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Talk:Kenneth MacMillan/GA1

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GA Review

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Reviewer: Seattle (talk · contribs) 02:41, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I will review this soon. Seattle (talk) 02:41, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Top hatnote redirects to just Kenneth McMillan, without the "disambiguation" in its title
  • First ref in ref 24 needs a subscription required, as does ref 16
  • In both tables, titles that start with articles should be sorted by the next non-article word (i.e The Prince of the Pagodas should sort as "Prince of the Pagodas, The").
    • I've removed the sortability throughout. A plain table will do very well for GA purposes, and we are in any case considering hiving the lists off to their own page, as we did for e.g. the FA John Gielgud and FL John Gielgud, roles and awards. All the points you mention about the sorting labels will, of course, be attended to then. Ought I in the circumstances remove the duplicate links within the tables, do you think? Tim riley talk 17:27, 28 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think you ought not do that. If you're going to split it, which I wouldn't recommend because I don't think it's long enough (the sheer number of MacMillan's works certainly pale to Gielgud's, and MacMillan's page is only 3030 words compared to Gielgud's 8460), then you would have to re-link the terms later if you wanted to take it to featured list status, like Gielgud's page. I'm not opposed to removing the sortability for a GA, but for featured list status, if you made the split, you should re-add the sortability for the "Title", "Year", "Company", "Composer", and "Designer" columns. If you leave the list in the article, which I recommend, I would re-add the sortability before making it a featured article candidate. Seattle (talk) 00:03, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's fine. Go to the middle-left of the old file. Remove the URL from the information template for the file at the Commons, and cite the pamphlet (with the textual information starting at "S. Hurok Presents") from the photo as the source for the file. That should be fine for the source. Seattle (talk) 00:03, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Other files look good.

@Tim riley: OK, some replies. Seattle (talk) 00:07, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

All text suggestions now attended to, I think. I'll go and edit the Fonteyn image page as you suggest. Tim riley talk 17:57, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And now done. Tim riley talk 22:52, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I will start the text review soon. Seattle (talk) 20:02, 23 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if it will be of any help in your review, but a Wikicolleague kindly gave the article an informal review here, on the talk page in advance of this GA nomination. Tim riley talk 22:52, 29 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Introduction

  • After being accepted by Ninette de Valois as a student and then a member of the Sadler's Wells Ballet in the late 1940s, MacMillan built a successful career as a dancer, but, plagued by stage fright, he abandoned it while still in his twenties. can you break this into two sentences? Chronologically, it seems like it spans a lengthy amount of time for one sentence. Also, accepted by Ninette de Valois as a student might be better as "accepted as a student by Ninette de Valois". A clause on who de Valois was and what she accomplished might also be worth a mention.
  • After this his work was entirely as a choreographer this might be British English, but could you just cut the passive and rephrase to "After this he worked entirely as a choreographer"?

Early years

  • who was a labourer and sometime cook Might be British English, but "sometime cook" reads awkwardly to me. I think it comes from "sometime cook"'s use as a position parallel to labourer.
  • The grammar school returned to Great Yarmouth in 1944, and MacMillan found a new ballet teacher there. This was Phyllis Adams, with whose help MacMillan, aged fifteen, secured admission to the Sadler's Wells Ballet School (later the Royal Ballet School). This reads awkwardly to me; does "MacMillan found Phyllis Adams, a new ballet teacher, when the grammar school returned to Great Yarmouth in 1944; with Adams' help, MacMillan, aged fifteen, secured admission to the Sadler's Wells Ballet School (later the Royal Ballet School)." work?

Dancer

  • In April 1946 MacMillan was a founder member, and quickly made progress, being cast by de Valois' principal choreographer, Frederick Ashton, in a leading role in a new ballet, Valses nobles et sentimentales, in October 1946. Too many clauses. When you rephrase, can you switch the "principal choreographer" clause with Ashton, so that he's the main focus? I ask because Ashton's mentioned below as well.
  • In April 1946 MacMillan was a founder member, What's a "founder member"?
  • music by Frank Martin. I think the ambiguous phrasing Brianboulton highlighted above can apply here as well.
Excellent suggestions so far. I look forward to more, and am grateful for the thoroughness of your review. Tim riley talk 18:21, 31 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Choreographer

  • who was his muse This sounds idiomatic?
    • Yes, I think so, definitely, and is the word used by several of the sources. Tim riley talk 20:23, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • The MOS recommends to avoid idioms; do reword. Seattle (talk) 21:43, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • This is so frequently used in the sources that I think I'll stick with it. I think we must be using the word "idiomatic" in two different and incompatible ways. Perhaps it means something different where you are, but as an English writer I believe that all good writing should be idiomatic, that is to say "Adhering to the manner of expression considered natural to or distinctive of a language" (Oxford English Dictionary). The phrasing I use here is entirely so, me judice. Tim riley talk 22:03, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
          • Yes, thanks for the clarification. I'm using idiom to mean a "special mode of expression, use or grouping of words, peculiar to a specific language". I see Wiktionary defines "muse" as a source of inspiration, and makes no mention of an idiomatic use, so that's fine. I wasn't familiar with the word... Seattle (talk) 00:47, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Tim riley talk 22:40, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Das Lied von der Erde (The Song of the Earth) Use {{lang-en|''The Song of the Earth''}} for the translation, and use italicize it as well, as The Song of the Earth is used later in italics.

Berlin, 1966–69

  • Some other information I found, of possible use (but certainly worth a review for comprehensiveness): [2] (p. 81), which describes his relationship with Dutilleux and Métaboles. MacMillan's gala on 23 November 1978 was "the first time a British choreographer was honored with a gala focusing on his work at the [Paris] Opéra"). [3] lists Crisp's reviews of MacMillan's works.
    • These are all covered in Jann Parry's wonderful (and huge) book about MacMillan, but in filtering all the sources down to the essentials I haven't thought it appropriate to include them. Truth to tell, even if (per impossibile) I were to take this to FAC I'm not sure how much of them I'd be inclined to use. Tim riley talk 20:23, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Royal Ballet: director 1970–77

  • Can you clarify why Ashton was prodded to retirement? This isn't clear from the text.
  • It was widely known that Ashton had been eased out "Eased out" is idiomatic; can you clarify what exactly happened?
  • to which MacMillan and Field were party, What does this mean? Is this British English, idiomatic, or simply my ignorance?

Royal Ballet: principal choreographer 1977–92

  • familiar to Covent Garden audiences from Berg's 1925 opera Wozzeck is this opera performed continually? Why should they be familiar with a work performed in 1925? Is this an idiom?
    • The opera is a repertoire piece and has been frequently revived in opera houses all over the world since its premiere in 1925. Apart from the late operas of Richard Strauss and all the operas of Britten it is, I suppose, one of the last operas to enter the regular operatic repertory. Heavy going, though, with not many laughs or tunes. Tim riley talk 20:23, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Royal Ballet: principal choreographer 1977–92

  • Along with the former Bolshoi principal dancer, Irek Mukhamedov, Is the first comma necessary here?
  • MacMillan died from a heart attack, backstage at the Royal Opera House, during a performance of Mayerling. I don't think this should be a clause, given that the main statement of the next sentence uses the clause as pretense to its main subject.

Honours and awards

Passing as a good article. It's close to featured status– do consider listing it there as well. Seattle (talk) 21:06, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your exceptionally thorough review, and also for your kind suggestion in re FAC. I think GA is about right for the article as it stands, but I'll certainly bear in mind your encouraging thought about FAC. Meanwhile, reciprocating, if I can review any GAN candidate of your choice it will be my pleasure to do so. Tim riley talk 21:56, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
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