Talk:Komani-Kruja culture

The article represents an obsolete view that is favored today only by Albanian nationalists and has nothing to do with the current widely accepted interpretation of the "Kruje-Komani" culture.

Most scholars currently do not see the Kruja-Komani culture as an "indigenous Illyrian" culture and they certainly do not see it as an "early Albanian" culture.

1) Florin Curta in his book "Southeastern Europe in the Middle Ages,500-1250" (Cambridge University Press,2006)writes:

page 103:

[...] with the so-called "Komani culture". Long viewed as the archaeological remains of the "first Albanians," the relatively numerous cemeteries of this group of finds point to a different interpretation. First, most of them are in the hinterland of Dyrrachium (present-day Durrës), a city that certainly remained in Byzantine hands throughout the entire period. Second, finds similar to those from burial assemblages turned up in at least two forts (Kruje and Sarda/Shurdhah) that were undoubtedly occupied at the time and controlled from Dyrrachium by the archontes of the city.

pages 104-6:

A number of grave goods found on the sites in Albania and the neighboring countries strongly suggest close contacts with Byzantium, possibly even the presence of speakers of Greek: belt buckles common for the Mediterranean area, both East and West; earrings with perforated pendants showing peacocks on either side of a tree; disc -and cross- brooches; finger-rings with dedicatory inscriptions in Greek. More over, two hoards of Byzantine drinking and washing silver vessels with Greek inscriptions, gold church candlesticks, and silver belt fittings were found in the vicinity of Dyrrachium, at Vrap and Erseke. Like burial assemblages in Istria, those of Albania are often, if not always, associated with stone-lined graves, sometimes with several internment phases and multiple skeletons. This may be, and was indeed interpreted as, an indication that each individual grave may have been used for several members of the same kin group, in itself an indication that the soldiers in the garrisons of forts in northern Albania lived there permanently together with their families. That this was indeed a population of soldiers is shown not only by the relatively large numbers of associated weapons, but also by the relatively large number of cemeteries, especially in Macedonia, located on or close to the main west-east artery across the Balkans, the Via Egnatia. Although this road was long believed to have been completely abandoned during the early Middle Ages, there is evidence that its central segment between Ohrid and Edessa/Vodena was repaired at some point during the eighth century. This is precisely the region with some of the most important cemeteries of the so-called "Komani culture" (Sv. Erazmo, Radolišta, Krušarski Rid, Goren Koyjak, and Viničani). The same is true for the segment of the Via Egnatia running close to the present-day Bulgarian-Greek border in southern Thrace, where a number of cemeteries have been found showing striking parallels with burial assemblages in Macedonia and Albania.

  On the other hand, a significant number of artifacts from both female and male burials -dress accessories, weapons, and belt findings- have good analogies in Late Avar graves, as well as in assemblages from the steppes north of the Black Sea. Much like in contemporary Hungary, the mortuary assemblages in Albania display a sharp gender and status differentiation, often expressed through a great wealth of grave goods. Late Avar belt strap ends and mounts are the direct analogies for the belt fittings founds in Vrap and Erseke, which seem to have been the source of inspiration for a wide variety of belt ornaments in Hungary and the neighboring regions. An eight-century source known as the Life of St. Pancratius may give some substance to the Avar connection revealed by these archaeological parallels.
  The apocryphal Life of the first bushop of Taormina was written around 700, shortly after the introduction of the thematic organization to Sicily (709/10). [...] Pancratius' mission of conversion is thus set against the background of the first Arab attacks on Sicily, in the late seventh or early eighth centuries. One of Pancratius' converts was a local warlord named Bonifatius. Portrayed as the commander of the Sicilian troops, Bonifatius is said to have led several campaigns against barbarians abroad. At one time, he is described as organizing a seaborne expedition into the regions of Dyrrachium and Athens. Upon returning to Sicily, he was confronted by St. Pancratius, who claimed that his prisoners looked like Christians. Bonifatius assured him they were Avars [...] Through the intermediary of a translator, the prisoners declared that they worshipped fire, water, and their own swords. [...] It is therefore possible to see "Avars" in the population burying their dead in the cemeteries of the so-called "Komani culture" of Albania.
  [...] Just how "Avars" could reach the central or western regions of the Balkans is shown in an episode of the second book of the Miracles of St. Demetrius. In c. 680/1, a conflict broke between the qagan of the Avars and a group of rebels led by a Bulgar named Kouber. The rebels were descendants of a group of captives brought to the Avar heartland from the Balkan raids of the early seventh century and settled in the environs of the former city of Sirmium. As a consequence, those following Kouber in rebellion called themselves Sermesianoi.

