake = Quenching a sword to give it optimum strength and flexibility, preventing it breaking?

Tusk Bilasimo (talk) 12:31, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

No. Please note that you are blending different tales written at different times by different people. Robert de Boron invented the "sword in the stone" - but, to be more accurate, it was a sword in an anvil on top of a stone and (according to Robert de Boron), Merlin didn't create this miracle, God did (he says the clergy of the Britons prayed to God on Christmas for him to send the Britons a king, and asked for a sign; the sword in the anvil on the stone then appeared in the churchyard at the break of dawn). The symbology here is very clearly medieval Christian and has nothing to do with sword making techniques. Robert did not write about the Lady of the Lake and she only starts appearing in later stories written by other French authors. Cagwinn (talk) 20:20, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Species

What is she? A goddess? Witch? Fairy? What? Booger-mike (talk) 00:43, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

There are various versions. Also, similar to the various mythologies, the distinction may not be exactly clear. SNAAAAKE!! (talk) 10:25, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Suggested modern reference

Shouldn't the last novel of the Witcher Saga by Andrzej Sapkowski be mentioned? It is even called "The Lady of the Lake" and the story features a character named Nimue living by a lake, which is obviously a reference to the Arthurian Nimue/Lady of the Lake.

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/The_Lady_of_the_Lake_(Sapkowski_novel)

Eisfuechsin (talk) 22:45, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

You don't need to ask, you know. You could just make the edit. If nobody objects, it won't be reverted. I'm not personally familiar with the Witcher Saga, but that sounds like a reasonable addition to me. Glennglazer (talk) 23:21, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Deletions

It's simply absurd. You can now just as well just delete everything because right now it's a list that doesn't explain anything about how her character is being treated in relation to the legendary character. You made it into a bullet list of one-sentence trivia and "citation needed" markings for nothings.

You also deleted the illustrations for no reason.

I'd appreciate if you restored everything and put citation needed marks where they actually belong. But where they really belong (things that are just bit in the plot), after reading carefully, not randomly as you did.

One of your random deletions was for example of the incredibly famous line in the Monty Python movie, after removing the exploration it's a line and she doesn't appear there as a character actually. Search this line in engines like Google Books or Google Scholar to see how iconic it is. You made it into not just trivia, but also confusing and potentially misleading. You also made almost all of the rest just irrevelant by being similarly uninformative.

Or let me rework it without disrupting me.

I guess someone else can also revert you, after which I might start working on making it better.

And about that iconic line: even here in this very page it's talked about in #Nothing on Monty Python?.

Update: I will restore the version before the deletions, but vastly revised (errors corrected, content rewritten with things added and others removed, added some sourced commentary on issues beyond mere plot or casting) and leave it as work in progress for the others to follow up on that. I'm working on it but will go live only once I'm ready to make it actually different enough.

Took a while but my part is done, for now. Much more can be written about The Mists of Avalon in particular, I didnt even really go here because it's a big hole Maybe another time. WIP Tagged if you want to add something to that.

Vietnamese legend of Le Loi and Heaven's Will

Interesting how the Lady of the Lake legend is very similar to a Vietnamese legend regarding King Le Loi receiving a magical sword, "Heaven's Will" from a turtle god called Kim Qui who lived in a lake. The king also returned the sword to the turtle once he finished using it. 47.138.94.52 (talk) 07:08, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Cursed

found one error in the post about the serie Cursed, it is said both Nimue and the sword falls down the waterfall in the last episode. Not correct, only Nimue falls, instead Merklin takes the sword and destroys the incoming enemies. 2001:999:504:DEF2:B09F:2C51:BA76:43D9 (talk) 09:33, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

For almost 3 months there was "mermaid" in the lead

She's never explicitly a mermaid. It could be sort of implied in Lanzelet, maybe, but that's about it. 94.254.153.35 (talk) 22:28, 20 September 2024 (UTC)