Talk:Lacrosse/Archive 5

Archive 1

←

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Rules

Give better explanation of some of the rules. Laxman4life (talk) 00:48, 27 April 2016 (UTC)

Men's field bias and other problems

The most important issue to correct in this article is its thoroughly bias towards the men's field game. Since men's field, women's field and box lacrosse all have different rules, equipment and positions, it is important not use just details of the men's field game in common sections, especially the lead and infobox.

There are multiple other problem areas, but rather than list them here, I'll be bold and respond to any issues in this talk section. I will try to break up big edits into chunks and provide good edit summaries. I'm happy to collaborate and compromise with other editors on my changes. My hope to is prod other editors to get involved and improve the article. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 19:12, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Citation to be used later: Donald M. Fisher (2002). Lacrosse: A History of the Game. JHU Press. p. 125. ISBN 978-0-8018-6938-9. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 20:39, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

History section

After the native game content, the modern section is completely dominated by men's field. The whole section needs work, as does the main article History of lacrosse, but I'm going to leave it for now. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 20:59, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Versions and Levels sections

Versions are currently men's field, box and women's. Each is probably too long and contains too detailed info. The Main Article links should allow for a shorter summary in this article. And an intercrosse section should be added. Some of the non-generic content can be shifted to the Level sections.

I am going to delete the pre-middle school, middle school and high school sub-sections. I don't think there is worthwhile content to relate, the general field lacrosse section covers youth and high school play. But if someone thought there is something for a Youth and/or High School section, then please add it.

The levels of play could be College, Professional, and International. As mentioned above, some content in the Versions sections should move to the appropriate level. The women's game needs to be added to these sections as well. (Of course, the entire article besides the international section is going to be dominated by the US and Canada, but that's the state of the game right now, not just a bias). - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 21:27, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

I'll leave the top-level section heading for now, but suggest the following outline after History and Versions of lacrosse:

• Levels of lacrosse
  • College (maybe no sub headings but brief description and links to men's and women's, NCAA and club)
  • Professional
    • MLL
    • NLL
    • United Women's Lacrosse League
  • International
    • Olympics
    • FIL
    • Non-North American lacrosse (different name, many one section, maybe many)

- Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 21:42, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Equipment section

The equipment is different for each of the four versions, so I suggest deleting this section and covering equipment in the version sub-sections. Not much good general content in the current section. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 21:45, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Parked material

This is from the History section, that could be better used in the College and international sections:

At the highest amateur level, it is represented by the collegiate NCAA Division I in the United States. The first collegiate lacrosse program was established by New York University in 1877. Nearly 100 years later, the 1971 tournament was the first Men's Lacrosse Championship sponsored by the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA).

In other countries, the sport is also played at a high level on the amateur level by the Australian Lacrosse League, the Canadian University Field Lacrosse Association, and club lacrosse leagues internationally.

In the summer of 2001, a men's professional field lacrosse league, known as Major League Lacrosse (MLL), was inaugurated in the United States. Initially starting with three teams, the MLL has grown to a current total of nine clubs located in major metropolitan areas in the United States. On July 4, 2008, Major League Lacrosse set the professional lacrosse attendance record: 20,116 fans attended a game at Invesco Field in Denver, Colorado.

- Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 20:36, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

From the Field lacrosse section, for olympic and professional sections

Lacrosse at the Olympics was a medal-earning sport in the 1904 and 1908 Summer Olympics. Lacrosse was a demonstration sport in the 1928 and 1932 Summer Olympics, as well as at the 1948 Summer Olympics. The men's professional Major League Lacrosse has used different field lacrosse rules from the international, college, and high school programs. With intentions to increase scoring, the league employed a sixty-second shot clock and a two–point goal for shots taken outside a designated perimeter. In 2007, the MLL was bolstered by a ten-year television contract with ESPN.

- Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 18:46, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Removed Pan American Games section. Too specific for this article. Maybe Field lacrosse or FIL artices.

;Pan American Games In spite of being one of the oldest sports in the continent, lacrosse has never being included as a Pan American sport. According to the Pan American Sports Organization, the number of countries enrolled in its member associations is not enough. There are now 5 full members of FIL (Canada, United States, Haudenosaunee or Iroquois, Argentina, and Bermuda) and 8 provisional members (Mexico, Colombia, Haiti, Peru, Costa Rica, Guatemala, Puerto Rico and Jamaica). However, the Haudenosaunee nation is not a member of the Pan American Sports Organization. There have been criticisms for the exclusion of native American sports like lacrosse and Ulama or Mesoamerican Ballgame. To calm the criticism, lacrosse was included in the opening ceremony at the 2015 Pan American Games in Toronto.

- Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 22:29, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

From the History section, to be used in the Olympics section:

Lacrosse was contested for medals in the 1904 and 1908 Summer Olympics with teams from Canada, the United States, and Great Britain. It was contested as a demonstration sport in the 1928, 1932, and 1948 Olympics. On each occasion, a playoff was held in the United States to determine which team would go to the Olympics; each time the playoffs were won by the Blue Jays of Johns Hopkins University.

- Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 05:02, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

From the box section for field and NLL sections:

Since 1985, when the Canadian University Field Lacrosse Association (CUFLA) began operating a collegiate men's league, field lacrosse has witnessed a revival in Canada. There are now 12 varsity teams. In 1994, Canada declared lacrosse its national summer sport in the National Sports Act (Bill C-212). In 1987, a men's professional box lacrosse league was started, called the Eagle Pro Box Lacrosse League. This league changed its name to the Major Indoor Lacrosse League, then later to the National Lacrosse League. It grew to encompass men's lacrosse clubs in 14 cities throughout the United States and Canada.

- Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 05:22, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

From women's lacrosse section for international section:

Internationally, the game is commonly played in British girls' independent schools. While a minor sport in Australia, it is played to a very high standard at the elite level. Women's lacrosse has seen significant growth in Europe since the beginning of the 21st century, particularly in Germany, the Czech Republic, and the Netherlands. Japan entered its first team into the World Cup in 1993, and South Korea followed suit in 2009. In 2012, the first Israeli international team competed in the European Championships in Amsterdam.The Swedish National team took part for the first time in the 2013 World Cup. The Australia national squad won the 2005 Women's Lacrosse World Cup. The 2009 Women's World Cup was played in Prague, Czech Republic, won by the United States, and the 2013 World Cup was played in Oshawa, Canada, again won by the United States.

- Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 05:33, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

History issue

There is decision to be made on how to treat the history of the game. Currently, the history section entirely focuses on men's field lacrosse. For women's and box, their histories could be integrated into the main history section, or be placed in their own respective sections. Arguments could be made for both paths. The women's game more faithfully preserves the native game, so could naturally fit into the main history section. And box could be added so that readers get an integrated view of the development of the different versions of the sport. But it could also make the narrative of the history section long and clunky and it could force explaining rules that would better go in the respective sections. I'm up in the air. Anybody out there want to chime in? - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 05:39, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

History source: https://filacrosse.com/fil/origin-history/ - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 04:21, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

European history source: http://europeanlacrosse.org/?page_id=1356 - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 21:10, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Lacrosse/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: MX (talk · contribs) 05:20, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Review

 Doing... Hello. This article has been in the GAN queue since November 2017 so I'll be happy to review it. Initial comments: there are a lot of unsourced paragraphs/sentences (some that I just added tags for) that need to be addressed immediately. My review consists of two parts; in part 1, I review each section and give grammar corrections/suggestions for the nominator to fix. In part 2, I check for close-paraphrasing and go into each source to see if the source supports the text. This is why we need to find the sources to the tags immediately, since this may delay or disqualify the article. The article is somewhat long so give me several days to review. Once I post back again here, that will be part 1. MX (✉ • ✎) 05:20, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

• I've decided to wait until the "citation needed" tags are addressed before starting the review. I'm worried the text might be removed / drastically changed if new sources are introduced. I'll give this 7 days before failing. I've left a post in the article's talkpage to let other watchers know the situation. MX (✉ • ✎) 05:27, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

• @Mnnlaxer: Hi there. Would you be able to get to resolve the CN tags soon? I'd love to have that in place before I start the review process. Thanks, and let me know how I can help. MX (✉ • ✎) 04:01, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I'll get to it tonight. Thanks! - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 20:44, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

I looked and there are too many for me to deal with right now. Please put this on hold or retract the nomination. Thanks for trying - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 15:31, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

@Mnnlaxer: No worries. Thank you for letting me know. I'll be happy to review this article again in more detail in the future, just ping me. Good luck and reach out if you ever need me. MX (✉ • ✎) 16:50, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Assistance needed: GA review started

Hello fellow page watchers. I started the GA review for this article here. I noticed that the nominator Mnnlaxer has been active on Wikipedia on and off this year, so I don't know if he/she will be able to take care of the "citation needed" tags and the review. Is someone willing to address any issues that arise from a GAN review? I'd hate to see the article fail after sitting in the GAN queue since November 2017. MX (✉ • ✎) 05:24, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

• I've decided to hold-off on the review until the "citation needed" tags are addressed. As protocol, I'll leave this open for 7 days before failing the article. I'm doing this because I'm worried the text might change drastically if / when the references are introduced. Thank you, MX (✉ • ✎) 05:29, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks again. I have been on/off, but I will be on for this for sure. I'll work on the citation needed tags soon. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 14:26, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

@Mnnlaxer: Thank you. Please ping me in the review page once you're done. Do you think you can get this done in less than 7 days? I'd love to start a thorough review after that. MX (✉ • ✎) 03:10, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

There are too many for me to deal with right now. I think way too many period. Most can be remedied by moving citations to the end of a paragraph, or reciting the same source, such as the rule-book. I'll all for citations, but I think their application here was over-zealous. That said, I'll work on it, but best to pull the GA nomination or put it on hold. Thanks for your willingness to take this on. - Mnnlaxer | talk | stalk 15:30, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

Gooey and ideological

"Early lacrosse was characterized by deep spiritual involvement, befitting the spirit of combat in which it was undertaken."

