Talk:Kayla Mueller

Notable?

How isn't this WP:BLP1E? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:36, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

David Cawthorne Haines, Alan Henning, Peter Kassig all received similar worldwide coverage for being a ISIL hostage. Strangely some editors think even someone like Brittany Wiser with near zero notability or press coverage gets an article. Legacypac (talk) 23:58, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

This article is most likely not notable currently, but upcoming events will probably make it one. What's the difference in notability between it and the article of Muath al-Kasasbeh? - Wuvixx (talk) 09:08, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

change title of article

I suggest that either the article is changed to be "Death of ISIL hostage Kayla Mueller" and reduced to a less biographical obituary (which it is going to quickly turn into) and more an event wiki or that the article is stricken and that Kayla's name is added to another appropriate wiki that lists deaths and murders associated with the ISIL terrorist group(s). This should be done as soon as the details of her death are confirmed. Memorial sites can take up where the article leaves off, of course. R.I.P., Ms. Mueller — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.176.19.2 (talk) 17:24, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

In a perfect Wikiworld, she wouldn't have an article, and people like "Eighteen Syrian soldiers" in ISIL beheading incidents would get names. People should only have articles if they've done something notable. Everything here is about what was done to her. Even her organization is a redlink. If she'd have been any other American, the story would stay the same, only the bio would change. That country forbids family members from negotiating releases (counts as funding a terrorist).

But we live in the real world, and so long as the press runs humanizing feature piecese about these interchangeable Western folks, it's going to seem like they were the significant ones. If things seem one way in Google News, Wikipedia will feel it. That extends way beyond ISIS or America, though ISIS and America play a part in why Google treats some propaganda as news and the other as objectionable content. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:53, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

She did quite a bit of humanitarian work and thats not notable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.117.110.109 (talk) 17:23, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

No, not in itself. That's a common thing for young folks (and a few old ones). If that work had been covered by the media before it became part of this event's backstory, it'd be different. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:13, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Short she appeared in

In case it somehow gets added to the article. She gets one line and in onscreen for about 6 seconds.

http://vimeo.com/32767625

Richard-of-Earth (talk) 18:19, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

private comm

"We have sent you a private message and ask that you respond to us privately" <did encryption was used and if what kind of encryption? If not the sentence is naive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.90.196.227 (talk) 06:10, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I assume they mean "private" like not through government or media channels. No hoopla. Just one human to another. Whether it was encrypted or not doesn't really matter, unless they didn't share it with the NSC willingly. I think they did. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:25, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Shoebat article

I don't want to get involved in editing this article, but this article (admittedly from a site I've never heard of), does present a different light, much of which strikes me as legitimate: http://shoebat.com/2015/02/10/kayla-mueller-anti-israel-activist-human-shield-palestinian-terror-groups/ - kosboot (talk) 00:12, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually more sources are emerging. These look more usable:

• http://www.israelsvoice.org/2015/02/11/kayla-mueller-was-an-ism-activist-and-human-shield-for-palestinian-terror-groups/
• http://palsolidarity.org/2015/02/ism-honors-kayla-mueller/

-- kosboot (talk) 00:30, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Those three sites all have clearly apparent political agendas, and the second is just a copy of the first. Not sure if any would count as reliable sources. Of course, the info is more important than the source. What in particular strikes you as legitimate? InedibleHulk (talk) 03:52, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

All newspapers/reportage have political agendas. Israel's Voice is clearly pro-Israeli (which I don't feel is a problem, particularly in a part of the world where anti-Israel attitudes are not considered a problem). PAL is clearly pro-Palestinian and anti-Israeli. For both of these to have a similar opinion on Mueller says something about the emerging picture of what she was doing. kosboot (talk) 12:31, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't really any part of the world. Do you mean where you live? In any case, yes, newspapers lean, some more blatantly than others. Again, the info's important. What parts of that do you want in here? InedibleHulk (talk) 00:00, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

If we are going to include Shoebat as a source we should also include Electronic Intifada, which reported on how supporters of Israel are celebrating her death. (Including people editing this Wikipedia article, apparently). FiredanceThroughTheNight (talk) 16:57, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Accusations of Extremism

"Kayla Jean Mueller (August 14, 1988 – c. February 6, 2015) was an American far-left anti-Semitic extremist and part of the Arab terrorist organization that calls itself "International Solidarity Movement" (citation needed) from Prescott, Arizona, taken captive in August 2013 in Aleppo, Syria, while leaving a Doctors Without Borders hospital."

To what extent has this claim been substantiated? It sounds like right wing rhetoric... libelous rhetoric, at that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gaquitaine (talk • contribs) 10:18, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

I note that this first paragraph has been changed to the following:

"Kayla Jean Mueller (August 14, 1988 – c. February 6, 2015) was an American human rights activist and humanitarian aid worker from Prescott, Arizona, taken captive in August 2013 in Aleppo, Syria, while leaving a Doctors Without Borders hospital."

