Talk:Klata language

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Language info

Info on Bagobo from Lauretta Dubois (p.c.): — Stevey7788 (talk) 19:04, 28 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The numbers list was collected for Diangan/Giangan and it was obtained from our Tagabawa datu’s wife who spoke Diangan. They are both deceased, and we are no longer there so we have no access to any word list for Diangan. You may remember that Bagobo is a cover term that includes at least three languages, Diangan, Tagabawa, and Klata...maybe some others get included, but we only studied Tagabawa. There are Diangan speakers in Davao City.

In Davao City there used to be an office for Tribal Affairs. I’m not even sure now what their exact title is, but it seems someone in the SIL office in Davao City would be able to help you find that office. You would likely find someone who is a speaker of Bagobo, a term for the people living on the mountain (Mt. Apo). A person will say he is Bagobo, but he will either speak Tagabawa, Giangan/Diangan or Klata, with a mixture of Cebuano/Visayan. You would need to ask which language he speaks. If I remember correctly our Datu’s wife, a G/Diangan speaker, said that Klata was different. Carl seems to remember having visited a Diangan area and took a word list, but we have no idea now where that list is. We were visiting in the northeastern side of Mt. Apo, not the south side of the mountain where the Tagabawas live. Davao City and Mount Apo are the areas of the Bagobo language groups, far from Tboli and Tiruray.

I suppose there are similarities between the languages of Klata and Giangan. A word list of each would give you a more definite evaluation. You would need to ask tribal officials in Davao about their location.

Separate branch

According to David Zorc (p.c., 2018), Giangan is not Bilic / South Mindanao, but rather constitutes its own separate branch within the Philippine linkage of Malayo-Polynesian languages. Paper currently in preparation by Zorc on this topic. — Stevey7788 (talk) 19:25, 4 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Giangan language must be moved to a new entry: Klata language | Here is the suggested revision after consulting with Klata people and other linguists

Klata (also known among themselves as Bagobo Klata, sometimes spelled <Clata> or known to outsiders as Giangan / Jangan, Klatan, Kalatan) is a unique Austronesian language of the southern Philippines. It is spoken on the eastern slopes of Mount Apo in Davao del Sur Province, as well as in Davao City (Ethnologue), where they occupy an area stretching from Catalunan to Calinan. It is notable for the loss of final *n from Austronesian vocabulary [PAN *zalan 'path' > Klata dála; PAN *quzaN 'rain' > Klata ʔulá], for consonant gemination [PAN *Cau 'person' > Klata ʔottów' PMP *hutek 'brain' > ʔottók], and for the shift of PAN or PMP *R to /l/ (mostly to /g/ in surrounding languages) [PMP *Ratus 'hundred' > Klata mlotús, Bisayan gatús; PAN *beRas 'husked rice' > Klata ballás, Tagalog bigás].

The nearby Manobo Obo and Tagabawa languages are also known as Bagobo (an ethnic identifier) but should not to be confused with Klata.

Linguists make a great deal about the terms <ENDONYM> 'what a group of people call themselves' and <EXONYM> 'what other people may call them'. Klata or Bagobo Klata is what they call and have called themselves, and this should be respected. Showing this respect involves moving the main entry to <KLATA>, with an active cross-reference to <GIANGAN> which is an exonym. In the article, we have found no corroboration for the names: "Atto, Eto, Guanga, Gulanga". The first two seem to be related to *qaRta which is a descriptive for 'Negrito' in many Philippine languages, but the Klata are not genetically Arta, or Atto, or Eto. The last two just seem to be misspellings of <Giangan> but which is actually pronounced [Jangan]. The Klata themselves objected to the wording "They occupy a very small territory stretching from Catalunan to Calinan within Davao City." There is no necessity for using "very small territory" which they find pejorative. RDavidZorc (talk) 14:44, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@RDavidZorc: Great to see you here! I think we can move the page to Klata language based on your UP Archive paper. @Sagotreespirit, Kwamikagami, and Masjawad99: What do you think? As for the spurious "alternative names", they're all given in the Ethnologue, but I have seen so many weird "alternative name" entries there, so we can just remove them. And the denigrating wording is indeed useless here. I'll fix the last two points immediately. –Austronesier (talk) 18:57, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Add @Glennznl: –Austronesier (talk) 19:37, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea re. this particular language.

Not that it's necessarily relevant here, but I have misgivings about the constant attempt to use endonyms. (Not only do we need the endonym, but the correct endonym, and then change the spelling every time the orthography of the language changes, or when some outsider decides it should be spelled differently.) It often strikes me as patronizing, and repeatedly changing the name or the spelling of a name makes it effectively impossible for most people to keep track. What good is it to use the "authentic" name if no-one knows who they are? Why is it that we're not worried about using the "authentic" name of the Germans, or Greeks, or Egyptians? It's almost as if that's okay because advanced nations can decide for themselves, whereas we need to take care of those who are still too primitive to have a say in their own representation, and decide for them based on our expectations of what they should want. It's different if a name is pejorative, but even there half the time it's only pejorative in our (mis)interpretation, and the people themselves don't find it so. — kwami (talk) 19:08, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Austronesier, I appreciate any endeavor to correct or modify the entry. Kwamikagami, you are absolutely correct about established language names. English says German, not Deutsch (the closest English word 'Dutch' recognizes a different nation). However, concerning newly discovered languages that have been misnamed (because no one could ask the people what they call themselves, and often consulted more accessible neighboring groups), making a change such as Giangan to Klata should not be earth-shattering. One African language in particular has 21 different names: Fulfulde (endonym), Fulani (exonym, what neighboring tribes called them), but also Fula {French), Pula (German), and then different dialect names: Adamawa, etc. Now THAT is a mess we should avoid!RDavidZorc (talk) 19:58, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@RDavidZorc: One thing we have to consider is the Wikipedia policy of WP:COMMONNAME. Wikipedia reflects, and should not be a trendsetter for a reasonable, but not yet established change. WP is a big amplifier on the web, and the boost should start from peers in the field, not from Wikipedia. If e.g. Reid, Blust, Lobel, Glottolog, Ethnologue (etc.) follow the terminology in your 2019 paper, we will have a stronger point. –Austronesier (talk) 20:11, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Blust's ACD after citing my paper has added Klata to his language list: https://www.trussel2.com/ACD/acd-l_k.htm#Klata. It was Lobel who gave me the name <Klatan> which he heard when doing research in Southern Mindanao. So two Austronesian linguists have already accepted this term.RDavidZorc (talk) 21:50, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Austronesier and RDavidZorc: Here in my gadget, Google gives more search results for "Bagobo Klata" (incl. the quote marks) than for "Bagobo Giangan". There are also more results for "Klata" than "Giangan", but it seems to be boosted by the existence of a (Polish?) surname with the same spelling. The results are more about the people than the language, though; "Giangan language" still returns more results than "Klata language". While these are not perfect indicators of usage popularity, I think it's reasonable to say that "(Bagobo) Klata" is the common name, at least for the people, if not the language that they speak. Masjawad99^💬 14:54, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@RDavidZorc: Welcome to Wikipedia! Personally, I would fully endorse your suggestion to change the article name to Klata language. Thanks for stopping by and sharing your knowledge! — Sagotreespirit (^talk) 03:34, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]