Rather preachy and overly sincere for an encyclopedia. For those who don't subscribe to this spiritual samurai fight club stuff, it sounds rather pious. 62.167.47.56 (talk) 19:58, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 May 2019

Date should be changed from as early as the 17th century to the 12th century as 1100 AD is mentioned in article and 1100 AD was not in the 17th century 72.55.232.150 (talk) 17:07, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

There seemed to be a discrepancy between this article and History of Lacrosse, which specifically states that the 1100 AD games were not lacrosse, but rather a precursor that eventually led to lacrosse. I've modified the article accordingly. NiciVampireHeart 10:08, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 May 2019

I have been playing lacrosse for 9 years (women's) and think I could make some helpful edits. I you need any further information contact me on wikipedia. Cue T 11729 (talk) 15:44, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Not done: requests for decreases to the page protection level should be directed to the protecting admin or to Wikipedia:Requests for page protection if the protecting admin is not active or has declined the request. - FlightTime (open channel) 15:45, 26 May 2019 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 2 February 2021 and 14 May 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Waltersaraceni.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 02:05, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 October 2019

Line 20 of the History section, change 'England' to 'Britain'.

In Line 20 of the 'History' section it refers to English speaking countries playing the game by 1900 and includes England. A few lines later it refers to the women's game being created in Scotland in 1890. I suggest the first line is probably intended to say Britain rather than England or at least would be more accurate if it was to read as such. 185.235.98.94 (talk) 10:26, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: Except, if you read List of the oldest lacrosse teams, there's no mention of any other British country apart from England. There's no harm in being specific. NiciVampireHeart 22:20, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Lacrosse/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: SilkTork (talk · contribs) 10:42, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

I'll start reading over the next few days and then begin to make comments. I am normally a slow reviewer - if that is likely to be a problem, please let me know as soon as possible. I tend to directly do copy-editing and minor improvements as I'm reading the article rather than list them here; if there is a lot of copy-editing to be done I may suggest getting a copy-editor (on the basis that a fresh set of eyes is helpful). Anything more significant than minor improvements I will raise here. I see the reviewer's role as collaborative and collegiate, so I welcome discussion regarding interpretation of the criteria. SilkTork (talk)

Tick box

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose is clear and concise, without copyvios, or spelling and grammar errors:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. Has an appropriate reference section:

   B. Citation to reliable sources where necessary:

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

Comments on GA criteria

Pass

• Has a reference section. SilkTork (talk) 16:31, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
• Stable. There were problems earlier in the year, but since the article was semi-protected it has been stable. SilkTork (talk) 16:35, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
• Images have appropriate copyright stats tags. SilkTork (talk) 22:46, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
• Copyvio checked. Nothing significant turned up. Allowable use of similar information from uslacrosse.org/sites/default/files/public/documents/rules/2016-womens-rulebook.pdf. SilkTork (talk) 10:00, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Query

• Prose is not clear and readable. There is no real flow to the text - it does read in places like notes toward an article rather than a finished article. Sometimes there is a dump of information which is hard to digest: "The European Lacrosse Federation (ELF) was established in 1995 and held the first European Lacrosse Championships that year. Originally an annual event, it is now held every four years, in between FIL's men's and women's championships. In 2004, 12 men's and 6 women's teams played in the tournament, making it the largest international lacrosse event of the year. The last men's tournament was in 2016, when 24 countries participated. England won its ninth gold medal out of the ten tournaments played. 2015 was the last women's tournament, when 17 teams participated in the Czech Republic." We have a lot of numbers and dates compressed into a small space, as well as number and date related words: first, annual. The first sentence is about establishing the Federation, but the second sentence references an annual event, which must be the Championships. Such poor construction is present throughout the article. I would suggest a thorough copyedit - see Wikipedia:Basic copyediting. When the topic has been fully researched from detailed texts (rather than snippets copied from often dubious quality websites), and the article has been built up so there is an appropriate body of information giving a clear understanding of the game, then get in touch with Wikipedia:WikiProject Guild of Copy Editors to request a copyedit. SilkTork (talk) 10:15, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Fail