I take this to mean that the aforementioned accusations are without merit. Gentil Aquitaine 10:43, 12 February 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gaquitaine (talk • contribs)

I made that [second] edit. If the accuser wants to make cases about International Solidarity Movement or the African Refugees Development Center, this page isn't the place to start (they both have their own pages). Otherwise it's not really much more than trolling, is it? Lobsterwhistle (talk) 10:53, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

It must have been a troll. It looks like whoever authored the first quote simply changed what was in the first paragraph (the rest of the article did not follow from such an inflammatory statement). Ms. Mueller has been the subject of hateful and incendiary attacks from the right wing blogosphere in the United States, especially from those bloggers with an enthusiasm for Likud policy in Israel. Lacking a factual basis for such attacks, I guess they are trying to fabricate one.Gentil Aquitaine 11:22, 12 February 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gaquitaine (talk • contribs)

Protected edit request on 12 February 2015

Under Activism Work you can also add her participation in Flagstaff Food Not Bombs https://gldngrn.wordpress.com/tag/npr/ 76.109.102.148 (talk) 23:14, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Wordpress isn't a reliable source, and this author has a conflict of interest, being Mueller's old friend. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:02, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

This is a better source for that claim. I see I'm locked out, too. Any admin want to do this? InedibleHulk (talk) 00:07, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Please remove the piping of Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant to just "Islamic State" as this is inconsistent with how Wikipedia terms the group. Also replace each ISIS with ISIL for consistency. Legacypac (talk) 05:32, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Not done: I've changed the protection to semi-protection for two weeks plus pending changes for a year, so autoconfirmed users should be able to edit the article now. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 09:43, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

I've changed them all to "ISIS". This is consistent with the majority of sources we use here. Also removed the pipe. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:29, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kayla Mueller/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: BenLinus1214 (talk · contribs) 23:43, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Currently second on my "to review" list, after "Mr. Monk Gets a New Shrink". BenLinus1214^talk 23:43, 1 August 2015 (UTC) @Shhhhwwww!!: Comments

I'm sorry, but I believe that there is a good amount of work to be done before this article can be listed. You don't seem to have contributed much or at all to the article and are not very experienced at GAN--I recommend that you familiarize yourself with the good article criteria if you have not already. I would prefer that you respond here, but if after seven days (or fewer if I see that you are editing and not responding to the review) the comments are not required, then the article will have to fail. Anyways, let's get into this:

Lead

• This lead is much too short and not comprehensive. Particularly, her humanitarian work prior to capture and reactions to her death should be expanded.
• It seems bizarre to just have the "Media had long reported" sentence without other crucial details being included in the lead.

Activism and humanitarian aid

• Most of the paragraph of this section (up to the footnote) is unsourced—her education is not included in the source, as well as many of the listed types of humanitarian work.
• Put a subscription parameter for ref 2.
• I dislike that you've primarily sourced this section with what appears to be either her official website or a website designed to promote and support her and her causes. If this is the latter, why is it a reliable source? The material in this part, especially the bullet points, reads like a résumé.
• Most of this material is irrelevant and much too detailed as well.

Capture and death

• What makes "The Gateway Pundit" reliable? It just looks like this random guy's political blog.
• I'm a bit troubled by the Shoebat source. While it looks like a news site, if you dig deeper, it's primarily done by these two relatives who are very biased against Islam in general. Because it is a news-driven piece used to state facts, I think I can accept it, but what is your rationale for using it compared to other news sources that could provide the same information? :) (BTW, I'm okay with you using Fox News--it's a mainstream news source).
• Could you be more specific than "militants abducted her"?
• The chronological order part of this is a bit all over the place--you talk about the rescue mission, then skip ahead a few months, then go back to the rescue mission.
• "The Pentagon agreed…with the family's consent." The "not in citation given" tag is well-placed here, making most of this paragraph unsourced.

Reactions

• There's a lot more in the "family" subsection that can be done, and I've seen more pieces of information in the sources you already have.
• The first part of the "government" subsection isn't a reaction to her death, per se. So it should be in the previous section. Also, the Obama part should be in the reactions section.
• "After many Western news outlets…" What news outlets? What did they say? This whole topic must be expanded. This seems to be a big part of the reactions to her announced death and it's given very little time.
• I don't think you need the hashtags and caps locks in the tweets.
• I'm sure there are other examples of Jordanian officials reacting to the tragedy, no?
• The source about the Pentagon declining to investigate appears to be relatively long--could you include more on their rationale behind not investigating?
• The whole Time part is quite non-neutral--you can't use phrases like "her selfless desire to end suffering", "her desire not to be seen, but to genuinely help people", or "possession of Millennials' positive good [this is redundant] qualities…" in the encyclopedia's voice. Using short quotes and phrases like "what they saw as blank" would be a lot better.

