Talk:La Coubre explosion

Untitled

Good show Polaris! Will fill in other details in a few days. El Jigue 3-4-06

Name of the ship

In search of a definitive source for the correct name of the ship in question, I have found a web site belonging to the French merchant marine, http://www.marine-marchande.com/moment51.htm. It provides the following information:

20 novembre 1948

Lancement à MONTREAL le 20 novembre 1948 par CANADIAN VICKERS du cargo LA BAULE pour la CGAM. Transféré à la TRANSAT, le 7 Juillet 1951 il est vendu le 30 décembre 1969 et devient le vénézuélien RORAIMA.

La série comprenait : LA BAULE, LA COUBRE, LA HAGUE, LA HEVE.

I hope that this resolves the matter of the name of this ship, i.e. La Coubre, as I cannot imagine what a better source for this information might be. Polaris999 07:21, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a definitive source, even though it seems to be a "barbarism" (bad pun) in French. However, some including a certain defrocked spook refer to the ship as Le Coubre [1]. Could you change the citation in the article I just inserted to your chosen format? By the way where was the Che during the second explosion? Going to try to link a certain group of dock workers considered by many as belonging to one of the most ruthless and secretive of AfroCuban cults. El Jigue 3-21-06

It may be that those who think "le" are thinking of the Spanish Le Cobre ? I see in French wikipedia [2] and also a forest in the same vicinity. -- Beardo 02:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The weaponry destroyed include FAL rifles and .308 caliber ammunition e.g. [3]. The Afro-Cuban dock workers were probably members of the Abakuá e.g. [4]. Jose Sendon, in my opinion a certifiable left wing crazy, reports that there were a large number of executions after the explosion [5], at the same site Miriam Mata who lived in relatively close Regla where that cult was very strong, states that these dock worker were not qualified to unload explosives El Jigue 3-21-06

The number of casualties given varies with source but it was well over a hundred [6].

Re: Where was Che during the second explosion? It is my understanding, based on hearsay, that he was attending to the wounded in a first aid punto that had been set up at a considerable distance from the ship. People at that punto were not injured by the second explosion. According to this information, the only ones who were killed or maimed by the second explosion were those whom the FAR had ordered to board the ship to search for more wounded and/or to try to prevent more explosions.

Re Che's medical school records, etc. I will be glad to put that footnote into the m:Cite.php format that is being used in the article. Perhaps the aside re the Sierra Maestra will need to go into a content note because it really doesn't belong in the section "Family heritage and early life". I am thinking about the best way to handle this. BTW the information concerning his academic career seems to mesh with what I have heard, i.e. that he did graduate but didn't complete either his internship or residency. If he had finished his internship, I think that he would have been qualified as a GP. Assuming that he didn't finish it, I do not know what his professional level or title would be and am trying to investigate this further.

Now, I would like to ask you an important question: In reading the book by Fursenko and Naftali, I was surprised to discover that they assert that Che was a "secret member of the PSP" which he supposedly joined in 1957 in order to be able to influence its decisions vis-a-vis the 26-J guerrillas. They also state that Raúl Castro was a secret member of the PSP, having been promoted into it from the Juventud — which I have heard before. The matter of Che's "secret membership" is repeated on different pages and even used to explain certain events, so it cannot be a typo. Therefore, I am wondering if you have heard anything that would refute or support their statement? Polaris999 00:12, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Alba (1968) talks about the red (overt) and black (covert) division of communist parties in Latin America. I feel certain that both the Che and Guevara were members in 1957, and perhaps the rumors of a homosexual alliance between them may have been cover (or cover and reality) to hide their political actions in this regard. Alba, Víctor 1968 Politics and the labor movement in Latin America. Stanford University Press, Stanford, California. ASIN B0006BNYGK That there were "black" communists in the Sierra seems to be correct since the old and dying one's are admitting it now and of course, personal observations seem to confirm this. You will have to read my book. You might read the citations to the Abakuá dockworkers they are not inserted arbitrarily, if anybody knows the truth of this whole matter it will be them and they are said to be a very secretive bunch. El Jigue 3-23-06

