Talk:Kurdish Alevism

Dersim Alevism - Kurdish Alevism conflation

This wikipedia page conflates the Alevism that's practiced by Zazas specifically in Dersim/Tunceli, with the Alevism that's practiced by Kurds in other parts of the country. I want to fix this but I'd like to discuss it before making such a major change to the page. What do you guys think? I think we might need to make a new Wiki page dedicated to Dersim Alevism, while this one will be dedicated to Kurmanji-speaking Alevis. Heviyane (talk) 15:09, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

If all of the beliefs are considered ‘Kurdish Alevism’, its likely best to keep it all in one article but corrected. Also Dersim Alevism does not equate Zaza Alevism since a large portion of Tunceli speaks Kurmanji. Semsûrî (talk) 15:18, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Considered Kurdish Alevism by who, though? I can not find any evidence of the locals calling their belief system "Kurdish Alevism."

Per Nisanyan: Tunceli province mostly consists of Turkish or Zazaki speakers, with Kurmanji-speakers forming a small minority. The city center and most districts are majority-Zaza, with half of Pertek being Turkish-speaking and Çemişgezek being majority-Turkmen. Heviyane (talk) 15:35, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Nisanyan is not an expert source on Tunceli unlike others who’ve attested the significant presence of Kurmanji in the province (Malmisanij, Çem, Lezgin with others). We’ve discussed Nisanyan before and the reliability of his index has been questioned by editors. Regarding the info on this page which you call Zaza Alevism, it wouldn’t have been added if the used references didn’t call it Kurdish Alevism. Semsûrî (talk) 15:59, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

I've not been a part of these discussions nor have I seen them, but Nisanyan is widely sourced across Wikipedia in topics related to Kurdistan and Turkey. If we do not accept his credibility here, we need to remove everything that references his index in other Wikipedia articles too. Furthermore, presence of a language in a region does not equate to the amount of native speakers of that language in the region. Zazas are well-known to be a multi-lingual people as they are surrounded by ethnic groups that are significantly larger than them, such as Kurds and Turks. If I as a Kurmanji speaker, or as a foreign historian looking into Kurds, go into a Zaza village, they will speak Kurmanji to me. If I do it speaking Turkish, they will speak Turkish to me.

I do not call it Zaza Alevism. I've only called it Dersim Alevism. The references call it Kurdish Alevism because, until recently, the Zaza people were accepted to be Kurds. This has changed in recent times, as now there are some scholars who view Zazas as Kurds and some who view them as their own ethnic group. Similarly, some Zazas view themselves as Kurds while others don't. Wikipedia has taken a stance on this issue: It recognizes that "Zazas generally consider themselves Kurds" but it also calls them a people who speak their own language (whereas Kurds generally consider Zazaki a dialect of Kurdish). If we recognize the Zazas as a people and seperate them from Kurdishness in this way, then Dersim Alevism requires the same treatment. Heviyane (talk) 16:47, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

What you are saying is completely false. I speak Kurmanji and am from Mezgir, and my cousins speaks Dimli/Zazaki from Munzur. We just fall ourselves Elewi/Alevi. We don't call ourselves Kurmanji-Elewi, or Zaza-Elewi, or Dersim-Elewi. I'm not sure what you're talking about? Also, this is off topic, but this page is too islamic. We Elewi don't see ourselves as a branch off of Islam nor related to Turkish Alevism. Rojin416 (talk) 00:38, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

What sections are "too Islamic"? Semsûrî (talk) 10:17, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

I never said that Alevis call themselves Kurmanji-Alevis or Zaza-Alevis etc. etc. I don't know where you got that from.

You're also wrong. Your particular tribe/family or ocax may not see themselves as Muslims, but others do. Heviyane (talk) 12:17, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Please make this readable for other beliefs

There are a number of odd phrasings that are difficult to understand. Firstly, is it Rawyer or Raywer? Secondly, there are a number of errors that I can correct, but please check my edits to make sure the sense has not been changed. 178.115.49.193 (talk) 10:41, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

An "preface"

According to Dressler, the Alevis are a number of heterogeneous socio-religious communities in Turkey and the Balkans, historically referred to as Qizilbash. Most scholars agree that Alevism can be defined as a unique religious system or a form of Islamic heterodoxy in Turkey. Alevis do not follow the five pillars of Islam, although they have maintained certain discourses and practices associated with the household of the Muhammad for centuries particularly Ali and his descendants to define their religious identity. To Gültekin, the Alevism is a highly controversial religious belief and the debates around Alevism focus on the five pillars of Islam.

I want to add this to the beginning of the tructure section, what do you think? 178.240.9.161 (talk) 08:54, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

General info on Alevism should be at Alevism, especially info that does not specifically pertain to Kurdish Alevis. Semsûrî (talk) 10:59, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

The Shia Islam/Sunni Islam page also some contains information about general Islam, I don't think it would be a problem to add a preface about Alevism to this page. 46.2.202.72 (talk) 13:51, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Additions to Jiare and population

I don't see anything wrong with the changes I've made. If you do, you can point it out on the talk page. I know I can't make changes, someone else can make the change for me. This page is clearly missing information (I am Trannoyye). @Semsûrî @Aintabli 46.2.203.122 (talk) 14:49, 27 December 2023 (UTC)