Talk:Kenshiro Abbe

Dates

Several changes were made with the most basic reducing the list of dates to something more in line with wiki policy. I'll admit to getting tired and hence a little fast with the deletions but the article should be about Abbe not different organizations or students. Further, the way the article read Abbe's introduction of martial arts to Europe was single handed - not quite true. I tried to introduce a little less POV. There are preferences for articles about the martial arts outlined in karate=yes and Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles). Main point here is removing titles. I have one question - what was he chief instructor of with the Kyoto police. I'll modify the sentence in a couple of days if no one chimes in.Peter Rehse 09:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Removed class for biography and MA as the article has now been extensivly modified... Corky1979 17:34, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

You don't remove - you update. I took a look and feel it still remains in the Start class but is pretty close to BPeter Rehse 10:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I promoted the article to B - as I said it was borderline. The flow still needs a bit more work and more citations would be nice.Peter Rehse 04:13, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Requested move - Old

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No consensus to move.--Tbo ¹⁵⁷talk 22:37, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Suggest we go back to the original article name as this is an English language article and should use the English language version of his name. Comments? Corky1979 21:48, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

• I would support getting rid of the macron. Is there really consensus on Abbe? If so, we should use it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:09, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

• Support - The "official" website uses Kenshiro Abbe, and normal Wikipedia policy is to use the spelling most commonly used in the English-speaking world, even if this differs from the correct romanized version of the Japanese name. DAJF 01:05, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment The guidelines at WP:MOS-JP provide that the Revised Hepburn romanization is to be used for transliterating his name, unless it is widely known (especially published) with a different romanization. A website alone, regardless of how official it is, is probably not enough to establish this. The best measure would be how the name is romanized in publications, especially self publications. Hope that helps resolve the question, Bradford44 02:50, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
  • I see that Kenshiro Abbe gets 18,600 hits on Google compared to 672 for Kenshiro Abe. DAJF 03:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC).

Oppose- The kanji characters spelt out in Roman letters are A-be (not Abbe). Mijalo 15:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose – Abbe is in no way correct, but it is the most widely used version. I say keep the current version. —Leo Laursen ( T | C ) 07:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose Having a macron in the name doesn't mean that it's not written in the English language.--Húsönd 15:21, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Not necessarily; but in this case it appears to mean that the name is not spelled as the English spell it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:55, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
• Comment: I have found this letter online that is from Kenshiro Abbe (it's not relevant to the article), but he does seem to sign his name "K Abbe". It is also worth noting that in all of the references used to construct the article he is referred to as "Kenshiro Abbe". Corky1979 20:59, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: My feeling is that Kenshiro Abbe is probably the most appropriate as per comments of DAJF. I realize that Kenshiro Abbe would still work in a search so I can't get too worked up about the issue but I do have to point out the huge amount of work if we start inserting macrons into existant titles. In this article you would have to go through and make sure you are internally consistent. I think it was enough to have the correct form in brackets beside the name at the top of the article.Peter Rehse 01:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

The work on macronning Japan-related articles has been going on for at least a year now; I'm not a big advocate of the process, but a lot of the people who add the macrons to titles are very committed to doing so, and I don't think the work involved is something we need to consider here. Dekimasuよ! 07:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I second that. --Hirohisat ^Talk 04:00, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Postscript on requested move -- Old

I was surprised to see the that outcome of this discussion was not to rename or move this page, especially as even one of the two editors opposing the proposal (unwittingly?) used an argument in favour of renaming, namely: Abbe is [ ... ] the most widely used version. I'm sure the renaming debate will reappear in the future, so for future reference, editors might like to consider the following pages for Japanese celebrities, for which the commonly-used spellings of their names have been chosen in preference to the "correct" Romanized Japanese.

• Maki Ohguro
• Kohmi Hirose
• Kenji Johjima
• Sadaharu Oh

Hopefully it will become apparent that Kenshirō Abe is not the most appropriate title for this article. DAJF 02:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Move. Well, Bradford44 argument nailed it. Duja► 14:29, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

---

Further to my request to move the article above I thought it was worth reopening the request based on this letter that I found very late on in the last discussion. The letter is signed "K Abbe", which seems to acknowledge that he himself spelt his name with two "b"'s. If you look at the image in the article, there is a poster on the wall over his left shoulder that also spells his name "Kenshiro Abbe". I have also looked at other sources on the Internet. The Aikido Development Society website references "Kenshiro Abbe" as the person who introduced British Aikido. The Kyushindo Martial Arts Association, MayoShinDo and Zen Judo also all acknowledge "Kenshiro Abbe" as the person who brought their styles to the UK. With all of this, it makes sense for the spelling of the article to follow the most widely used way, which is "Kenshiro Abbe" (without the macron and with two "b"'s for Abbe. Corky1979 16:52, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose: Taken apart, both Kenshirō (謙四郎) and Abe (阿部) are fairly common names, and everywhere transliterated as here. The only valid argument for the move is that the form Kenshiro Abbe has been used consistently for more than fifty years in the UK for this man. I believe it is more or less a coincidence – Kenshiro because ō or ô was unusual and difficult to type, and Abbe because it was more likely to be pronounced somewhat like his Japanese name than Abe.
  It seems that the move is already requested, so I added a template at the top, and changed the header. —Leo Laursen ( T | C ) 18:49, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - As was the case with editors opposing the move in the previous survey, your argument opposing the move is actually in support of the move. You wrote: The only valid argument for the move is that the form Kenshiro Abbe has been used consistently for more than fifty years in the UK for this man. That is precisely what this discussion is about: how the name for this particular person should be written - not how the Japanese name 阿部謙四郎 should be correctly romanized. --DAJF 02:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
    • No, I'm saying that I oppose. And I'm saying that in case of consensus for the move, it should be based on these facts. You actually seem to agree with the last part, so why not just voice Your support. —Leo Laursen ( T | C ) 10:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
• Very strong support; we should spell names as English does. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support - I'm sorry Leolaursen, but I disagree with you. --Тhε Rαnδom Eδιτor 23:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support the rule at WP:MOS-JP#Names of modern figures should be followed. I will repeat the relevant portion here:

“ Spelling, including macron usage, of the name of a modern figure should adhere to the following, in order of preference:

1. Use the official trade name if available in English/Latin alphabet;
2. Use the form found in a dictionary entry from a generally-accepted English dictionary;
3. Use the form publicly used on behalf of the person in the English-speaking world;
4. Use the form publicly used on behalf of the person in any other popular Latin-alphabet-using language (French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, German, and Dutch, or variations); or
5. If none of the above is available, use the macronned form.

”

Since his name is essentially never romanized as Kenshirō Abe, and more importantly has no history of being published as Abe, the rule dictates it be Kenshiro Abbe. Note also that the only "dictionary" I'm aware of his name appearing in is the Encyclopedia of Aikido, which also writes it as Kenshiro Abbe. Applying the rule to these facts is fairly conclusive for "Kenshiro Abbe" unless someone can produce an equal or greater volume of examples of the macronned and single 'b' form. Bradford44 23:46, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• Support. Forgot to vote provide an opinion above and am surprised there was no consensus considering the ample evidence. — AjaxSmack 07:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Failed GA

I have failed this article because

• It severely lacks references
• The references that are presented fail WP:RS. Some are hosted on geocitites or the recreational website of a university member
• Teh picture needs a more thourough Fair Use rationale
• Lead is used inappropriately. The birth details should not be in the lead. The lead is supposed to summarise the core features of the article.
• The anecdotal section at the bottom needs to be incorporated into the article better. IF it is an example which shows his style or character, then perhaps a style section should be made. An anecdote section separately is unencyclopedic. Some of the anecdotes are especially POV
• One line sentences need to be integrated into paragraphs to express a key idea.

Best regards. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:00, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Article revision - April 2010

On 24 February 2008, more than two years ago, Corky1979 added this article to the karate=yes/Navbox|WPMA Navbox to request a peer review. Since that time, the article has had less than 30 edits. Looking at the article today, there are currently seven 'citation needed' tags, and several other parts of the text also need references. I will try to help improve this article as best I can. Janggeom (talk) 03:20, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Good work so far, but a number of problems have been introduced due to the use of unreliable sources. The BJC was formed by Abbe and Bill Wood in 1958. Masutaro Otani (not Mutsutharu) was not strictly a founder, and had his own organisation, the MOSJ, that later merged with the BJC. The IBC was an umbrella organisation, formed by Abbe in the late 1950s to help unite his various budo councils... how could it have sent Abbe to the UK? Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 07:37, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback. Please note that: (1) the article is a work in progress; (2) I contribute to Wikipedia on a voluntary basis; and (3) I contribute to Wikipedia as an independent researcher in my own right. I do not dispute that there might be parts of the article (as it currently stands) that need improvement, but I encourage you to bear in mind the three points I have listed. I appreciate the information you have provided so far on my talk page, and will go through it as I have the time. Thank you. Janggeom (talk) 11:03, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Those three points are the very nature of Wikipedia, and you're doing a good job. The references by Bagot and Cavalcanti are extremely troubling, however, for a number of reasons. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 12:03, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

While there is certainly still room for improvement, I have rewritten this article and believe it is now at a much better standard than it was a few days ago. I had originally planned to review the article (since it had been listed for peer review), but ended up rewriting it, as I felt that would be of more benefit. It is clear that the period from 1955 to 1985 was marked by political and organisational complications; I have tried to present as factual and as neutral an account as I can, with the time I have been able to put in during the past few days. I will post a request on WPMA's discussion page requesting a review. Janggeom (talk) 07:35, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

It certainly is of a much better standard.