It occurred to me that the Abakuá would most probably be irritated to be told not to use a lighter to unload, and to take the cargo directly at the docks, and then be somewhat angered when about a 100 or so were sent immediately the skies to meet Chango. Now one can understand why there may have been executions. Perhaps there is a scholarly book in all of this. El Jigue 3-23-06

Room for Improvement

The last two paragraphs strike me as rather poorly worded. Likewise the numerous outside links could be put in the References or External Links sections or otherwise cleaned up --Peter Robinett 14:41, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this article is definitely in need of a major clean-up. Since I disagree with the inclusion of the last two paragraphs at all, I am probably not the person to undertake it which is why I have refrained from doing so. Perhaps you would be willing to have a go at it? -- Polaris999 19:47, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The Che always the opportunist takes credit from others

The putative medical aid "provided" by the Che is most probably exaggerated for a number of reasions for example his rusty medical skills (such as they were) were probably unnecessary, since already medical practitioners such as Father John J. McKniff [7] and his nurse were on site and Havana had certainly had enough emergency medical personel. Further more, unlike McKniff there is no record of Guevara being injured in the second and subsequent blasts. However, there are indications of Guevara killings afterwards. I would tell more but some are sure to use/delete my material to advance pro-Castro causes. One notes how the material on the Abakuá was deleted, careful! careful! even the Cuban secret services do not commonly mess with those folk. You simply are going to have to read my book. xe xe El Jigue 8-20-06

The Jones reference [8] offers only one of the possible causes of the blast. Some less than enlightened contributors have removed all other hypotheses prefering to believe and leave only the Cuban government official position on the matter. However, if one accepts this reference as factual, then one has to accept the notion that Abakuá was involved because they tightly and violently controlled the dockworkers union. El Jigue 8-20-06

One cannot but note with wry amusement that no references on the Abakuá dock workers have been restored nor has a mention of McKniff have been added to the article. El Jigue 8-20-06

Factual inaccuracy. . .

Greetings,

I was passing through several Cuba-related articles and noticed a factual error in this piece. As I'm not sure the best way to address this - I'll leave it to someone with more of a vested interest in the article.

Regarding this statement:

"At the instant of the explosion, Che Guevara was passing nearby on his way to the National Bank of Cuba, of which he was president, and detoured to the harbor to find out what had occurred there. He spent the next hours giving medical attention to the scores of crew members, armed forces personnel, and dock workers who had been injured, many of them with fatal wounds."

Guevara was in fact, not "passing by" at that time. Oddly enough, my grandfather was with him during a meeting at the offices of INRA when the explosion occurred. The two were meeting regarding the possibility of opening a hub of the American company SeaLand (now owned by Maersk) in Cuba. The diary entry at 3:15 pm from that day speaks of the meeting. Che left the meeting VERY quickly, as the pair heard the explosion from INRA when it happened.

Anyhow, do with it what you will, I just saw that is a somewhat glaring inaccuracy and figured it should be brought to someone's attention. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.161.224.35 (talk) 17:27, 26 September 2006.

Hello User: 68.161.224.35. I am most appreciative of the information you have provided. Several sources I consulted when writing about this incident said that Guevara was "driving nearby on his way to the BNC"; only one said that he was in a meeting in the INRA and heard the explosion, then observed the cloud of smoke and debris rising above the dock area from a window of that building and immediately rushed to the scene. Now that I have confirmation from you that the latter version is correct, I will make the change as soon as I can determine on which page of which book that version is given since I must provide a citation from a "secondary source" according to Wikipedia guidelines re sources which would, I believe, categorize your grandfather's diary as OR (original research). However, I will consult with other editors to ascertain whether there is some way that we can include your description of his eyewitness account in the source note (or perhaps as a content note) since it is certainly of great interest. Many thanks! -- Polaris999 21:51, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello Polaris999,

I wasn't logged in when I wrote that entry - as such, I've now logged on so as to be identified. In thinking this through, I imagine it's going to be difficult to provide proper citations for that. It's not as if their meeting was historically documented, etc. Perhaps the best way to go forward is simply not to say that he had been walking by. Not sure. Lately I've been trying to find someone who could translate my grandfather's spanish shorthand. After the initial diary entry in english, he switched to that manner of writing - something he did when he didn't want prying eyes to look over his shoulder. To my dismay, I haven't been able to translate what he wrote however. What was interesting was what he wrote to describe the situation. He and Guevara were apprised of details of the explosion that indicated a death too possibly over one hundred and his diary reflected that: "Ship exploded in Harbor. French flag, La Coubre. Over one hundred dead. Very important. This accident. This moment." I love these little tidbits of history however, I think the more prudent approach would be simply to remove the bit about Guevara "walking by." It is certainly very possible that he provided first aid later at the scene, seeing as he had been trained as a medical doctor.

