Talk:Khoja

Untitled

"Khawaja's are descendants of Esther (Hadassah) who was a Jewish queen of the Persian king Ahasuerus and she had Jewish lineage to House of Levi LAW BEARERS and Benjamin was of Jewsh nobility. The Title was to honour children of Estther meaning LORD/MASTER. House of Khawaja is the oldest nobilityn that has been around for thousands of years. Khawaja have ruled behind the scenes through Asia, China, South East Asia, Asia Minor, Balkan, Middle East. They have part some of the major empire of asia and middle east e.g. Persia, Ottoman, Moghuls, Mongols etc.

They are of Semite descendants of Shem and therefore have a clear Jewish Heritage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davesmithclarke (talk • contribs) 21:10, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Needs disambiguation (at least to Khoja Nasreddin/Juha), plus an initial sentence explaining this. Given the broad meaning of "Khoja", I suspect these guys are not the only people it describes...- Mustafaa 00:19, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This term refers to an elite group within Islam not only in South Asia (see good articles on Khawaja, Sayyid and Hoca Nasreddin for comparison). Let's try to start from the many uses of a word in the Islamic world, and then talk about the specific groups in different geographic or thematic areas. This needs to start with a discussion of principles of creating such entries. Central Asia is being neglected. The article on Khoja (Turkestan) is terribly limited. Let's try to be professional.

Not quite sure how to go about that as I'm pretty new to the game. Thanks for giving the article the once over. I've always known Nasruddin as a mulla rather than a khoja - must be a sociological revelation in there somwhere! Juha conjures up wonderful memories of arabic classes all those years ago and periodically asking the teacher the arabic for dentures. Leo Africanus 00:49, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Misleading Khoja's being Sunni

There is no evidence that Khoja practiced Sunni islam, prior to the arrival of the Agha Khans, all academic research indicates that they were Isma'ili, unless there is cited academic research. (Water Stirs (talk) 10:07, 26 October 2008 (UTC))

Nizari Khoja's not very well discussed

This article barely discusses the Nizari Khoja's which are one of the more populace branches of Khojas.

For some unbiased information, I suggest looking at: http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/islam/shia/ismal.html http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Ismaili

Also, this article is completely biased and uses poetic language to describe the plight of Khojas. This is not appropriate for Wikipedia.

Clarifying

Once again, I apologize for putting a rude general notice on without listing my reasons. Most of them are simply concerned with word choice -- words that have positive connotations used where ones with neutral ones would do -- and this is probably unconscious on the part of the author. Here they are specifically:

The beginning

"enlightened" implies that Pir Sadruddin is correct; "began to preach" or something along those lines would be better

"celebrated" implies that the actions are positive; "famous" or "well-known" would be better

Jamaat Khanah

"exclusive and secretive" -- "exclusive" implies a sense of superiority. It might be better to recast this sentence, saying something like "Only members of the Muslim shia Nizari Ismaili community are allowed to enter the Jamaat Khanah..." (This is why I couldn't edit this page myself; because I don't know what the Jamaat Khanah is, I'm not exactly sure how to use it in a sentence.)

Retention of Identity

"persistant perseverence" is a choice of words praising the Khojas. Could a neutral way of saying this be found?

Beyond Africa

"young Khojas had braved the monsoons" gives a VERY positive feeling toward the Khojas. Perhaps statistics or simple facts would be more appropriate for this section.

The entire section of "retention of identity" is unnecessary. There are no citations, and every statement made therein appears to be a matter of opinion. For example:

"The thrust of these influences was great, engendering a fear in the minds of the Khoja of losing their identity. Hence the persistent perseverance by the Khojas to remain within a well-knit framework of the Jamaat, allowing no intrusion.[citation needed]

Amongst Shia Khoja groups, it is believed there exists a heavy "Khoja only" attitude.[citation needed] This idea is further demonstrated by the history of "Khoja Only Membership" among Islamic centres.[citation needed] While many centres no longer say they're Khoja only, the idea is not completely off the table.[citation needed]"

On these grounds I have removed this section entirely.