Curta then continues with the story of the arrival of the Bulgars and Sermesiani in Pelagonia, led by Kouber and Mauros. http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Kouber http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Mauros

To them we must add the name of the village Vlasi Sremljane ("Vlachs from Sirmium/Srem") near Đakovica that appears in a 14th century Serbian document.

https://www.google.com/search?q=vlasi+sremljane&btnG=Cerca+nei+libri&tbm=bks&tbo=1&hl=it#hl=it&q=din+secolul+al+XIV-lea+a+vlahilor+%E2%80%9Esirmieni%22(Vlasi+Sremljane)%2C+&tbm=bks&undefined=undefined

So Florin Curta's assessment of the so-called "Kruje-Komani" culture is this:

1) It was populated by soldiers who were ultimately controlled by Byzantine Dyrrachium. 2) They belonged to a larger system of soldiers that were settled along Via Egnatia. 3) The archaeological evidence of the "Kruje-Komani" culture shows an archaeological connection with the Avar world (and there are philological testimonies of the arrival in Albania and Pelagonia of migrants from the Avar world), whose upper echelons enjoyed Byzantine artefacts and possibly had even mastered the Greek language.

2) Alexandru Madgearu gives his own assessment of the "Kruje-Komani" culture along with those of the Serbian Archaeologist Vladislav Popović Albanian archaeologist Etleva Nallbani and the British archaeologist William Bowden in pages 148-149 of his book "the Wars of the Balkan Peninsula: their medieval origins" (Scarecrow,2008):

As concerns the Komani-Kruje culture, the situation is more complicated than Albanian historians believe. Serbian archaeologist Vladislav Popović supposed that this culture was created by a Roman and urban population, which cannot be identified with the Proto-Albanians. According to him, this culture belonged to the Roman population living along the Via Egnatia. This area remained until the seventh century-eighth centuries under a strong Byzantine influence. The area of this culture is nearly the same as that where Latin was spoken in antiquity (defined on the basis of inscriptions). The region was Romanized. On the other hand, in the same area many present place-names of Latin origin of known. It is therefore possible that the Komani-Kruje culture was the archaeological expression of a Roman, not Proto-Albanian, population.

  This theory was of course rejected by the official Albanian archaeologists, but their arguments are not convincing. They cannot explain the large amount of Byzantine and Christian objects in the environment of this culture. A pastoral population like the Albanians was not able to create a culture of Byzantine urban fashion. The assertion that Albanians developed an urban civilization in the early Middle Ages and that they peopled the late Roman fortified settlements is fanciful.
  In 2002, the young Albanian archaeologist Etleva Nallbani received from the Sorbonne her PhD for a dissertation entitled "La civilization de Komani de l'antiquitè tardive au haut Moyen Age: etude du mobilier mètallique" (not yet published). The main ideas were summarized in two short studies (one of them published in a Croatian scientific journal). She has abandoned the traditional theory put forward by Albanian archaeology, that the Komani-Kruje culture is Proto-Albanian. Instead, she emphasizes the integration in the Byzantine civilization and the urban roots of this civilization. This new approach is shared by British archaeologist William Bowden, who concludes that the archaeological evidence does not support a single ethnic identification.

So the above scholars have all rejected the connection of the Kruja-Komani culture with the "Proto-Albanians", because of the urban characteristics that the culture displays which cannot have been produced by the pastoralist early Albanians.

William Bowden's assessment of the Kruja-Komani culture and his critique of the Albanian nationalist interpretation is a whole chapter in this book, where he concludes that the "Kruja-Komani" culture is not "indigenous", but has all the trademarks of immigration from further north, and that of course, it cannot be connected with the early Albanians:

http://books.google.it/books?id=HAmc0fBGoxUC&pg=PA59&dq=william+bowden+komani+culture&hl=it&sa=X&ei=YfOmUr3BEK_AygPk0IGADQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=william%20bowden%20komani%20culture&f=false

I am simply providing note 10 in page 60, where he speaks of possible archaeological malpractice by the Albanian nationalists during the communist period.

"There is some suggestion, that material recovered from the cemeteries that was perceived as "Slavic" was deliberately suppressed during the communist period, although the extend to which this occurred is impossible to quantify (E. Nallbani pers. comm.)"

