Talk:Lab Pe Aati Hai Dua

Created This Page on Wikipedia, added the poem in English and urdu language.

Mahtab

I love this naat......lab pe aati h dua — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.102.37.104 (talk) 06:49, 1 July 2014 (UTC) sdgsdgsdgsdg sdgsdgsdgsdhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhfsdSWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.208.205.166 (talk) 12:21, 26 October 2019 (UTC)

Removal of devanagari

This poem is recited by millions of people. Removing the devnagri transliteration is not doing anyone a favour. It is just information about the poem, and shall remain on the page TheEshanKumar (talk) 23:09, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

We are not here on Wikipedia to do social service to the "thousands" of people who recite this poem according to your claim and know only Devanagari. Rather, we are here to present a poem written in Urdu in the common method employed for languages that are not English: present the original script, present the English transliteration, and the English translation. The Devanagari translation and transliteration can be added to the Hindi Wikipedia. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:36, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Similarly whatever controversies are roiling India, and involve this song, are notable for India, but not for this song and this page. They may be added to the Wikipedia pages on the recent protests in India. There are many such pages. This is a dua, a prayer. It is not a song of love or a protest. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:44, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

The controversies are related to the poem. So is the In Popular Culture section. It has been verified with reliable sources. And it is giving information. It is unrelated to current protests, and it would be helpful if you read the provides sources. The popular culture section does not undermine the status of this Dua. It gives more infromation of it's usage in popular culture. TheEshanKumar (talk) 01:14, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

It does not make any difference. If there is some controversy in India about a sonnet of Shakespeare, we cannot put that in the FA William Shakespeare. It is not notable for that page, only for controversies in India. Everything that can be cited is not notable for inclusion in Wikipedia. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:36, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Actually it can be cited. And this is highly relevant as the poem was written while Iqbal was a citizen of British India, and his work still remains popular to this day. And talking about Shakespeare, if his work is adapted in an Indian film, it will be added to that film's Wikipedia page. And controversies are looked not only from the country of origin, but every where. EG. When da Vinci code was banned in India, it was added to the Wikipedia page. TheEshanKumar (talk) 03:34, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

All controversies shall be included, regardless of their country of origin. If you find some other controversies relating to this poem, feel free to add it. But please don't remove these changes, as they are justified. They give more information, which is directly related to this article. TheEshanKumar (talk) 03:38, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Given that this poem was written in colonial India before the standardization of Hindi-Urdu, it makes sense that both Devanagari and Nastaleeq should be included in this article. As Hindi and Urdu are standardized registers of the same language of Hindustani/Hindi-Urdu, according to linguists, the poem is widely read in the Devanagari script in India. I, therefore, don't see an issue with User:TheEshanKumar's edits on the Lab Pe Aati Hai Dua article. What are your thoughts User:Kwamikagami and User:Austronesier? I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 10:17, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Per WP:INDICSCRIPT, we only use the original script, which in this case is Urdu. Nagari doesn't add anything to the article. It's unfortunate, but the alternative to to remove the scripts entirely, which would be worse.

See Wikipedia talk:Noticeboard for India-related topics for better attended discussion there. — kwami (talk) 13:48, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

Mention of private schools of privilege in India

PublicusTacitus has added a sentence about this song having been sung in some privileged private schools in India. In my view, this is UNDUE for this du'a's page. It can be added to the schools' pages, but not here.

In an interview with Waleed Iqbal (the Allama's grandson) conducted by Waseem Rashid (Editor Urdu) of the program Naib Hain Hum), it is stated that the song has been sung for a long time in Urdu-medium schools in India. (Please go to the 9:45 timestamp in this video).

This is an Islamic du'a (or prayer of supplication) and has remained so in the hearts and minds of most of who are familiar with it. There is comportment associated with its recitation. In Islam, it is required for those who so supplicate to Allah to show the proper form of respect. See for example, Islamia Girls Senior Secondary School, Malerkotla, Punjab, India. In Pakistan, where the Urdu language is more widely spoken, and Urdu-language ability greater, it is commonly sung at morning assembly: e.g in the Azan Colony School in Jauharabad in Punjab, Pakistan; or Government School, Gilgit.

