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Talk:Ladies of Llangollen/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Genealogy

William Ponsonby,
1st Viscount Duncannon
(1659-1724)
Brabazon Ponsonby,
1st Earl of Bessborough
(1679-1758)		Major-Geneneral
Henry Ponsonby
(1680/1713-1745)
William Ponsonby,
2nd Earl of Bessborough
(1704-1793)		Chambré Brabazon Ponsonby
(d. 1762)
Frederick Ponsonby,
3rd Earl of Bessborough
(1758-1844)		Sarah Ponsonby
(d. 1831)
Lady Caroline Lamb
(d. 1828)

-- Worobiew (talk) 20:28, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Romantic Friendship, Not Lesbianism

This article needs to be edited to change the way it deals with the argument that the Ladies were "lesbian". The Laides themselves denied this, and in fact I am not aware of any evidence that their relationship was sexual. Yet the article refers to them as though they were in fact lesbians. We must be careful not to impose modern ideas about sexual identity on people from the past.

In previous eras in history, it was more common for heterosexuals to express their affection for friends of the same gender in more passionate terms than we are accustomed to today. Indeed, same-gendered friends would often have an emotionally and physically intimate relationship (but without any sexual content). This was known as "romantic friendship". However, since the Victorian era (with its rigid attitude towards the sexual), such relationships have declined, and there is a homophobic tendency to brand people who seek intimate (though non-sexual) relationships with people of the same gender as gay. This is something I regard as deeply unfortunate; it stems from our tendency to rigidly delineate what is "gay" and what is "straight". In some ways, our modern society is very insecure in terms of sexuality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.90.66 (talk) 07:09, 21 May 2009 (UTC)


Even though this is an old comment, I wanted to point out that their denial of being lesbians is hardly surprising even if they were lesbian. To admit it publicly would have been very dangerous even for people of their wealth. Lesbian sex had unclear legality, and it's hardly surprising that most people did not want to be the "test case" for something that could easily landed them in jail and/or declared insane. We don't seem to have specific proof of a physical relationship, as the current version of the article states. There is certainly indirect evidence, certainly enough to mention the strong possibility. Similarly, we don't have specific proof a physical relationship in plenty of hetero relationships from the same era. 66.90.167.144 (talk) 13:38, 20 May 2019 (UTC)


Some consider Butler and Ponsonby's relationship to be a Boston marriage, or a romantic relationship between two women who chose to live together and have "marriage-like relationships". Others conclude that the two had a non-sexual romantic friendship.
Can't see the difference. Valetude (talk) 10:29, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
It is inherently confusing, I agree. I understand "Boston marriage" to be a phrase used by outsiders or historians to describe two women committed to living their lives together. Short of witnesses catching them in flagrante, or the discovery of explicit coded diaries like those of "Gentleman Jack" Anne Lister, it is always going to be a matter of speculation whether expressions of affection were "innocent" or sexual. That goes for any pair/couple in a "marriage-like relationship" - is the emphasis on the commitment to each other, the exclusion of others, the passion or the practicalities? To improve this article, we'd have to go back to the sources and see what particular historians say. --Carbon Caryatid (talk) 20:12, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

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