As you can see the article as it is currently presented in wiki has nothing to do with current archaeological consensus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.39.55.120 (talk) 11:05, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

By the way, can someone who knows how correct the "long lines" in the grey boxes that go beyond the screen? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.39.55.120 (talk) 11:48, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

The article needs improvement

This article is poorly written, in a broken English with a poor grammar and a "weird" formatting. It lacks any references, but from what I saw in the history of this article it used to have one but for some strange reason it has been removed. ALBA-CENTAURI (talk) 07:38, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

I have reverted back to the last referenced version. Greyjoy ^talk 07:40, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Vlachs and Albanians

Hi, @Βατο. Recently, I've gone through quite a bit of scholarly literature on the topic, and most sources mention that the culture also included a Romanized population. Don't you think it would be worth mentioning this alongside the Albanians in the introduction? CriticKende (talk) 14:35, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

@CriticKende: it may have included a Romanized population, but in that case they most likely were not an Eastern Romance speaking population. They could have been a Dalmatian-like population, they could have even been a Romanized Proto-Albanian population. I think that the mentioning of the population that appears in the same area directly after the period of this culture (as in the version before your edit) is enough for the lede. – Βατο (talk) 15:17, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Most books speak of a Romanized population or a mixed Romanized and proto-Albanian population (which I also believe to be the case). I think it would be worth including at the beginning that this partly involves a Romanized Vlach population, especially since this is a sort of 'consensus' in the scholarly literature. CriticKende (talk) 18:01, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

What would you think about mentioning this in the previous sentence, so it would be clear that this archaeological culture is important for the formation of the Albanians, while also acknowledging the Romanized population? CriticKende (talk) 18:05, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I think the relevant information has already been included in the lede: "The population of Komani-Kruja represents a local, western Balkan people which was linked to the Roman Justinianic military system of forts." without going into questionable details as you propose. The other information: "The development of Komani-Kruja is significant for the study of the transition between the classical antiquity population of Albania to the medieval Albanians who were attested in historical records in the 11th century" is not related to what you want to include, because unlike Albanians, Vlachs have never been attested in the region where this culture emerged. Currently the content of the lede is not even discussing what you want to discuss (mentioning this alongside the Albanians), but states a fact: the scholarly research about this culture directly involves the study of the population that is attested in the same area after this culture – Albanians. – Βατο (talk) 09:05, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

"because unlike Albanians, Vlachs have never been attested in the region where this culture emerged." - I don’t quite understand why you say this. The Komani-Kruja culture is located in "central and northern Albania, southern Montenegro, and similar sites in the western parts of North Macedonia," where the first mentions of the Vlachs also appear, and these even precede the first mentions of Albanians in the area. So, I don't understand why we shouldn't mention the population that emerges directly after this culture. Moreover, according to a significant part of modern scholarship, we must also speak of a Romanized population alongside the Albanians here (some archaeologists even refer only to a Romanized population). Therefore, I think it would be worthwhile to mention the Vlachs in one sentence as well.

First mention of Albanians:

"When he decided that he had assembled a large army and battle worthy force—for he had a large army of Romans, Bulgarians, and Arvanitai, as well as a not insignificant personal retinue—he departed from Dyrrachion and hastened toward Thessalonike. As he was arriving at that city, news reached him that Botaneiates had been chosen emperor by the entire assembly of the Senate, the synod, and the people, and had been acclaimed byall together; also, that he had defeated Bryennios in a mighty battle and deprived him of his eyes for deploying arms, rising up against him, and not accepting a secondary position." - Michael Attaleiates in 1079–1080

First mention of Vlachs:

"Then when the death of the emperor John occurred, when Skleros rebelled against the emperor and their relative Basil invaded the regions of Thrace, Boris and Romanos escaped from the capital and managed to arrive in Bulgaria. Boris was wounded by an arrow as he was passing through some bushes, shot and killed by a Bulgar who thought he was a Roman, he was in fact wearing Roman clothing. Romanos made his way safely to Bidine and eventually returned to the capital as will be reported in the appropriate place. Of these four brothers David died right away killed between Kastoria and Prespa, at a place called Kalasdrys, beautiful oaks, by some vagabond Vlachs. Moses died at the siege of Serres, struck by a stone thrown from the walls." - John Skylitzes in 976

So, the Vlachs are mentioned in Prespa and Kastoria, that is, in western Macedonia (where the culture was also present), more than a hundred years before the Albanians. The Vlachs are mentioned almost immediately after the 'end' of the culture (the last excavated artifacts) in the area. And let’s add that the absolute majority of the literature mentions that we must also consider a Romanized population there, so it’s clear that the Vlachs must be mentioned as well. Don’t get me wrong, I also think the Albanians can be derived from this culture, but so can the Vlachs, and the modern academic sources supports this as well. Therefore, I believe we should mention them too with the Albanians. I also agree that the article should focus on the Albanians, as we are partly discussing their predecessors, and this culture is very important for understanding the Albanian-Illyrian relationship. However, we cannot ignore the fact that the Vlachs are also involved here. CriticKende (talk) 11:44, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Your mentions of Vlachs are about 2 or 3 centuries too late to be included in this article, not to mention it is subject to original research rules. Aristeus01 (talk) 18:30, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Aristeus01! It seems like we always run into each other. :D