Out of curiousity, what was your source on his having been at INRA at the time of the explosion?

Best, Goatboy

To add to that, I've got some of his original INRA hall passes from the days when he was visiting Commandante Infante (one of che's adjutants) and Che. When he passed away in New Jersey, I found a trove of documents dating back to that period. Crazy what some people hide away for decades with others none the wiser.

Hello Goatboy. Totally fascinating! I had been wondering if your grandfather might have made some comments about the La Coubre explosion. His words: "Very important. This accident. This moment." seem to sum it up precisely. It seems to me that this event was perhaps the turning point in US-Cuba relations, and I feel that many historians fail to give it the importance it deserves. As for my source re Che being at the INRA when the explosion occurred, that is what I am going to have to search through my bookshelf to find out as I don't recall exactly where I saw that version many months ago. Incidentally, when I wrote "passing by", I meant that he was passing by in an automobile. I didn't use the phrase "driving by" because I couldn't find a source that was explicit as to whether he was driving or being driven at the time in question. Anyway, I think that, as a stop-gap measure, we can change the text to the INRA version and I will add the footnote when I re-locate the source. Re getting some help translating copies of your grandfather's Spanish shorthand notes, please take a look at LANIC. Another possibility might be the Wilson Center. Thanks again! -- Polaris999 04:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Follow-up: please take a look at Source Note #2 for the La Coubre article where there is a story purportedly from the Miami Herald that says Che was in the INRA building when the LC explosion occurred ... Also, Girón el primer capítulo de nuestra resistencia, apparently excerpted from Granma, which tells about Fidel, Raúl and Che all being in the INRA building at the time of the explosion, then Fidel and Raúl took off in one car with Raúl driving and Che took off in another. Che reached the dock area first and when Fidel and Raúl arrived, he apparently prevented them from advancing toward the ship, and just as he and some others were blocking them, the second explosion occurred, so it seems he saved both their lives! One "tidbit" of information can certainly lead to another ... --Polaris999 08:42, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

That is interesting. He had been meeting with several folks in the heirarchy at the time, including Com. Raul Diaz-Torres, Fidel, Conchita Fernandez, etc., although I don't believe Castro had any part in that meeting in March. I'm going to take a look at those links you wrote of. Thanks . . . this is quite interesting - the idea of trying to definitively trace Guevara's whereabouts and prove them, 46 years after the fact.

Just for the record, here is one (usually reliable) source that says he was on his way to the Bank (BNC):

"En su trayecto al Banco Nacional de Cuba, coincide con la explosión del sabotaje preparado por la CIA contra el vapor La Coubre, que transportaba armas procedentes del puerto de Amberes, en Bélgica, para el Ejército Rebelde. Se dirige a los muelles del Arsenal para ayudar en el rescate de los obreros muertos o heridos."

Source: http://www.adelante.cu/che/tiempo/diariotxt/mar02/4.htm

I would guess that the confusion resulted from the fact that, although they all had been in the same building when the explosion occurred, Che arrived at the scene before Fidel and Raúl did, which caused some to assume that he had already been en route from the INRA building to the Bank when it happened. -- Polaris999 21:34, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. I wonder if it could be a case of developing a story to make Guevara's involvement at the scene more heroic - that he happened to be walking by and thus was the very first person on the scene. . . or if it's simply your theory as stated above . . . certainly every government in the world has been known to use propaganda to put more heroic, dramatic spins on events.