External links

• This is a funny collection of external links. Why were these chosen?

@Shhhhwwww!!: If you would like to start/keep working on this article, I recommend that you take these comments to heart and possibly get a copyedit or peer review before renominating. On hold for seven days, until you respond and tell me that you would like me to fail for now and renominate in the future, or until I see that you have contributed to other articles without responding here. Thank you!

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, no copyvios, spelling and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

   none recently

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   no images in the article currently--could use some in the form of photos of Catherine Herridge or Aafia Siddiqui in the capture and death section and one of Obama or Nasser Judeh in the reactions section.

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Fail it for now. I am too busy at the moment to work on this. Maybe someone else could work on this but I am sure it won't E me. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 07:01, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Okay. Fail as the article currently does not meet criteria 1b, 2b, 3a, 3b, and 6, and 4 is questionably met. BenLinus1214^talk 14:25, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Assault by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi

This was reported by a number of credible news sources including BBC, CBS News, ABC News, Al Arabiya, the Independent, and the The Guardian so I am not sure where the vandalism is or the POV.Patapsco913 (talk) 21:33, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Statement removed. It is reported Mueller was a personal captive of Abu Sayyaf and was eventually married to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi who raped her repeatedly.

References

The problem is the instability of the article currently caused by vandalism (not by you) that has allowed such edits to remain. Add the content back in, but please don't add sources that aren't considered reliable by Wikipedia standards. The Guardian is one, Independent another, Al Arabiya possibly being another. Further, while we don't want to whitewash anything, please take care of how you word the circumstances surrounding this woman's "marriage" and her treatment. This is still a WP:BLP for up to two years following her death and needs to be edited with care in accordance to BLP policy.

Will do. Her parents are the ones who broke the story to ABC News. I am not sure why the Independent, the Guardian, and Al Arabiya would be considered unreliable.-- WV ● ✉ ✓ 21:46, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

The problem with this "number of credible news sources" is that all of them repeat the same primary claim from the FBI, without further verification. The statement needs to be qualified as an allegation by the FBI, not simply "it is reported". Amending it accordingly. 108.231.76.151 (talk) 00:22, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

I reverted back. Whatever the validity regarding points the above editor has made, it is suspicious and generally not a good idea to remove a large amount of sourcing for cosmetic purposes. There is definitely a similarity in the reporting and there is definitely a lot we don't know about what happened to Mueller and likely may never know but that does not equal faulty or superfluous reporting. Quis separabit? 00:35, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

It's also wise to keep any hint of sensationalism out of what is there. We are not tabloid news, of course. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 04:10, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Of course, my fellow Wikipedian @Winkelvi.
Question: Do you think "forced into concubinage" is more accurate than "forced into marriage"? What say you? Quis separabit? 15:48, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

There is one section in "controversy" which might do better up after the statements by Umm Sayef. I thought it better to bring to the talk page than to move it - as the story is "fast breaking." Ellin Beltz (talk) 16:24, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

ISIS or ISIL?

An editor has attempted to change each mention of ISIS to ISIL based on what the State Department calls the terrorist organization. I believe that what we need to go with is what the reliable sources say. Anyone know what the preponderance of acronym usage is? Let's discuss and get this taken care of; obviously this is something other editors/IP users are going to come along and want to change from time to time. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:08, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

ISIL should be the term used. This is the term used by the United States Government.

If you don't agree, Daesh is another possibility.

ISIS is an old term, similar to calling Diana, Princess of Wales as Lady Di. No names left!! abcd (talk) 18:05, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

There have been gigabytes of discussion about this naming issue at Talk:Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. They're doing all the hard work of following the sources. In order to both promote consistency and save energy, I suggest reusing their consensus, which is currently ISIL (but is subject to change based on evolving usage in the sources). Regards, Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 16:11, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Problem is the acronym isn't matching the written portion which just adds to the confusion. If you write ...Levant, then ISIL is correct, for ...Syria, ISIS would be the correct acronym. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.255.210.171 (talk) 02:29, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

A few votes have confirmed for style reasons we should follow the abbreviation that matches the spelled out name of the main ISIL article and most of its related articles on Wikipedia - ISIL. Legacypac (talk) 13:13, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

College date and sources

Mueller graduated from Northern Arizona University in December 2009.

Sources:

• http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/world/2015/02/06/kayla-mueller-aid-worker-profile-friends/23007661/ "Mueller, who graduated from NAU in December 2009 with a bachelor's in political science"

• http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/02/10/family-us-aid-worker-isis-captive-kayla-mueller-confirms-her-death/ "President Obama said in a statement earlier that Mueller, a 2009 graduate of Northern Arizona University…"

Mueller graduated from high school in 2007.

