Talk:King of Italy

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Sources

This article only sights a handful of sources. It denies things that other articles seem to have established as fact. If you're going to say Odaocer was only "Dux Italiae[sp?]" and "not Rex Italiae as commonly thought" you really need a source. So please find some reliable sources, but until then, the 'lack of sources' tag stays up. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 21:47, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Frankish kings 9th-10th centuries

This section has become way too complicated and hard to follow. Just put the names and dates and let the reader know that the throne was in dispute during this period. Let them click a link if they wish to learn the details. This is not he page for it. Srnec (talk) 23:34, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Francis II

The next year, the Emperor Francis II abdicated his Italian royal title.

Francis abdicated as Emperor. His imperial title implied a claim to the title of "King of Italy," but so far as I'm aware, no Emperor for several hundred years had actually used this title, although they did claim that the northern Italian states were imperial fiefs. I think this should be clarified. john k (talk) 23:05, 11 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Victor Emmanuel the first to rule all of Italy?

What is the basis for this claim? Didn't Odoacer, Theodoric, Athalaric, and Theodahad rule over the whole peninsula? john k (talk) 04:51, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's got to be false any way you slice it. He didn't rule San Marino (or the Vatican, or Trentino–Alto Adige) and the Roman emperors certainly ruled as much of Italy as he did. If you try to wiggle around this by making him the first ruler of a unified and distinct state comprising all Italy, you just raise the question what constitutes Italy, how much more than just the peninsula is it? If it is just the peninsula, then indeed I think the barbarian kings you mentioned succeeded in ruling the whole thing. I wonder about the Emperor Henry VI also. Depends on his relationship to the Papal states, and how it was viewed at the time. Srnec (talk) 05:25, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Vatican was actually part of Italy until the Lateran Treaty of 1929; the Holy See itself was still considered sovereign, but did not have sovereignty over any territory. But, yeah. john k (talk) 14:44, 17 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of Frederick II

I am removing Frederick II from the list of Kings of Italy. Although Frederick II was crowned King of the Romans, King of Sicily, King of Jerusalem and Holy Roman Emperor, he never crowned King of Italy at Pavia, Monza or Milan during his lifetime - see Sismondi's History of the Italian Republics in the Middle Ages, (1906), pg. 143; 147 and Kington-Oliphant's, History of Frederick the Second, Emperor of the Romans, Vol I, (1862), pg. 195 which specifically state that the Milanese refused to crown Frederick with the Iron Crown. Neither is his coronation as King of Italy mentioned in any modern source, such as Abulafia's, The New Cambridge Medieval History, Vol. V: c. 1198-c. 1300, (1999), which does mention his other coronations - see page 382 as an example. I have also reviewed Bryce's, The Holy Roman Empire, (1913), Comyn's History of the Western Empire, from its Restoration by Charlemagne to the Accession of Charles V, Vol. I. (1851) and Dunham's, A History of the Germanic Empire, Vol. I, (1835). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oatley2112 (talk • contribs) 04:02, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Between Charles V and Napoleon

According to Italian Wiki, no emperor after Charles V went to Italy to be coronated, or used the title "king of Italy." I searched for each of the people listed on GBooks (Ferdinand I, Maximillan II, Rudolf II, Matthias, Ferdinand II, and Ferdinand III). I didn't find anything about them being king of Italy, let alone being crowned on the dates indicated. This source is really old, but it does give a list of kings ending with Charles V, and it includes a note stating that later emperors did not claim the title. Greatness Bites (talk) 22:04, 21 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I redid this list after consulting Muratori's list, as well as Italian Wiki and the appropriate biography articles. I added Conrad II of Italy and Lothair III, and removed Wenceslaus IV, Albert II, and Maximilian I. Wenceslaus and Albert were never emperors, so they were obviously included on this list by mistake. Maximilian was an emperor but never crowned as such, so it is unlikely he was crowned as king of Italy either. Greatness Bites (talk) 03:55, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Edit war : Rex Italiae(Regnum Italiae) and King of Italy(Kingdom of Sardinia).

