Talk:Knowsley Hall shootings

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Lightburst (talk) 01:39, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

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• Article history

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Knowsley Hall, pictured in 2011

• ... that in 1952 a 19-year-old footman shot Lady Derby and three members of staff at Knowsley Hall (pictured) in England? Source: The best coverage for the whole story is this contemporary newspaper article, I've clipped it from newspapers.com so it should be accessible by anybody
  • ALT1: ... that after being shot with a sub-machine gun at Knowsley Hall (pictured), England, in 1952 Lady Derby feigned death as two of her staff were murdered in the same room? Source: As above
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Caity Baser

Moved to mainspace by Dumelow (talk). Self-nominated at 09:12, 16 March 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Knowsley Hall shootings; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: @Dumelow: Good article. Onegreatjoke (talk) 18:08, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

What was the lady's name?

The first sentence of the Background section refers to the "Earl of Derby, and his wife, Lady Derby, Isabel Milles-Lade, daughter of Henry Milles-Lade". It's unlikely that she would have kept her maiden name on marriage to the earl. My guess is that someone has looked up the earl in Burke's Peerage, read something like "m. 1948 Isabel Milles-Lade" and copied it thoughtlessly. Could someone with access to a peerage check, and maybe add "née"? Maproom (talk) 07:16, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Knowsley Hall shootings/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Dumelow (talk · contribs) 18:28, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Tim riley (talk · contribs) 20:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Starting first read-through. Tim riley talk 20:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Comments after first read-through

• Lead

• "(also known as the Murder in a Mansion case)" – this term is not mentioned (or cited) in the main text. See WP:LEAD – there should be nothing in the lead that is not covered in the body of an article.

Removed, I don't think it's very important- Dumelow (talk) 09:53, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• "Knowsley Hall, Merseyside" – Knowsley is in Merseyside now, but was in Lancashire at the time. There was no such county as Merseyside in those days.

Good point, added a note to this effect - Dumelow (talk) 09:53, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Background

• "located in Merseyside" – as above

As above - Dumelow (talk) 09:53, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• "who had down-sized their staffs significantly" – two things here. First, neither the OED nor Chambers hyphenates "downsize"; secondly this is the first of four appearances of "significant/ly" in your text. This advice comes from Plain Words: This is a good and useful word, but it has a special flavour of its own and it should not be thoughtlessly used as a mere variant of important, considerable, appreciable, or quite large ... it ought to be used only where there is a ready answer to the reader's unspoken question "Significant, is it? And what does it signify?" You mean "considerably" or some such here and "considerable" or similar for the later three.

Changed as you suggested - Dumelow (talk) 10:03, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• "Winstanley had been born in nearby Aintree" – it's ten miles from Knowsley to Aintree. I don't call that "nearby".

Amended to "around five miles north-west of Knowsley Hall", measured roughy to the Blue Post pub. this 1937-1961 map shows there wasn't much else there besides the racecourse at that time - Dumelow (talk) 10:03, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Shootings

• "Smoke Room ... First Library ... Second Library" – not clear why the capitalisation here and later. A "smoke room" is not a proper noun; nor is a "first library"

Yes, not sure why I had that. Decapitalised - Dumelow (talk) 10:03, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• "He pled for his life" – in the King's English the past tense of "plead" is "pleaded"

Changed as you suggest - Dumelow (talk) 10:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Police search

• "The Liverpool City Police responded to the call and attended the house" – this is misleading. Knowsley was not in the jurisdiction of the Liverpool City Police. Superintendent W. J. Wooff of the Lancashire County Police took charge of the search. Eighteen patrol cars were ordered by radio to Knowsley Hall, and 100 men were mobilised in the Leigh, Seaforth, Wigan and Widnes Divisions of the Lancashire constabulary and rushed to Knowsley. CID cars from the Liverpool force were sent to help the Lancashire officers.

Thanks, that's great info. Do you have a source I can cite for that? - Dumelow (talk) 10:09, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Rather a pick-and-mix for my summary of the policing, above. The superintendent's name and initials come from "Knowsley Charge" in The Liverpool Echo, 24 October 1952, p. 12; the Lancashire police divisions are from "Shooting Incident at Peer’s Home", The Scotsman, 10 October 1952, p. 7. Sorry I can't give you URLs for these, as I access them online with a password that's no use to anyone else, but if you have access to the British Newspaper Archive they're both in there. I can email you facsimiles of the cuttings if wanted. Tim riley talk 10:48, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Tim, I've added the info you've posted here for now. The removal of the BNA from WP:TWL has been a big loss for working on these sort of articles. If access ever gets sorted I would love to expand this (and many others) further! - Dumelow (talk) 13:15, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Trial

• "focussed instead on Winstanley's previous good character" – why "focussed" rather than the customary "focused"?

Changed as you suggest - Dumelow (talk) 10:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• Legacy

• "Lord Derby ordered that the doors to the smoke room be locked indefinately" – spelling

Fixed - Dumelow (talk) 10:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

• "a dramatic remodelling of Knowsley Hall by architect Claud Phillimore" – clunky false title

Removed "dramatic" - Dumelow (talk) 10:05, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

My first thought was that there is so much to object to about the article as it stands that I should fail it for GA, but looking over my comments, above, I think the text could be brought up to scratch with some work on the nominator's part, and am therefore putting the review on hold. – Tim riley talk 09:30, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Hi User:Tim riley thankyou for a speedy and thorough review. I have made edits as above, if you could get back to me on a source for the police response that'd be a great amendment to the article - Dumelow (talk) 10:09, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Overall summary

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   Well referenced

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   Well referenced

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   Well illustrated

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

   Well illustrated

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

I found this an interesting and instructive article to review. I spent my teens living in Knowsley (of which, let me tell you and anyone else, the first syllable should rhyme with "cow" rather than "show") in the 1960s and have been surprised to read about the 1952 events at the Hall. It gives me much pleasure to affirm GA-status for this article. – Tim riley talk 13:48, 30 December 2024 (UTC)