I guess that we will never know who added the "spin" and why. My personal suspicion would be that certain parties didn't want to publicize the fact that, despite all three of them having been in the INRA building when the explosion occurred, Che got to the scene much faster than Fidel and Raúl. Notice how the Granma article takes pains to point out that this was caused by Raúl having taken a wrong turn and gotten their car lost on the way. This would have to be the explanation because, as everyone in Cuba knows, Fidel is incapable of making any mistakes, therefore he could never have taken that, or any other, wrong turn. LOL -- Polaris999 22:53, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

INRA link

I just noticed that the INRA link in this article takes one to the wrong entry in wikipedia. Instead of guiding a reade to an entry on the Instituto Nacaional de Reforma Agraria, it takes one to a French organization with the same initials. Something to fix eh? Cheers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goatboy95 (talk • contribs)

Done.--Zleitzen 00:21, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you!!! -- Polaris999 01:00, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Eyewitness account of the explosions aboard the La Coubre (in French)

The following article is attributed to Marie-Dominique Bertuccioli, who is described as a "journalist of Radio Havana Cuba". Because it is impossible to check this supposed transcript against the original transmission, it cannot be used as a source for the Wikipedia article on La Coubre. However, because of its interest, I have decided to include it here in its entirety:

La Coubre : un bateau français victime du terrorisme contre Cuba
1 De : CubaLibre - afficher le profil Date : Lun 8 mar 2004 06:14 E-mail : "CubaLibre" <sierramaes...@hotmail.com> Groupes : fr.soc.politique, fr.soc.histoire

La Coubre : un bateau français victime du terrorisme contre Cuba Marie-Dominique Bertuccioli, journaliste à Radio Havane Cuba

Le monde entier connaît la fameuse photo du Che prise par Alberto Korda, le grand photographe cubain. Le Commandant Guevara fixe de manière déterminée le lointain. Cette photo est devenue tellement courante que l'on oublie souvent dans quelles circonstances elle a été prise le 5 mars 1960.

La veille, 4 mars est un jour de travail normal au port de La Havane. Un cargo français "La Coubre", appartenant à la Compagnie Générale Transatlantique, est à quai. Il vient d'apporter des armes et des munitions provenant de Belgique. Elles composent une partie de son chargement, des tracteurs, de la ferraille et des médicaments complétent la charge.

Les travaux de déchargement se déroulent avec les mesures de sécurité normales pour ce genre d'opérations sans plus. En effet, le chargement ne présentait aucun danger, preuve en est que la Compagnie Générale Transatlantique n'avait eu recours à aucune assurance spéciale.

Orlando Garcia Diaz, est aujourd'hui retraité mais rien ne pourra jamais lui faire oublier ce 4 mars 1960. Il travaillait au "Panamerican dock" où il s'occupait de régler la valse des camions venus chercher leur marchandise. Nous le rencontrons sur le port et il évoque pour nous cette journée.

"Lorsque je suis arrivé pour prendre le tour de l'après-midi, le responsable du dock et des officiers de l'Armée Rebelle m'attendaient. Ils m'ont dit qu'il fallait décharger un bateau et que c'était le syndicat des transports qui devait assurer la mise sur les camions du chargement. Ils m'ont demandé 4 hommes et j'ai dit qu'il en fallait 8. Les 8 sont morts dans l'explosion d'ailleurs. Je les ai laissés travailler et j'ai repris mon poste d'organisation de l'arrivée et du départ d'autres camions.

A trois heures, j'ai regardé ma montre. Le travail se terminait à 5 heures et j'ai décidé d'aller jusqu'au hangar 2 où des hommes travaillaient. Je suis passé près du dock de déchargement de La Coubre. Ils avaient fait une pause, toutes les caisses de balles avaient été déchargées de la cale qui nous occupait. C'était le tour des caisses d'obus. Au hangar 2, j'ai demandé à des camarades de rester pour donner un coup de main, charger un autre camion de caisses de vis.

A ce moment-là, une explosion terrible a lieu. Je sais que toute La Havane l'a entendue. Nous étions à 15 ou 20 mètres. Le toit du hangar s'envole, une masse d'eau nous tombe dessus et on commence à entendre des milliers d'explosions plus petites en chaîne. Nous nous regroupons puis nous nous mettons à courir. Je me guide sur la chemise du camarade qui me précède pour traverser la fumée, une chemise à carreau. Tout à coup, je dis: "Mes camarades!" pensant aux hommes que j'ai laissés sur le dock. Je rebrousse chemin, l'Armée Rebelle ne laissait passer personne. J'argumente en signalant qui je suis, je sors ma carte de travailleur, je dis que je suis dirigeant syndical... Et pendant toute cette discussion, la terre commence à trembler, des gens courent, crient "ça va sauter, ça va sauter de nouveau !" Alors, a eu lieu la seconde explosion, probablement la pire.