The article is disconnected sources. There is no connection between the two state entities. Regnum Italie and Kingdom of Italy ( from the Kingdom of Sardinia). This is a serious problem--151.46.32.154 (talk) 11:59, 14 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Habsburg coat of arms

The Habsburgs used the Coat of Arms of the Archduchy of Austria to do business at that time. Later on Burgundy etc. were added, but the one diaplayed here is the old arms of the Counts of Habsburg. It's not exactly wrong, but kind of uncommon. RudolftheFree (talk) 22:52, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments and suggestions

This entry was useful to provide a chronological list of ancient and modern kings of Italy (pre 1556 and post 1804). However, there are some gaps, discrepancies. Also, I think some fixes as well as some explanations are necessary. Here are some comments I must make.

1. I don't think the coat of arms of the Savoy family used when they became kings (1861-1946) should be used to represent the ancient Kingdom of Italy nor both ancient and modern Kingdom of Italy.

2. The Iron Crown was last used for Emperor Ferdinand I in 1838 who was not even King of Italy and it was not used for any of the Savoy kings. Therefore, it does not apply to all kings of Italy and this should be made clear.

3. The history section says "During this period, known as the Feudal Anarchy (888–962), the title Rex Italicorum ("King of the Italians" or "King of the Italics") was introduced. After the breakup of the Frankish empire, Otto I added Italy to the Holy Roman Empire".

Technically, the Frankish Empire was divided at Verdun in 843 so if the text talks about the end of the Feudal Anarchy in 962 and Otto I who was Emperor in 962 I don't understand what "After the breakup of the Frankish empire" means chronologically.

4a. Arduin was born in Piedmont so how can be be listed under the Ottonian dynasty which was Germanic?

4b. Arduin was only accepted by the nobility in Italy and contested by Henry II in Germany. I think a note explaining this would be useful to justify the overlap in dates.

5. The dates for Henry IV and Conrad II are overlapping (1024-1026). An explanation would be useful to clarify.

6. The overlap of the Houses of Süpplingenburg and Hohenstaufen (1128-1137) should be explained.

7. The gap between the Houses of Hohenstaufen and Welf (1197-1208) should be explained.

8. The overlap of the 3 kings of the House of Hohenstaufen (1212-1254) should be explained.

9. The gap between the Houses of Hohenstaufen and Luxembourg (1254-1311) should be explained.

10. The gap between the Houses of Luxembourg and Wittelsbach (1313-1327) should be explained.

11. The gap between the Houses Wittelsbach and Luxembourg (1347-1355) should be explained.

12. The gap between the 2 kings of the House of Luxembourg (1355-1437) should be explained.

13. The House of Habsburg is marked with "1437-1556" but Frederick III starts reigning in 1452. This is inconsistent and it should be corrected.

14. The gap between the 2 kings of the House of Habsburg labeled for "1437-1556" should be explained.

ICE77 (talk) 01:24, 21 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

15a. The article on Charlemagne, at the bottom, under "Kings of Italy between 476 and 1556" lists Charles I (Charlemagne) king of Italy between 774 and 814.

15b. The article on the Carolingian dynasty says that Charlemagne (Charles I the Great) was "King of Italy (f. 774)" (I have no clue what "f." means).

15c. The article on the Kingdom of Italy (Holy Roman Empire) says the kingdom started in 855 with Louis II.

This is clearly a considerable inconsistency. It's clear Charlemagne was in control in 774 with the title "King of Italy" and he was a Carolingian so the sequence between 774 and 855 needs to be updated/corrected because things are not consistent with the history of the (ancient) "Kingdom of Italy".

If my understanding is correct Charlemagne should be placed under Kingdom of Italy (774-962) and Carolingian Dynasty (774-887). At the same time, it should be clear that the Carolingian Empire was split 3 times with the treaties of Verdun (843), Prüm (855) and Meerssen (870). As a consequence of the Treaty of Prüm (855), Italy appeared as a kingdom and territory for the first time. All this should be noted and explained in the history section because although there was a placed called "Kingdom of Italy" in the ancient term and a title of "King of Italy" in the ancient term, the territory of northern/central Italy was Middle Francia from 843 to 855 and Italy from 855.

16. The "Instability (887 – 962)" section does not align with the dates of the "Kings of Italy between 476 and 1556" box at the end of the Charlemagne article.

ICE77 (talk) 00:27, 15 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]