As the du'a or hymn is beautifully written, it has had an appeal for many outside Islam; schools have given it their ecumenical interpretations. The private schools currently in the lead are not the only such; there are many others, such as, for example, City's School, a private school in Bhit Shah, Sind, Pakistan.

The Imam of the Jama Masjid, Delhi, Muhibullah Nadwi, sang it in an English-medium primary school in India in the 1940s. Even earlier, the du'a was broadcast over the All India Radio, Lucknow, a few months after Iqbal's death in 1938.

The private schools that are currently being mentioned in the lead do have a long tradition of singing this song, as well as other songs rooted in religious pluralism, but to highlight such renderings is to assign undue weight to these interpretations. For the vast majority of school children in the subcontinent, the song is sung with the emotion and meaning accorded it, for example, by these children of the Rabia Memorial School, Fatehpur, Mau, UP, India. The du'a is not recalled as it was by these alumni of Doon School.

Wikipedia has a non-negotiable principle of due weight, which requires us to present the song as it is sung on the subcontinent and to mention where it is sung, broadly speaking, irrespective of the vagaries of access to musical instruments, Engish-language instruction, or to the World Wide Web these schools might offer, or to that of parental income they might reflect. I will rewrite the lead in a WP:DUE manner. I'm on vacation and only logging in once a week. If editors are unhappy with my edits, I request that we arrive at the inevitably slow consensus here than edit warring and talking in edit summaries, something of which I myself stand guilty. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:01, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

PS As often happens, when you begin to write, the sources take over and the content moves in unforeseen directions. I've added some material, reinstated some other including one of the Indian private schools, The Doon School, but with a twist, because it had a solid source. I hope this is acceptable. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:00, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Your time and effort in finding sources and rewriting the lead are much appreciated. I would just point out that the Doon reference you've included is on page 104, not 103. I'm not sure why including "it makes no mention of Islam" is necessary, or if it even makes sense. The Srivastava source itself says (I have the text) that the assembly uses a mix of Christian hymns and prayers, Kabir's poetry, Guru Nanak's bhajans. Given the syncretic nature of the ritual, obviously there can be no specific, or overt, mentions of any religion, let alone Islam. The YouTube link you've shared is not entirely representative of the usage either, because in that particular context it is being sung as a nostalgic ode by alumni with drinks in hand, not as a dua. This is closer to the original context: Song No. 3 - Doon School Choir and Orchestra or this another Iqbal poem, Chishti ne jis zameen mein paigham-e-haq sunaya; Nanak ne jis chaman mein vahdat ka git gaya or "The land where Chishti declared the message of truth; The blooming garden where Nanak sang the song of Oneness...". So the need for inclusion of a rider that the assembly makes no mention of Islam is not immediately apparent. Thanks, PublicusTacitus (talk) 09:47, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction.

The text paraphrased is at the bottom of page 104: "The peculiarity of an Indian "secular" ceremony, which makes no references to Islam is, of course, too obvious to labour." (at the bottom of page 104)

For the vast majority of people on the subcontinent with childhood memories of "Bachche ki du'a," it cannot be sung as a nostalgic ode with drinks in hand. That would be unthinkable. It would not be in the cards, even in bad dreams. The videos contrast those for whom it is a prayer—who are learning Urdu (and likely Arabic as well for the Quran), who can pronounce "ghariboN," an Arabic word beginning with the Urdu/Persian/Arabic letter ghain, even as little children—and those who are pronouncing it as an ordinary gaaf (g), in a careless memory of just another morning assembly song, of a faraway "secular time," in Srivastava's phrasing of page 106. In addition, the little children in the various schools above, are all careful to pronounce the second "rah" in the last line as "reh," because the meter demands it, and because they have been taught so by teachers for whom these nuances matter in prayer. These are missing in all Doon School renditions whether by students or alums, in inebriated states or sober.

I had heard several Doon School songs, including "Hindustani bachchoN ka qaumi geet," which you reference above. There too, there is a chasm between the supremely indifferent Doon School rendition—whose singers cannot pronounce Chishti or paigham, and whose overseeing school authorities have shortened the song—and the traditional renderings, be they from an Islamic school in Karnataka, Azalea Public School in the village of Balasath, Bihar, or even the girl at the Iqbal Academy in Delhi only the latter half of whose singing was recorded. Having an orchestra has no bearing on a song. Doon has plentiful instruments; the village school has none. But the two village girls are doing a much better job of representing the song. That is the irony.