Overall, Khojas tend to be progressive community. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.164.150.223 (talk) 22:09, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

To clarify, I don't by any means think that NEGATIVE words should be used; that's not what I'm saying at all. But in an encyclopedic article, NEUTRAL is best.

Thanks for listening, Ericka Dawn 22:46, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Misleading Opening Sentence

"Khoja (Urdu: خوجہ) community follows Nizari Ismaili Shia Islam and consider Aga Khan to be the Imam."

Later in the article this statement is contradicted when it speaks of khojas who dont follow this branch of islam. It should probably be scrapped.

Subdivisions

How can 3 sects of Islam (ithnashariy, ismaili, hanafi) be subdivisions of an ethnic group? I don't think that the subdivisions box is relevant unless we can find some sub-ethnic groups. --aliasad 05:56, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

arabic meaning of Khawaja

The opening paragraph implies that خواجة khawaja is some sort of honorary title. In Arabic at least, it just means foreigner. It's not a title, if it ever was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jackbrown (talk • contribs) 18:59, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Comments left in article

From [1], moved here for comment:

The Khawajah Nobility, are the white nobility from Babylon and are Descendants of Abraham (biblical prophet), there a lot of nonsense which is depicted in the information that is provided. The information provided is inaccurate.

It is important that people that have recently begun to use the title, due to their success should understand that, you must be born in the blue bloodline of Khawaja; You just cannot use this title. The title was given by the Persian emperor (meaning Lords of Persia or Persian Lord) to the family of paternal side of the Mohammed who could trace their linage back to Abraham. Khawaja were Semites (Hebrews) , before Islam and were many of Quresh. The Persian wanted the same prestige as Rome. So the family of the Mohammed became known as Khawaja (Persian Lord or Lord of Persia).

They were involved in all important function of Persia from religion to military. In the religion context they were Masters and in military context they were field Marshalls. It is very important understand that Khawaja had spread Islam through the world and fought many battles, but largely they spread Islam through peace.

Khawaja are not Kashmiris, but originally from Arabia/Babylon. A revert to Islam cannot become a Khawaja, because Khawaja are the descendants of the holy bloodline/white nobility of Mohammed.

Would like to bring to the attention of the writer that this is actually a very Old Hebrew Title which literally meant Lord/Master of gentiles (people of the world), which did not belong to the bloodline. Khawaja's have been around for thousands of years. There has been a conspiracy to eradicate them from History. I can go as far to say most of the famous European/American Families and Banking Dynasties actually below to the Khawaja or Khawajah Lineage.

and

This information is incorrect, because someone converting to Islam cannot be called a Khawaja. I must stress, people that are of Abrahamic descend can only be called Khawaja or Khawajah etc, because this is a very old Hebrew title Meaning Lord/Master over gentiles. So how can a gentile become a Khawaja.

The Khawajah Nobility, are the white nobility from Babylon and are Descendants of Abraham (biblical prophet), there a lot of nonsense which is depicted in the information that is provided. The information provided is inaccurate.

It is important that people that have recently begun to use the title, due to their success should understand that, you must be born in the blue bloodline of Khawaja; You just cannot use this title. The title was given by the Persian emperor (meaning Lords of Persia or Persian Lord) to the family of paternal side of the Mohammed who could trace their linage back to Abraham. Khawaja were Semites (Hebrews) , before Islam and were many of Quresh. The Persian wanted the same prestige as Rome. So the family of the Mohammed became known as Khawaja (Persian Lord or Lord of Persia).

They were involved in all important function of Persia from religion to military. In the religion context they were Masters and in military context they were field Marshalls. It is very important understand that Khawaja had spread Islam through the world and fought many battles, but largely they spread Islam through peace.

