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Requested move 31 July 2020

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved as amended -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:22, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]


– The character's main series is the first, and primary topic in it's franchise, Beverly Hills, 90210. There's no need to disambiguate it using a series the character appeared only on a few episodes (90210). See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television)#Episode and character articles, Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction for more guidance. Cvhcsee (talk) 05:00, 31 July 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 00:26, 22 August 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 17:41, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As per WP:NCTV, the full title of the original TV series should be used to disambiguate – so the current RM proposal is correct. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:21, 12 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:IJBall, I just want to make sure you're paying attention to everything that's being said. Once again: the "90210" in this article's title does refer to the original 1990 series Beverly Hills, 90210, not the 2008 spin-off 90210. The title "Kelly Taylor (90210)" was created with the original series in mind. Why? Because "90210" was the original show's nickname loooong before the spin-off was ever made. The original show is refered to by that nickname in this 1992 article (sixteen years before the spin-off existed), in this 1998 article (ten years before the spin-off), and in this 2014 article (one year after the spin-off ended).
If you think the title should change due to the policy you mentioned before, then, by all means, support the change. But please be receptive to what others are telling you: the title was not created in reference to the spin-off. -- James26 (talk) 06:07, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
None of which is relevant. 1) The actual title of the original series is Beverly Hills, 90210 not "90210". 2) WP:NCTV is clear that the actual series title should be used for disambiguation purposes, not some shorthand. 3) Disambiguation is supposed to avoid confusion, not add to it – the current disambiguation used is confusing, because it appears to refer to the spinoff series, and not the original, but the character originated in the original series. Finally, hearing what other editors are saying doesn't require one to agree with them, or to concede that they are "right" when they are not. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 14:14, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:IJBall, it seems you keep missing the point. It has nothing to do with "agreeing or disagreeing" with other editors, it's just about acknowledging what others are saying. I've already acknowledged WP:NCTV, and I'm not opposing it. I'm clearing up your confusion. You stated, "90210 refers to the sequel series not the original," and we've tried telling you that you're incorrect in this particular case, because that is not what this article's title refers to. I'm pretty sure that what you're trying to say is that someone could assume the title to refer to the spin-off. If so, that's how you should've replied to В²C, rather than simply saying that В²C was "incorrect." Likewise, В²C should consider your points about policy too. Anyway, it's up to consensus. -- James26 (talk) 18:41, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
And I'm telling you it doesn't matter what you and others think, "90210" 1) cannot be used to refer to the original series (as it's not its title), and 2) is ambiguous even it it were. So "90210" is a horrible disambiguation choice here, and it's against guideline.... But, to be clear, I also don't oppose moving the character article to the "base title", and doing so does sidestep this whole controversy. But, once again, the original RM proposal is correct in this case. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:05, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
NCTV explicitly allows names other than the full name of the series when another name is more commonly used to refer to the series, which 90210 most surely is. More generally, The purpose of disambiguation is to distinguish from other uses of that name. If this was the only Kelly Taylor covered on WP no disambiguation would be needed at all. 90210 more than adequately disambiguates from the other uses of Kelly Taylor. Adding “Beverly Hills” is totally unnecessary disambiguation. Look at the dab page at Kelly Taylor. No issue at all. What problem are we fixing? There is no problem. Finally, the character appears in both series. Using the full original series as disambiguation incorrectly implies that the character appears only in the original series. That is incorrect. —-В²C ☎ 06:32, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry. Now I have to disagree. WP:NCTV does not explicitly allows names other than the full name of the series at all, as 1) it refers to the character itself, not the shows name, 2) it says except when an alias (of the character) or other name (of the character) is much more common (e.g Silver (90210) from the same franchise). 3) To refer the original series with only 90210 is not much more common (especially after the new 90210 series). 4) Even if we had to use the franchise name, what is the name of the franchise, anyway? 5) We wont start changing the names of the characters of other TV shows to keep mere nicknames, such as Spike (Buffy the Vampire Slayer) to Spike (Buffy) (its a redirect), Mango (Saturday Night Live) to Mango (SNL) or John Black (Days of Our Lives) to John Black (DOOL). For further information, see Category:Crossover characters in television to notice a pattern of how a character (that appears in more than one TV show) article title stands when it needs the series disambiguation. Cvhcsee (talk) 18:50, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Doh! I misread. Thanks! Stricken. The rest stands. —В²C ☎ 21:22, 24 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Considering it is, in deed, its notable short name, I will put this short title in the main parent article of the series. Thx. Cvhcsee (talk) 16:14, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: ". . .so the current RM proposal is correct."
I didn't say it was incorrect. I was just pointing out that the numbers don't refer to the spin-off, since that seemed to be a concern. Again, I have no stance on the title of this article. -- James26 (talk) 06:57, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Prior to the relist in this timestamp, the "Kelly Taylor → Kelly Taylor (disambiguation)" part of the move request was not present. I have added it to the move request since one of the proposed options in the move request thus far would affect that disambiguation page. I'm also listing the disambiguation page in hopes of attracting more participation in this discussion to determine consensus (such as the new title of the article if it is moved.)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Steel1943 (talk) 17:41, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I proposed the original moving but now I support the new improved proposal, per pageviews. Cvhcsee (talk) 06:49, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I also don't object to moving the BH 90210 character article to the base title, and moving the WP:DABPAGE as newly proposed. In general, I don't think it's a great idea to put character articles at base pages, but this probably qualifies as one of the exceptions. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:50, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, all articles are fine as they are, shuffling pages has a cost to consistency with downstream uses, and this has no benefit. Iconic lowbrow popular culture from both countries. While Jennie Garth may be the most viewed Kelly Taylor, Brooke Kinsella is well known to a completely separate audience, and the audience of both can be unaware of the other. Although popular, these are unimportant topics, and in general it is a bad idea to force a locally popular unimportant fictional topic to a basename. Kelly Clarkson's Kelly Taylor seals the approval the the existence of the DAB page.
Oppose "(90210)" --> "(Beverly Hills, 90210)" per CONCISE, 90210 is synonymous with Beverly Hills for anyone remotely interested.
Support "Kelly Taylor redirect to Kelly Taylor (disambiguation)" so that the ambiguous title is not offered in the Go To dropdown list, and everyone who wants the (non-article) DAB page recognizes it easily, and everyone who doesn't want the DAB page is not cursed with getting it unwanted. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:58, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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