Source:

• http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/world/2015/02/06/kayla-mueller-aid-worker-profile-friends/23007661/ "2007: Graduated from Tri-City College Prep in Prescott."

12.180.133.18 (talk) 11:53, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

ABC reporting about MSF (Doctors without Borders)

This got recently added: On August 24, 2016, ABCNews reported that Doctors Without Borders had refused to help negotiate her release.

I'm not questioning it. ABC did indeed report that. But considering she's not a MSF employee or anyone having any relationship with MSF, it's weird. No? The people who might have negotiated her release might be her government or her family. But should this article list everyone who didn't help? That would really be a list of everyone on the planet minus 2 groups. I'm just not sure this is a encyclopedia issue, more of head-line grabbing weak journalism. What do people think? I wanted to ask before making an edit.

213.175.177.100 (talk) 07:15, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

It does seem a little weird, but there is slightly more context than that, as I've edited the article to reflect. Basically, they hired a Syrian man to work as a contractor for the day. They had no idea he had an American girlfriend who was planning to tag along with him from Turkey - had they known they would not have endorsed that at all. They got pulled out of an MSF car after leaving the hospital. I don't blame MSF for washing their hands of this, but there was this connection.Sylvain1972 (talk) 17:07, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

This issue is far from over. It's going to be on 20/20 Fri Aug 26. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.112.128.15 (talk) 19:38, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Kayla Mueller raped and tortured before her death

The main article says little about her rape, torture, and murder. A separate section describing her abuse and murder under DAESH might be useful, to match the gravity of these crimes.

• http://abcnews.go.com/International/kayla-mueller-captivity-courage-selflessness-defended-christian-faith/story?id=41626763
• http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/isis-kayla-mueller-had-fingernails-ripped-out-before-being-raped-by-islamic-state-leader-1519143
• http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3198571/Islamic-State-ruler-kept-26-year-old-American-air-worker-personal-sex-slave-killed-February.html
• http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34205911

• http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/hostage-tortured-raped-isis-leader-8704793

"The American aid worker forced to marry ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi had her finger nails ripped out as she was constantly raped before her death.

A teenage sex slave of the terrorist warlord told how she saw US hostage Kayla Mueller systematically tortured while held captive by his blood thirsty henchmen."

Thepigdog (talk) 04:50, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

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Death section old and no longer correct at all

Right now in the "Death" section and "government" section there are many entire graphs devoted to here death, all of which center on airstrike claim, with only debate being if it was US or Jordanian airstrike. According to WaPost, NYTimes, WSJ, Guardian, DTelegraph, ABC, BBC, Foxnews and CNN the most current and accurate information is this young woman was directly murdered by her captors, based on multiple statements by other captives and captured ISil members.

the airstrike claim by ISIL should be downgraded in text to a single sentence noting this was a claim wiht no support, and more recent information indicating direct murder by her captors should be the main focus when it comes to her death.N34B2 (talk) 13:40, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Marriage

Why was Al-Baghdadi not Kayla Mueller's husband? While it is true that she was forced to marry the leader of an international terrorist organization, something that undoubtedly made her kidnapping particularly horrible, anyway he was her husband. Don't you think?--Gustavo Parker (talk) 02:39, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Cause of death in infobox

The cause of death in the infobox states "Murdered by ISIS after being tortured for 500 days", but the article text states that her cause of death is unknown, with various possibilities. How do we resolve this discrepancy? Enwebb (talk) 14:23, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Kayla Muellers letter from November 2, 2014

From German newspaper "Die Welt" https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article137326834/Sie-liess-sich-von-den-Dschihadisten-nicht-brechen.html: Der Brief, in dem Kayla Mueller versicherte, sie sei „ungebrochen“ und trage noch „viel Kampfkraft“ in sich, erreichte die Eltern im vergangenen Herbst über Mitgefangene, die freigekommen waren. Er ist datiert auf den 2. November 2014 und wurde erst jetzt öffentlich bekannt. „Ich weiß gar nicht, was ich euch sagen soll“, schrieb Kayla darin. „Bitte wisst, dass ich an einem sicheren Ort bin, völlig unverletzt und gesund (ich habe sogar zugenommen); ich wurde mit größtem Respekt + Freundlichkeit behandelt.“

There she wrote that she was treated with utmost respect and friendliness. Shouldn't we mention her letter? In the German Wikipedia it is mentioned indeed. --2003:F5:CF08:565C:796C:2DD6:10CF:92CE (talk) 22:46, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Date of death

The question of Kayla’s date of death has been an uncertain one. I think that for the sake of being factual and trying to be accurate, I think that we should shift from the purported February 6, 2015 to c. 2015. Dancingtudorqueen (talk) 13:34, 11 July 2022 (UTC)