Khawaja are not Kashmiris, but originally from Arabia/Babylon. A revert to Islam cannot become a Khawaja, because Khawaja are the descendants of the holy bloodline/white nobility of Mohammed.

Would like to bring to the attention of the writer that this is actually a very Old Hebrew Title which literally meant Lord/Master of gentiles (people of the world), which did not belong to the bloodline. Khawaja's have been around for thousands of years. There has been a conspiracy to eradicate them from History. I can go as far to say most of the famous European/American Families and Banking Dynasties actually below to the Khawaja or Khawajah Lineage.

Hindu history

I had added a lot of content regarding the dashavatar and Imam Ali as Kalki, the tenth avatar longtime ago. It seems to have disappeared. Doesn't the khoja community care about their history and past beliefs ? Shakher59 21:20, 10 September 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shakher59 (talk • contribs)

Alphascript Publishing

I've removed the following VDM Publishing reference: Miller, Frederic; Vandome, Agnes. Genetics and Archaeogenetics of South Asia. Alphascript Publishing. ISBN 613029674. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: length (help) --Playmobilonhishorse (talk) 04:07, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

List of cited content removed from this article

2 August 2010 Delations by user Alamukht

Punjabi Khojas

“ any Hindu trader converted to Islam being known by that name. Thus, the Khojas of Shahpur are almost entirely Khatris, and a Khatri now becoming a Muslim in that district would be called a Khoja. The Khojas of Jhang, on the other hand are converted Rajputs; while some at least of the Lahore Khojas claim Bhatia origin, and one section of the Ambala Khojas are Kayasths. But in the north west Punjab and the northern districts of the North west Frontier Province, the term Paracha is preferred by Hindu traders converted to Islam, so that where the Parachas are recognised and wealthy community, Khoja is used for miscellaneous Muhammadan traders, chiefly hawkers and Pedlers, or at least petty traders, while in the eastern districts in the Derajat, where the Khojas are commercially important, paracha is used for ”

“ These Muhammadan traders, whether called Khoja or Paracha are found all along the northern portion of the two Provinces under the hills from Amritsar to Peshawar, and have spread southwards into the central and eastern districts of the Western Plains, but have not entered the Deajat or Muzzaffaragarh, in any numbers. Their eastern boundary is the Sutlej valley, their western the Jhelum-Chenab and they are found throughout the whole of the Salt Range. ”

“ In spite of their conversion to Islam the Khojas retain many traces of the Khatri caste organisation. Thus at Bhera in Shahpur they have the following sub-divisions: ”

1.Sahgal	4.Kanpur hyd	7.Gorawala
2.Wohra or Bhora	5.Duggal	8.Magun
3.Sethi	6.Rawar or Ror	9.Mahendru

“ The Khojas of Bhera claim to be strictly monogamous, so much so that as a rule a Khoja cannot obtain a second wife in the caste, even though his first have died and he is thus driven to take his second wife from some other Muhammadan tribe. The Khojas of Liah have the Khatri section - names of Kapur, Puri, Tandon and Ghambhir ”

Intothefire (talk) 17:00, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

"Khoja Case"

This article should contain a description of the 1866 "khoja case" and a further discussion of the ismaili/hanafi/ithna-asheri split

here is a starting point (although evidently biased) http://www.mostmerciful.com/book-3.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.73.234.38 (talk) 04:17, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Notables

• Khwaja Ahmad Yasavi (a Sufi Shaykh who was held in high esteem among Central Asian Turkic peoples)
• Khoja Nasreddin

Do these two notables belong to the Khoja communities of South Asia described in the article ? Thanks.Jonathansammy (talk) 21:59, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

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Etymology

Two issues (misunderstandings lost in translation)

The Religious root

Etymology organized, from Arabic Qom root (Hoja't Allah - حجة الله) was actually started in Qom by early Shia imams, the Ismaili states of the 11th-12th century still used Hojat Allah it appeared regularly in Persia, Egypt, Yemen, Syria.

