Talk:Makuria

Notes

This page really needs a list of rulers and I can't find oneGeni 16:45, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Images

I've asked that this article be placed on the main page soon. However, the Featured Article Director doesn't feel that the map or the parchment is a suitable image for the front page, and the pinkish fresco thing doesn't look great either. So, if anyone can find a good image of some item of Makurian art or architecture, please add it to the article; then the next stop will be the main page. — Amcaja 17:51, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately we are somewhat lacking editors from Sudan, so getting some more photos might not be easy. - SimonP 20:01, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

There should be stuff to photograph at the British Museum. Do you know anyone who lives in London? — Amcaja 20:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Not really, but a friendly message at the British Wikipedians noticeboard might be able to find someone. The best collection of Makurian artifacts outside of Sudan is actually in Warsaw, but I've been informed that photography is forbidden in the National Museum there. - SimonP 20:16, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Really excellent article. Too bad about the lack of pictures. --jacobolus (t) 05:55, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Additions

To make an excellent Article better, as featuring an Article brings more discussion. --Connection 14:06, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

1. "ordain an abuna, or metropolitan, for the Ethiopian Orthodox Church..." The head of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church is a Catholicos (see Talk:Abuna), higher than a metropolitan.
2. "king was also considered a priest ..." may refer to a Biblical tradition, as king David had free access comparable to a priest. The Tradition of Coptic Church specfically allows the King access to the altar (compared to a Priest or a Deacon). However, no reference to perfoming a Mass. Are sources pointing out specifically the king "could perform mass", or are in gerneral terms may be understood simply as free access to the Altar, compared to old and somewhat christian traditions?
3. More analysis. "John of Biclarum states that Makuria then embraced the rival Byzantine Christianity." What was the affiliation of Makuria Church, before and after that turn? The concept of "free" Bishop does not exist in both traditions. And how a big faith leap (turning to Coptic Patriarch of Alexandria) took place? All this is still obscure. Sources of the Alexandria church are parsimonious and obscure on that entire Sudan business!
4. "influxes of Coptic-speaking Christian refugees from Egypt" has created an important community, nornally called Nagādy. The term is genetive for Naqādah, a city in upper Egypt, pronounced according to Sudan and Upper-Egypt Arabic phonology. The term is used for any Christian Egyptan settler, even if not from Naqâdah. The term hence may be found in family name "an-Nagādy". They are mostly involved in agricultural activities.
5. Should history stop at "the Ottoman Sultan Selim"? Or extend (at least refering to other Articles) to the British codominiom (British occupation under Egyptian flag).

Responding point-by-point:

1. You are quoting yourself here. I've responded at Talk:Abuna; let's continue the discussion there.
2. That appears to be Shinnie's opinion. Can you provide a citation for your opinion? If so, then in the spirit of NPOV, we should include both.
3. The affiliation of the Makurian Church was based on whom their bishop was in communion with: either the bishop stop communicating with one Patriarch & began with the other, or he was deposed (most likely by the king) & replaced with another bishop. (This happened later in Makurian history: see Abraham of Makuria.) Religious politics were very changable in this period, & as Makuria lay at the edge of the Mediterranian world they could easily "switch sides" with little worry of repurcussions. But you are right: the historical material is sparse for all of the Nubian kingdoms.
4. Can you provide a citation for this statement about the Nagādy? If so, then adding this material (or an article about it) would be welcome.
5. I suspect that the history stops at Sultan Selim because that is where the historical evidence ends. (This is as far as Wallis Budge brings his account of Nubia in his A History of Ethiopia: Nubia and Abyssinia.) In any case, by the 16th century the Christian communities had fallen apart, & were overrun by the founders of the Kingdom of Sennar, & other Moslem peoples. (Alvares has a poignant anecdote in his account of visiting the court of Lebna Dengel: a deputation from Nubia had arrived, begging for priests & monks to help them keep their faith alive; the Emperor replied that he could not spare any religious workers for Nubia, & referred them to the Patriarch of Alexandria, explaining this was where he -- the Emperor -- turned for help.) -- llywrch 22:12, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Inaccuracy in "Origins" Section