I don't quite understand the "original research" claim if a British academic source states this. Tom Winnifrith, a professor at the University of Warwick for nearly 30 years, in his new 2020 study "Nobody's Kingdom: A History of Northern Albania", writes:

"But for most of the Illyrian inhabitants of Northern Albania and the few legionaries remaining in Justinian's scattered and useless forts there were only the hills into which to flee, as had happened in the days of Theodoric at Heraclea. And in these hills a Latin-Illyrian civilisation survived, as witnessed by the Komani-Kruja culture, to emerge as Albanians and Vlachs in the second millennium." (page 254) CriticKende (talk) 20:45, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh, and most recently, Florin Curta has also studied the culture, showing through references to new excavations that in some areas the culture remained intact even into the 9th, and in some cases, the 13th century.

'Equally unclear is how late the cemeteries of the Komani culture could have been in use. In at least one case, there is evidence of continued use well into the ninth century. Similarly, new excavations at Koman show that the town was occupied without interruption through the thirteenth century.'"

So, in some areas, the culture can clearly be traced well up until the first mention of the Vlachs. CriticKende (talk) 21:04, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Interesting indeed.

It is important that we do not say half-thruths. Curta does speak of Komani culture but:

"Equally unclear is how late the cemeteries of the Komani culture could have been in use. In at least one case, there is evidence of continued use well into the ninth century. Similarly, new excavations at Koman show that the town was occu- pied without interruption through the thirteenth century. In other words, nothing indicates that, following the migration of the supposed sheep-raising Roman refugees, the population shrank, much less that there was any large-scale migration to some other place in the Balkans."

We would do well not to claim a source says something it does not. Aristeus01 (talk) 21:25, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I never claimed that he considers the culture to be an ancestor of the Vlachs; that’s what the British academic source suggests. From Curta, I only gathered that the culture did indeed exist at the time of the Vlachs’ mention. I wrote this in response to what you said about the Vlachs being mentioned only much later. The independent British professor claims that the Vlachs can be traced back to this culture not Curta. CriticKende (talk) 21:53, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Scholars assume that the population of the Komani-Kruja "culture" was a mixture of Albanians and Romance-speakers (Romanized people). For the Albanians, the linguistic and archaeological evidence show they were present in the Komani-Kruja area at the time. For the Romanized people, there is more assumption than concrete evidence. In any case, taking for granted that there were Romanized people there (more likely than not), it is impossible to tell if they were Eastern Romance-speakers (Vlachs) or Western Romance-speakers (Dalmatians). So all included in a few words, you can add to the article that it is considered that there Romanized people present in Komani-Kruja, but you can't write in wikivoice that they were Vlachs or ancestors to the Vlachs. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:15, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

So I can’t include a British academic source that specifically discusses the Vlachs? The source is from a professor who has dedicated his life to this subject, and it seems that the Roman character of the culture is increasingly being emphasized. By the way, I don’t deny Albanian continuity; in fact, I support it. However, I believe it’s worth mentioning an academic source, especially if it’s from one of the experts on the topic. By the way, now that I’ve read a larger volume of books on the topic, it’s quite a strong statement to say that a romanized population is unlikely, since the vast majority of researchers mention this. CriticKende (talk) 22:25, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, the majority of researchers mention the Romanized population, but they offer no evidence whatsoever. In any case, the issue at hand here is that you have only one source which says that the Romanized people of Komani-Kruja were Vlachs. That counters with the vast majority of scholarship which just says there were Romanized people in Komani-Kruja, without specifying whether they were Vlachs, Dalmatians or something else. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:56, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

So I just need to provide more sources, and then it can be included? CriticKende (talk) 23:08, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Feel free to post here the sources you have, and we can find a solution. Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:55, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

• Extensive research by sources like Bonnet, Guillaum (1998). Les mots latins de l'albanais suggest that it's very unlikely that the post-Roman varieties which influenced this region to have been the same as Common Romanian, spoken by the linguistic ancestors of Aromanians and Romanians.--Maleschreiber (talk) 18:14, 1 October 2024 (UTC)