Et c'est là qu'un second groupe de camarades est mort, y compris des gens qui étaient venus aider, des policiers... Je n'ai jamais revu mes 8 camarades..."

La Coubre vient par deux fois d'être ébranlée par une explosion. La poupe du bateau a été transformée en tôles calcinées et morceaux de ferraille qui se sont littéralement mis à voler, tuant sur leur passage.

Bilan: 101 morts dont 6 marins français et de nombreux blessés.

Les pistes de l'enquête menaient toutes aux Etats-Unis. Dans leurs dépositions, des membres de l'équipage ont signalé que le chargement s'était fait non avec des barges dans la rade comme la fois précédente, mais directement sur les docks.

Quelques jours avant le départ, le commandant avait reçu l'ordre d'embarquer deux passagers dont un journaliste américain indépendant du nom de Chapman. Selon les informations fournies par le consulat de Cuba à Bruxelles, toutes les opérations de chargement avaient été assurées par des spécialistes en explosifs et sous la stricte surveillance de policiers et de fonctionnaires des douanes.

La présence de Donald Chapman à bord du bateau a fait apparaître plusieurs contradictions. Les personnes avec lesquelles il était en rapport à La Havane faisaient partie d'un groupe lié à la CIA, la maffia et la contre-révolution. L'une d'entre elles, Evans, qui a disparu de Cuba juste après l'explosion, a reconnu l'existence d'un sabotage. Evans a prétendu que tout était réglé pour après 17 heures, moment où personne ne travaillait au déchargement.

La cale numéro 6 de la Coubre avait justement fait l'objet d'une réparation accélérée quelques mois auparavant aux... Etats-Unis.

Le 5 mars, lors de l'enterrement des victimes, le jeune premier ministre de Cuba, Fidel Castro a démontré, preuves à l'appui, que, contrairement à ce que disait la presse étasunienne, ce n'est pas la mauvaise manipulation d'une caisse de grenades qui a provoqué la catastrophe mais bien des charges explosives placées au milieu de la cargaison.

Le Che qui, au moment de l'explosion se rendait à la Banque Nationale qu'il présidait, s'est précipité au port pour aider. Il a assisté le lendemain à l'enterrement des victimes où se trouvaient également Jean Paul Sartre et Simone de Beauvoir, alors en visite à Cuba. C'est au cours de ces obsèques qu'Alberto Korda apris la fameuse photo du Che.

Fidel a rendu hommage aux marins français qui sont morts dans l'explosion, mêlant leur sang à celui de leurs frères cubains. Il a lancé aussi pour la première fois le slogan : "La patrie ou la mort".

Pour Cuba, la Coubre n'est pas du passé. Le fait figure dans les attendus du procès au cours duquel les États-Unis ont été jugés en 1999 et condamnés par contumace en vertu d'une requête présentée contre eux par 8 ONG cubaines pour dommages humains. En 40 ans, le terrorisme et les agressions contre Cuba ont fait près de 4000 morts et plus de 2000 blessés.

Source: http://groups.google.cd/group/fr.soc.histoire/tree/browse_frm/month/2004-03/efe73756ab6e26d3?rnum=81&_done=%2Fgroup%2Ffr.soc.histoire%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fmonth%2F2004-03%3F

-- Polaris999 15:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Fantastic find, Polaris!Goatboy95 14:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks, Goatboy95 — however, the "finder" of this treasure is actually El Jigue, to whom all credit is due. Please see http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Talk:Che_Guevara#Actions_at_Guisa for details.  :-)

-- Polaris999 16:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

When evaluating this information bear in mind that Orlando Garcia Diaz is a inconditional militant of the Castro government. Still there are few sources able or willing to talk about it. El Jigue 11-27-06

Fr. McKniff -- for El Jigüe

Hello El Jigüe --

I have just come across this article which could serve as a source for Fr. McKniff's role in the La Coubre rescue operation:

El cura de 'La Coubre' a un paso de la canonización

Since you were the first to mention his participation, I thought that perhaps you would want to write the sentence(s) about him? -- Polaris999 03:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The Jigue momentarily unbound has left some citations and other leads at [9] [10]

Polaris Information on the explosion is scattered. But here are some items of interest:

Regalado, Tomas 1985 La Coubre: 25 anos después. Nuevo Herald, El (Miami, FL) March 6, 1985 Final edition, ED section page 5. which reads in part "What the Cuban people were not told all safety rules were waived, there were no safety inspections, that most experienced dockworkers were replaced by rebel soldiers, unloading was done directly at the docks no lighter barges were used, and after the first explosion nobody, stopped the crowds of militias and rebels running to the rescue. However, Castro had horrendous photographs of mangled bodies and over a hundred coffins to parade and an excuse to blame the US and turn to the Soviets."

Castillo Bueno 2000 Reyita: The Life of a Black Cuban Woman in the Twentieth Century, as told to her daughter Daisy Rubiera Castillo, translated by Anne Mclean, (Durham: Duke University Press; London: Latin American Bureau, 2000) this book has only a brief mention of the loss of her son, Anselmo “Monín" Rubeira, a rebel soldier in the explosion. Why rebel soldiers were unloading the ammunition and weapons, instead of trained dock workers is not discussed.

As to father McKniff, he definitely can be placed aboard the ship and since he was stunned in the first explosion. That should have read SECOND explosion ElJigue 12-29-06

Polaris you might work with my rephrasing of the incident:

"Although it is commonly assumed that he was there, I have seen no evidence that the Che was on or near the ship after the first explosion.... However it is definite (see citation above and other sources below) that Father McKniff and nurse Gloria Azoy, were there, attending the wounded and giving last rites. They were caught in the second explosion and although stunned they survived amid the clouds of expended explosives and dust, they continued their work. Father McKniff given his long work as a missionary is being considered for sainthood by the Catholic Church."

I was several miles away; and thus, although I heard the explosions I cannot bear witness to these details. El Jigue 11-28-06

Hello El Jigue -- It's great to have you editing again! Many thanks for this information and also for the sources you kindly provided on your Talk page. Perhaps we will be able to expand this article a bit more in the future. For the time being, I have added a couple of sentences about Fr. McKniff and Nurse Azoy that I hope you will review and revise as necessary. I left in the information about Guevara having been there because I have seen photos of him taken at the scene. I believe one of them appears on the Prensa Latina website, although they have placed their logo right across his image making it difficult to see that it is indeed him. Nevertheless, I have seen this and other photos taken at the same time elsewhere and they do record his presence at the scene. -- Polaris999 01:52, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Polaris thank you, my doubts about the Che's presence at the scene, as opposed to close to the scene, are based upon his lack of injury. What puzzles me most is the lack of (many?) trained dock workers at the scene, these workers were traditionally rebelious and said to be afraid of very little. It also might be proper to mention the "polverin" explosion another massive explosion in Havana that year. Thank you again, the corresponding chapter of my book is quite complete but it will be sometime before it sees press. El Jigue 11-30-06.

access to article "La Coubre explosion"

Apparently La Coubre explosion or la Coubre explosion will bring up this article, yet La Coubre Explosion in “Title Case” will not. El Jigue 12-1-06

That occurs on many pages EJ - point them out and I will make the appropriate amendments. By the way, please see History_of_Cuba#Cuba_under_attack, where I've written a section on the British capture of Havana in 1762 if you are interested.--Zleitzen 16:53, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you will read again for more detail. Some consider the resistance to the English by the Mayor of Guanabacoa "Pepe" Antonio as a starting point for Cuban Independence thought. I also have a chapter that deals with some of that, apparently the Spanish did not have enough muskets at the time to give them to the militia. It gets very detailed. BTW there is a famous rhyme from that time which reads:

"Las Muchachas de la Habana no tiene temor de Dios and andan con los Ingleses en los bocoyes de arroz?"

Did not see if you mentioned that most of the English and troops from the English Colonies in North America died of yellow fever. Dunno why so many died for mortality is normally far from 100% but apparently the treatments must have aggravated the disease or these troops were particularily susceptible. El Jigue 12-1-06

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