Nizari Persianization of the term

Hassan-i Sabbah made Persian the language of the Nizari world and the transition to the use of Khoja started here. The fall of Ismailis states under the Ayyubids in Egypt, Yemen and Syria forced the most pious Ismaili population to migrate into Persia escaping Sunni persecution, a century later the Asiatic invasions of Persia forced another migration into Sindh/Gujarat, by this timeframe the term Khoja was used in its Persian context.

Relation with Khawaja

The derivatives, Khawaja/خواجه and Khoja/خوجه are etymologically related but not directly used in the same meaning. Khawaja/خواجه originally started as a Turkic derivative of Khoja in Turkic ruled Egypt, but evolved into the secular modern Egyptian-Arabic word that means Non-Arabic speaker. With Egyptian Arabic secular influence in the Arab World, the 21st century strictly secular term is commonly used to describe any foreigner (especially Europeans) in all Arabic speaking countries. Hojatalla (talk) 09:07, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Ismailism

That the Khojas are predominantly Ismaili is obvious and is reflected by the maincat Category:Khoja Ismailism, that other sects exist within the community has now also been reflected with this.

These cats can co-exist and should do so, repeated removals (such as here and here) evince either WP:IDONTLIKEIT or WP:CENSORED.

The same is the case in another article where both cats, reflecting the diverse origins, can co-exist as well. Gotitbro (talk) 21:22, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Origins

This source talks about the supposed origins of different sects within the Khoja community. Firstly Infobase is a general-reference source and should not be considered as such for WP:HISTRS matters and especially not for WP:CASTE origin stuff.

And as the text itself indicates, the 'Punjabi Khojas' (if a separate community as such was ever there) have largely been assimilated into the larger fold of that ethnicity and do not exist as a separate community now (cannot find a single individual who identifies or has been identified as such or anything major on 'Punjabi Khojas' as well). To use this source to overhall the description, lead and language (Infobase itself lists only Gujarati and Urdu and not Punjabi) is not correct and is misleading.

I was, and am, hard pressed to find any source that does not majorly describe this community other than one being from Gujarat; their origins not withstanding (also almost all Khojas within Pakistan who identify as such are from Gujarat as well). If better sources can be found they maybe taken to the history, origin etc. sections but that itself does not warrant a changing of the lead et. al. with regards to the basic makeup of the community. Gotitbro (talk) 07:22, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Regarding Removal

Greetings @Gotitbro. Could you explain the removal in more detail? I have concerns. The lead you restored is not supported by the Britannica ref. Also, are we not supposed to use academic refs when available and avoid Britannica? Sir Calculus (talk) 19:28, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I am not relying on the Britannica citation alone in relying on STABLE here, rather the whole gamut of sources that are present on the page and what most introductory references say about this group (also while secondary sources are preferable, for leads a general reliance can be made on tertiary sources e.g. Britannica).

Coming to the main discussion, the origins of groups such as the Khojas, Memons, Bohras etc. are not as clear cut as to form a direct link from Lohana (which itself is speculative) to these present-day communities. Rather they are a likely amalagamation of different groups. There was also a recent attempt to insert Punjabi as an origin in the lead (see the section above) some time back. We are better staving off multivaraiant historic ethnic speculations from leads about present-day groups. In leads the focus should be on the present identity associaton and status, the rest can be taken to the background et. al. sections.

Cheers Gotitbro (talk) 20:10, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I witnessed that awkward attempt. Regarding the lead, I am asking specifically about the part Originating from Gujrat. Sir Calculus (talk) 20:29, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

The group is predominantly described in sources as being from Gujarat/Gujarati-speaking that is why I let it remain. If "originating" is of concern, we can simply change it to "from"/"of". Gotitbro (talk) 03:30, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

They have a majority in Gujarat mostly (as supported by the ref). But the word "originating" is not supported by the ref. Could you add a quote to support it which does not conflict with other references? Sir Calculus (talk) 12:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

I think the recent genercization of the lead by Chariotrider555 looks fine and should settle the issue.