This section contains a sentance that states the Battle of Dongola was "the only major defeat suffered by an Arab army in the first century of Islamic expansion". That's factually incorrect, because the Sassanid Persians routed an Arab army in the (Battle of the Bridges?) in Iraq, and Roman armies defeated the Arabs a few times, in Anatolia and during the seiges of Constantinople. Plus the Franks defeated the Arabs at Tours in 732. While it's not an article-destroying error, it is still an error that should be corrected. Thomas Lessman (talk) 17:04, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Sources

Women in Makouria: fluehr.pdf an article on the Candices, including some instances of their continuity into the Christian period. -LlywelynII (talk) 16:26, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I have a source from pgs 98-99 of Medieval Africa, 1250 - 1800 by Roland Anthony Oliver, Anthony Atmore on the possible Islamatisation. Can I quote it verbatim ?

"When, in 1171, Egypt was conquered by the Ayyubids, who were Sunni Muslims from Armenia, the black slave soldiers of the Fatimids were naturally suspected of loyalty to their former masters. They were abruptly disbanded and banished to upper Egypt, where they made common cause with the Arab pastoralists pressing into the borderlands of Maqurra. By 1260, when power in Egypt was seized by the Mamluks, the situation on the Nubian frontier had got beyond control. At first the Mamluk sultan Baybars tried to by-pass Maqurra by occupying the Red Sea port of Suakin and developing more direct trade links with Alwa and Ethiopia. King David of Maqurra responded by raiding into Egyptian territory and capturing the pilgrim port of Aydhab. Baybars thereupon sent an army, composed largely of pastoral Arab levies, into Maqurra, where it defeated King David and, after plundering as far south as Dongola,installed a vassal ruler in his place. Further expeditions of the same kind were conducted during the reigns of sultans Qala un and al-Nasir Muhammad, around the turn of the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries. Finally, in 1316 a Muslim candidate was placed upon the throne of Maqurra, and in the following year, as we know from an inscription on its walls, the former metropolitan cathedral of Dongola was converted into a mosque.Only in the inhospitable district around the Second Cataract, by this time by-passed by caravan trails running straight across the desert from Aswan to Dongola, did a small Christian principality, with its capital at al-Daw near the modern town of Wadi Halfa, survive for some time longer, by paying tribute to the Muslim rulers of Maqurra." Kendirangu (talk) 16:19, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

@Kendirangu (talk · contribs) Not necessary, it's low on details and is outdated. Check out the last half of Decline and Terminal period for the most up to date state of research. LeGabrie (talk) 19:10, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

Makkourae

I included that originally. I don't have a copy of Adams handy, but ideally that sentence should contain a reference to Ptolemy himself. Unfortunately I can't find the term Makkourae in any copy of Ptolemy available on the web. This page contains a an English translation of Ptolemy's chapter on Nubia, but in the list of tribes the Makkourae don't appear, not even anything very similar. A search of Google Books for "Makkourae" finds a few references to it occurring in Ptolemy, but only in French. At best this indicates that Makkourae is only one possible transliteration, and we shouldn't be as absolute in saying Ptolemy knew of a tribe with that name. - SimonP (talk) 13:41, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Work needed

Hello everyone - Unfortunately, this article does not meet the current standards for a featured article. The major issue is that it is significantly under-referenced, with many sections and paragraphs being partially or completely unreferenced. There are also page numbers missing for a couple of book references. If work is not completed on these issues in the next few weeks, this article will need to be taken to WP:Featured article review for a possible revocation of its featured status. Dana boomer (talk) 14:52, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

This version looks much better than the current one. Why not just revert back? 216.8.129.17 (talk) 20:10, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Map

See Talk:Ikhshidid dynasty#Map. Srnec (talk) 00:39, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Flag

Leaving a detailed note on this for future reference:
The flag shown here should not be used in the article as it is WP:OR, or at best WP:UNDUE. The only source mentioned for this (at the file description) is a primary source, the Book of Knowledge of All Kingdoms (a medieval European work), with no page number. The image is apparently based on this vague passage: "And the insignia of Prester John is a silver flag with a black cross, and on both sides two crooks in this manner, in the land of Nubia and of Etiopia there are two emperors: one is the Emperor of Graçiona and the other is the Emperor of Magdasor. [LXXXI]" (p.65), with the numeral referring to at least four different images here (continuing on next page). Additionally, the Book of Knowledge of All Kingdoms is not considered a serious source for this kind of information: it is a semi-imaginary travelogue that very likely includes invented flags and heraldry, often for invented kingdoms and locations, for the benefit of its medieval readers. This is mentioned in the introduction to a modern edition:

In addition to copying heraldic arms firom another source or sources, the anonymous author of the Conoscimiento also invented devices for nations and rulers that did not really exist. But his doing so did not make him or his work unique in the fourteenth century, since imaginary heraldry was a commonplace in the Middle Ages, having begun about the same time as real heraldry was being standardized, in the mid-twelfth century. Literary texts, tapestries, and paintings have all depicted the invented arms of non-existent persons and places, as well as the arms of people who lived before heraldry was created. Heraldic emblems have been created for such figures as Moses, Adam, Attila the Hun, Jupiter, Mars, King Arthur and his knights, Christ, the Devil, and Prester John (these last arms appear in the Conoscimiento), as well as for numerous fantastic kingdoms, countries, and institutions. (see p. xlvii)

Therefore, unless this flag is supported by reliable secondary sources (so far I see no evidence that it is), any claim or implication that it is the flag of historical Makuria does not belong on Wikipedia. R Prazeres (talk) 21:55, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Nuh uh. Communism is cringe (talk) 22:35, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

(the red banners are the same as those of the crusaders and are not meant to represent the Nubians—only the shields and caparison)

@R Prazeres: I disagree with this removal. See the image at right for another contemporary source that supports the Book of Knowledge of All Kingdoms. See also the Catalan Atlas. Adam Simmons, Nubia, Ethiopia, and the Crusading World, 1095–1402, discusses these sources, noting the similarities and inconsistencies (especially regarding colour). The flag should be restored, with the caption attributing it to the Book of Knowledge. Srnec (talk) 02:19, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

If there are secondary sources identifying or illustrating the flag explicitly, that's different. Can you cite the page in the Simmons book above, to clarify? Otherwise WP:OR means it's not up to Wikipedia editors to go digging in primary sources (even if the latter agree with each other, we need to hear it from historians). Especially for an infobox lead image, the sources should be straightforward on the matter. Thanks, R Prazeres (talk) 02:28, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Update: I believe I've found the discussion on p.173 (roughly here and following page). I don't see anything there that would support the restoration of the flag in the same place; indeed, the author's wording expresses skepticism about the Book of Knowledge (Libro del conoscimiento) and the rest makes it clear that the overall issue is confused, with many different versions of supposed flags attributed to either Ethiopia or Nubia in different sources, plus the European sources possibly influencing each other in their depictions. It would make for good material in the body of the article, where there's already an appropriate mention of the Libro and its flag (currently in the "Decline" section). The flag image would be more useful there than in the infobox, where we cannot reasonably expect to contextualize it for what it really is. R Prazeres (talk) 03:28, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Everybody expresses skepticism about the Book of Knowledge. I will only point out that there is no question of the Book of Knowledge just making shit up in this case. The presence of the same symbol standing for Nubia in earlier sources demonstrates clearly that the Book of Knowledge is not being original in this instance. Srnec (talk) 04:10, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Again, Wikipedia policy is to rely on reliable secondary sources. The previous flag image relies solely on one depiction in the Book of Knowledge. That similar depictions are found in European sources from the same era just tells us how some distant Europeans chose to depict some kingdoms in the region, not what the Makurian kingdom actually used. In the absence of any further sources on the matter, I oppose its inclusion in the infobox, which should be reserved for established facts. I don't oppose its inclusion in the body of the article, if it accompanies relevant text that contextualizes it accordingly. R Prazeres (talk) 04:47, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Hold up, let him cook. Communism is cringe (talk) 22:37, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

@Communism is cringe: as it is recent, you may legitimately revert the removal per WP:BRD to await a clearer consensus, but please use the talk page for more constructive comments and suggestions, not random lines like "nuh uh" ([1]) and "let him cook". Please see Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. R Prazeres (talk) 23:31, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Sorry. Communism is cringe (talk) 23:34, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

No problem, thanks for acknowledging. (The short version of the guidelines: the talk page is for discussing concrete improvements and ascertaining consensus for changes, so your comments should be written with that in mind.) Thanks, R Prazeres (talk) 23:39, 28 November 2024 (UTC)