• Broad coverage. The article is very thin, and comes across as notes toward an article, and has a number of gaps. I am left with more questions than answers. There isn't a section which describes what lacrosse is, though there are sections which describe the variations. This feels more like either a Start article: "Provides some meaningful content, but most readers will need more." Or a C class article: "Useful to a casual reader, but would not provide a complete picture for even a moderately detailed study." It perhaps fall somewhere between the two. SilkTork (talk) 03:12, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

• Reliable sources. Sources used are inadequate for a Good Article. The sources are mostly websites rather than reliable sources provided detailed and authoritative information. The websites will have got their information from a reliable source with a named author, and that is what our articles aim to do. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources for guidance on which sources are seen as reliable. SilkTork (talk) 03:12, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

• Lead. To meet GA criteria 1(b), which relates to specific manual of style guidelines, the article needs to comply with the advice in WP:LEAD. That is, in addition to being an introduction, the lead needs to be an adequate overview of the whole of the article. As a rough guide, each major section in the article should be represented with an appropriate summary in the lead. Also, the article should provide further details on all the things mentioned in the lead. And, the first few sentences should mention the most notable features of the article's subject - the essential facts that every reader should know. SilkTork (talk) 03:12, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

General comments

• The information in the second paragraph of the History section is sourced to STX, a retail website. The website gathered that information from several texts which they list. It would be better to cite the appropriate reliable source, not the shop. SilkTork (talk) 23:11, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
• The sources used are quite poor. For example, the source used to support that lacrosse is "The Creator's Game" is a cultural/community website which has very little information on lacrosse - oneidaindiannation, yet that information is readily available in several informative texts: "The Creator's Game", American Indian Lacrosse, Lacrosse: A History of the Game, etc. SilkTork (talk) 23:22, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

• The prose and contents of the article read more like notes toward an article rather than a finished article. There are several sparse two or three line paragraphs. SilkTork (talk) 03:00, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

On hold

I have a number of concerns with the article in terms of depth of coverage, prose, and poor quality sourcing. I think there is information here which can be used to held build the article, though fresh research of good quality sources is needed to put flesh on the bones. A period of planning and deciding what information is needed (this is a significant topic and would benefit from a period of serious reflection on structure and content), and then written up as best as possible before requesting a copyedit, and then resubmitting for GAN. In my experience, given the amount of material on the topic, this is likely to take some months rather than a few days; however, I have known articles to be turned around in a week or two with determined contributors so I will put on hold for seven days to give the nominator and interested contributors an opportunity to consider what they wish to do. My recommendation is to take the time to do it properly than try to rush it under the pressure of a GA review. SilkTork (talk) 10:33, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Fail

I am closing this GAN as not-listed. The issues not addressed, and only one edit has been made since putting the GA on hold. Once the issues have been resolved, the article can be nominated again. SilkTork (talk) 09:26, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 December 2019

Regarding protective equipment for both Mens' and Womens' codes, concussion has become a concern. Mouth protectors (guards) have been shown to be effective at reducing the chances and/or severity of concussion, and are now mandatory for all variants of the game.

For Mens' rules, See the Official FIL Rules book:

https://filacrosse.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/FIL-MF-RB-2019-2020A4v1.03.pdf

Specifically: Rule 17.1, mandating "mouth protector (mouth guard)"

For Womens' rules, see the FIL Official Rules Book:

https://filacrosse.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/2018-2019-Womens-Official-Rules-FINAL.pdf

Rule 6 E: " All players, including the goalkeeper, must properly wear a professionally manufactured intra-oral mouth guard that fully covers the upper teeth. [...] 2001:44B8:236:5800:EC4:7AFF:FE68:FA16 (talk) 03:26, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

 Not done. It's not clear what changes you want to make; please make a precise request. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 04:48, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 October 2020

pls advertise my discord server

https://discord.gg/redacted — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:80:8403:7E0:78D0:C3B2:C94D:C66B (talk) 15:43, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done No. Link redacted. Wikipedia is not for spam. Please go away. --DanielRigal (talk) 15:53, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 March 2021

In womens lacrosse, they wear mouth guards along with eye wear goggles as protection. Elgoline (talk) 20:25, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

That is already included in the article. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:31, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Start date of lacrosse and inclusion of sixes

Need to add Sixes to types of lacrosse as well as when Sixes will be in the olympics. They need to add 10 on 10 into the olympics now.

Need to change start date to as early as the 10th Century because there has been some evidence or lacrosse equipment as early as the 900s Ianwilde16 (talk) 03:25, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 December 2021

this is wrong you ar estupid — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.217.6.249 (talk) 23:37, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Communication and Culture

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 2 February 2021 and 14 May 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Waltersaraceni (article contribs).