"Secular" renditions of religious songs are not problematic because their singers do not have the right to so render the songs. They become problematic only when the upholders of these secular traditions attempt to claim the mantle of the song. Srivastava talks about these secular memories on page 106:

"The several images which constitute the morning assembly carry very specific religious undertones and evoke the punctilios of concrete religious worlds — usually Hindu and Christian and, sometimes, though rarely, Muslim. The transformation of these discrete parts into one continuous narrative occurs in the process of the performance of the ritual, where ‘assembly time’ and ‘assembly space’ appropriate and negate the specific religious nature of these several events such that the participants are left with the memory of ‘secular time’."

It is very important for us to note in this Wikipedia article that what has been sung in Doon School is a little different in emotion and understanding, inclusion and exclusion, from what has been sung is most schools; otherwise, WP:UNDUE would entail not including anything from Doon School in the article. In other words, Doon School becomes notable only in the context of a particular kind of Indian secularism. I will not be logging in until a week from now (i.e. July 16). I request that you not make any changes in the article, nor leave posts on my talk page. Do so only here. Thank you for the correction. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:57, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Your explanation makes sense Fowler&fowler, thank you! I will only make one final suggestion, but you may ignore it. Maybe rather than spotlighting the non-Islamic nature of the assembly, the article should, in true spirit of neutrality, highlight its secularism. If I were a Hindu fundamentalist, my feathers would be ruffled more by reading that the dua is commonly sung in secular environments. Stating that it is recited in a non-Islamic environment might lead them to shrug "oh, that's okay then", and would also detract from the neutral point we're trying to make here. But please feel free to take the final call. Thank you and regards, PublicusTacitus (talk) 14:36, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Done. Best, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:26, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

References

Pinging Fowler&fowler here as this prayer has recently been in the news in India and a user has repeatedly removed well-sourced content that was added by you after a prolonged discussion. BahrdozsBulafka (talk) 07:46, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Metrical structure

Hello, Can we add 'metrical structure' of the poem into article? I don't have any source for that. But, as I am closely associated with the subject, I know which meter it is. Pinging @Fowler&fowler:. Thanks. --Gazal world (talk) 14:27, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

If you don't have a source, perhaps you should add your proposed text here first, and let the discussions follow. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:33, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Pinging TheAafi for comment. --Gazal world (talk) 22:45, 30 December 2020 (UTC)

Gazal world Urdu literature is one of my major subjects in the University, and I would be glad to offer any help with sources. But as far as your proposed version is concerned, it looks fine to me. Regards, ─ The Aafī on Mobile ^(talk) 04:07, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

Proposed version

The poem consists of 6 couplets and has been composed in the Persian beher (meter) Ramal. The rhyme scheme is AA BB CC DD etc.

Syllabic structure of a verse

Stress	–	u	–	–	u	u	–	–	u	u	–	–	–	–
Syllable	lab	pe	aa	ti	hai	du	a	ban	ke	ta	man	na	me	ri

[For more description of Ramal metre See (6.1 == The meter list > no. 18)]

What you think ? --Gazal world (talk) 17:37, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Please tell me translate lap e ati dua for me

Hello 2400:ADC5:112:6D00:2D56:33FF:F6C6:1293 (talk) 08:45, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Revert

Hi @Wareon and Akash aziz:, you have reverted my edit, but have given no explanation for it. Could you please explain how my edits were disruptive or removed "sourced content"? The 'sourced content' was a link to a YouTube video, isn't that just promotional content? And I don't see why my other changes warrant a revert. نعم البدل (talk) 13:09, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Pinging @Wareon and Akash aziz: once again, since no reply. نعم البدل (talk) 16:34, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

You removed sourced content and also removed a category by using misleading edit summaries. Wareon (talk) 17:58, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure what sourced content you're referring to? I removed the YouTube link, because I believe it goes against WP:Spam. As for the category - I'm not sure whether it's suitable/needed here, but I will leave that as a separate discussion. نعم البدل (talk) 21:33, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

@Wareon: Instead of just reverting my edit, please be specific - what is wrong with my edit? نعم البدل (talk) 21:33, 5 January 2023 (UTC)