Cheers Gotitbro (talk) 11:52, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks! Sir Calculus (talk) 12:06, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello Everyone! I am submitting this evaluation of this Wikipedia page, as a part of class that I'm taking for college. :)

Which article are you evaluating? Khoja

Why you have chosen this article to evaluate? I chose this article as my grandfather's family comes from this ethno-religious group. This article matters as it is a part of preserving history and properly representing an ethnic group that has been subject to colonialism and misrepresented to this current day. It is important to have these people's voices be heard and their stories remembered. My preliminary impression was that this group wouldn't have too much of it's history shared yet on Wikipedia. While some parts of this is true, there are also aspects of the culture and group on the website that I'm happy to see.

Evaluate the article (Compose a detailed evaluation of the article here, considering each of the key aspects listed above. Consider the guiding questions, and check out the examples of what a useful Wikipedia article evaluation looks like.)

Lead section Right away the article does have a solid lead section. The introductory sentence does clearly describe the topic. We see that they tried to mention that this community has had historical roots in different regions of the world, but is lacking why they've had to travel to different lands and when they did so. The lead does not include a brief description of the article's major sections. There is no information in the lead that isn't in the article. I believe the lead is too vague and may need some more information on the historical background of the Khoja community.

Content The article's content is relevant to the topic and up to date. There isn't any information that doesn't belong. It deals with an equity gap by being a source to learn about an underrepresented group, but there aren't specific topics as to how and why they are underrepresented.

Tone and Balance The article is neutral. None of the claims seem heavily biased at all. No viewpoints are overrepresented though I believe that there is a lot of underrepresentation but that is most likely because people haven't wanted to put in the effort to truly explain the history of this community. There aren't many minority viewpoints being talked about in the article. The article is not persuasive by any means.

Sources and References Most of the facts in the article are backed up by reliable secondary sources of information. The sources are thorough and come from many professional academic journals. The sources are current and written by a diverse spectrum of authors. They do not include historically marginalized individuals though this is because most of the people that had the privilege of researching on groups like this tend to have been anthropologists from Europe that were able to pursue such careers. Almost all of the sources are from peer-reviewed articles. The links are properly working.

Organization and writing quality The writing is well-written and concise, clear, and easy to read. The article does not have any grammatical or spelling errors. The article is well-organized and is broken down into sections that reflect the major points of the topic.

Images and Media The articles includes some images to help readers get an understanding of who the Khojas are. The images are well-captioned. The images do adhere to Wikipedia's copyright regulations. The images are laid out in a visually appealing way.

Talk page discussion There are many kinds of conversations in the talk page. People are arguing about where the Khojas came from and what their historic roots really are. The article is rated start-class and is a part of 3 WikiProjects. The way Wikipedia discusses this topic differs then how we've talked about it in class, as there seems to be a lot of arguing in the talk page instead of being respectful to one another and having good faith. There isn't a lot of collaboration and seems to be a lot of people trying to express their opinion's without showing academic proof. Though oral history is important here as these are indigenous groups that have not had the luxuries of preserving their history in a more Western professional sense.

Overall impressions The article's overall status seems to be upkept and looking pretty well with lots of academic sources to back up claims. The strengths of the article is definitely the use of citations and the pictures that have been shared. The article can be improved by discussing more about the history of the Khoja's, and their migrations to East Africa - as this is a huge part of their current culture and identity. I believe in some ways the article is well-developed, such as how it is written, and for having starting the representation of this group. I think that it is also underdeveloped as there's a lot more work to do in helping tell the history and story of the Khoja's with more information for the world to know. --Huskyhero (talk) 06:54, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Online Communities

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 25 March 2024 and 7 June 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Huskyhero (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Huskyhero (talk) 01:57, 13 April 2024 (UTC)