At some point I'll make a detailed list of improvements that can be made (when I have time). One point that jumps out is the part about his return to Britain. This was in 1969 rather than 1967. The mention of Abbe's disappointment with the BJC on his return is somewhat misleading... the source of this disappointment was the breaking away of a group of clubs which formed a rival association, the "BJC (MAC)". This is covered in the reference by Henry Otani. Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 10:45, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Fantastic job on the article! I made a start and then just ran out of time to continue it, much to my own annoyance (a change of career does that sometimes). It is certainly much improved from the version I originally created and I thank you for spending your time on this. Let me know if I can be of any help though! Corky1979 (talk) 20:21, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback. Please feel welcome to review the article (if you feel that it has changed sufficiently from when you last edited it for you to be able to provide a reasonably independent assessment) or improve it if you can. Janggeom (talk) 08:07, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Date of photograph in infobox

The photo is from either late 1963 or early 1964. The poster behind him advertises the Royal Albert Hall judo championships in 1963 and reads:

NATIONAL JUDO CHAMPIONSHIPS
THE ROYAL ALBERT HALL
Manager CM Hoffer (?)
Saturday 23rd November 1963 at 7.30pm
Demonstrations of
Judo Karate
Kendo Aikido
etc.

Catfish Jim and the soapdish (talk) 20:43, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. The caption on the photograph on Wikipedia claims that the picture is a "photograph of Kenshiro Abbe shortly after his arrival in the UK" (hence the change to c. 1955). The poster detail you have supplied obviously contradicts that. I looked for a larger version and found this and this; interestingly, the first source gives Abbe's kendo master's first name, which I haven't seen anywhere else. Janggeom (talk) 00:33, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Feedback to Jessehp10

Originally posted on Jessehp10's talk page just now:
Hello Jessehp10, I note that you have again removed Henry Ellis from the notable students section in the Kenshiro Abbe article. I do not see any justification for you to do so; as you can see in the article, Ellis was a student of Abbe and has written several articles and at least one book about him. If you believe that Ellis should not be listed, please specify your reasons. On a related note, I see that you have been inserting Leon Mason as a notable student, but a Google search shows no evidence that he was a notable student of Abbe, or even that he was a student of him at all. If you believe that Mason should be listed, please supply appropriate references in the articles. I also note that you removed a citation tag noting that references were needed for Mason's inclusion, without supplying any references to address the concern. This makes it difficult to continue assuming good faith. I trust this feedback helps. Janggeom (talk) 09:49, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

GA nomination

I have nominated this article for GA review. I believe that it meets the standards for promotion to GA class, but if this turns out not to be the case, I would appreciate any constructive feedback on improving the article. Thank you. Janggeom (talk) 07:48, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

This article has a dead link that unfortunately is used multiple times. In some cases, there is also a backup link so perhaps you could just remove it. In other cases, you will have to find a substitute reference to cite. Regards, Xtzou (Talk) 12:29, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your note, but I tried the link just now and the article is accessible. Janggeom (talk) 12:39, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kenshiro Abbe/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Xtzou (Talk) 13:03, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I am reviewing this article. The main problem is a dead link that unfortunately is used very frequently (47 times) as a reference.[1] Once the problem is taken care of, I will review the rest of the article. I have made some copy edits to ensure prose quality and compliance with the MoS. Regards, Xtzou (Talk) 13:03, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

The Morgan and Ellis (2006) link, which you had tagged, appears to be working normally. The IBC UK (2007) reference appeared as a dead link but I have checked and updated it, so all reference links appear to be functioning. Janggeom (talk) 13:28, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

ok. Xtzou (Talk) 14:15, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality: Well written

   B. MoS compliance: Complies with required elements of MOS

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources: Reliable sources

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary: Well referenced

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects: Sets the context

   B. Focused: Remains focused on the topic

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail: Pass!

Congratulations! Xtzou (Talk) 14:15, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your (exceptionally speedy) review. Janggeom (talk) 14:20, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Reg Bleakman

I deleted an edit that introduced material about Reg Bleakman, who claimed to have developed his style Atemi Jutsu with Kenshiro Abbe. Bleakman has been a controversial figure in UK martial arts and the claims made about him should be taken with a pinch of salt. See for example this thread on the Judo Forum in which Bleakman's supposed relationship to Abbe is discussed. Certainly there are no reliable sources to cite here. Catfish Jim & the soapdish 10:23, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

External links modified

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Peter Thornley

Possible subject area for inclusion in the article: Peter Thornley, best known as the original masked British version of Kendo Nagasaki
Claims to have studied judo under Abbe before turning to wrestling after losing a finger. He makes this claim in his biography Kendo Nagasaki - The Man Behind The Mask and in various media interviews such as 1, 2 3 and 4. The association has been listed in print as far back as 1970 - example 4 which also makes the claim - repeated in Thornley's biography 48 years later - that the sword Thonrley used in character as Nagasaki was a gift from Abbe.
This slide show of the photo album Abbe's former aide Bill Reeve shows Thornley on the right at 4:26 - Kev Chadwick, the son of one of the other two people in the photograph identifies his father plus Thornley and the third person in the picture in the comments section below. 62.190.148.115 (talk) 14:21, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Have added about Thornley's claims of study under Abbe. Thornley's appearance in Bill Reeve's photo album can go in some day if either (1) the photo album is published in a book or magazine, or (2) a reliable source makes mention of the Youtube upload and Thonrley's appearance in it. In either of these two cases, the secondary source should be cited rather than the actual Youtube video.Romomusicfan (talk) 08:41, 6 September 2019 (UTC)