Talk:Kathy Lynch/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Aircorn (talk · contribs) 07:26, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My usual procedure when reviewing an article is to note below any issues I see that fail the GA criteria. These will need to be fixed or I will need to be convinced that they are fine as is before I will pass the article. I also usually leave comments on what I think can be improved. Some of these are beyond the GA criteria, so the article may still pass if they are not all fixed. I welcome any discussion about any comments I make here. Also I might make (what I consider mostly cosmetic or uncontroversial) changes while I am reading the article. If you think I have changed things inappropriately please just revert with an explanation. AIRcorn (talk) 07:37, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for picking this up. I should probably point out that I've tried everything possible to get images of her. Found a recent one on Flickr but the photographer hasn't released it (or more precisely, she hasn't got back to me). I've been in touch with Robin Judkins and the Kennett Bros - no replies. I'm not sure what else I can do. Schwede 66 08:08, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Schwede. I am not worried about the images. While it is great to have them they are not necessary and it is better not to have any rather than have non-compliant ones. So far I have read through the lead and skimmed the rest. To be honest I am finding the prose tough going. In the lead most of the sentences are awkwardly put together, some to the point that I have to read them a few times to figure out what you are trying to say. To be honest I nearly failed it there (and am still leaning that way), but a quick read through the rest shows some improvement. There are still the odd sentences that look troublesome, but the bulk of the issues may be confined to the lead. I can wait for you or someone else to copyedit it before continuing with the review, or if you want I am willing to do the copyedit for you (I have read through most of it already so am reasonably familiar with the content). If I do that I will fail the review as I would not feel comfortable passing this if I was contributing to that degree, so it will have to be renominated. AIRcorn (talk) 09:15, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I hadn't immediately added this page to my watchlist. Was wondering how this is going, had a look, and you are waiting for an answer from me... Regarding a copyedit, I'm not sure that I would be able to improve this myself by a significant degree, given that English isn't my first language. I shall post a message at WPNZ as there are heaps of editors around who enjoy working on sports articles. That would be my preference over you editing it yourself and then not being able to continue the review. Good news on the photo front; one of the Kennett Brothers has just been in touch with an offer to help out. Schwede 66 02:34, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. I was going to give you a ping if you hadn't commented soon. Just started another GAR while I was waiting, but will get back to this one hopefully before the weekend. AIRcorn (talk) 00:08, 19 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from lead only

Should multi sportswoman and muli sportbe hyphenated. From a visual standpoint I think it should and a quick google search [1][2] seems to show it hyphenated much more often than not.
White Water Downriver and Slalom Championships what events are these? Canoeing, skiing, rafting?
At the same time, she was also a successful triathlete Is this just referring to 1987 and 1988?
She bought her first mountain bike aged 31 a 31 year old mountain bike.
Whats a domestique
What does dropped Harris from the wheel and what do you mean by blew up
Hospitalised with internal bleeding not far out from the race, she did not fulfill her potential and came tenth. Not far out is very vague. Was it just before or a couple of weeks. Also the previous sentence says she came eighth so finishing tenth does not seem that far outside her potential.
Back in her home country later in 1990, she became a household name by winning a 22-day multi sport race the length of the country that had prime time TV coverage every night. I am finding this an awkward read. It appears quite jumbled.

All the above have been dealt with. The source isn't any more specific about the timing of the hospitalisation and the subsequent world championship, and I can't find dates for the 1990 NORBA race in Mammoth, California. Schwede 66 04:01, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

She tried to prove the point that her omission was a mistake by trying to do well at that year's Tour de France Féminin and demonstrated that by coming sixth. Same with this one and most of the other sentences following this.
You like big paragraphs.

Aircorn, I've placed copyedit requests in two places but not much help is forthcoming, with one exception (thanks, Akld guy). Hence, I've given this my best shot. Is this better? And yes, I like my paragraphs longer than what most other editors may produce but I'm open to specific suggestions for change. Schwede 66 04:47, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Schwede66: My criticisms are that:

there is too much minute detail in the Lead. For example, that she was chosen as domestique for Madonna Harris, but sprinted away to Harris' annoyance. I think all that needs to be said in the Lead is that she was chosen as domestique for Harris and they finished 4th and 8th respectively. The other details are already in the main body

Reply by Schwede66: That situation may have been a career-defining moment, as her biographers reckon that it could have been the reason for her not being picked for the 1992 Olympic road cycling team despite her strong form. Reading it again, I noticed that the 1992 background was missing from the body; have fixed that. Does that context now show why it's in the lead, at that level of detail? And yes, I appreciate that a reader would need to have some basic understanding of road cycling to see why it mentions her having the role of domestique.

same with the hospitalization/internal bleeding - all that needs to be said is that she finished 10th, with the other details in the main body

Reply by Schwede66: I'm not sure about that. If you take the context away, it's just another race result. Coming 10th in a world championship race after having just been in hospital is what makes this interesting, I would suggest.

a large wall of text in the main body that needs to be broken up into sections

Reply by Schwede66: Ok, I'll look into that.

there are instances of unreferenced appraisals:
- distinguished career - Lead
- talented multi-sportswoman - Lead
- respectable eighth place - Lead
- a very respectable sixth - main body. May be in the reference but I have no access to it

Reply by Schwede66: I'll look into that.

there is no justification for the following: there are always things that can go wrong during such a long event, and it promptly happened - it reads like the sports page of a newspaper

Reply by Schwede66: That's reworded from the source.

some of the 1996 Olympics section consists of statements that appear to be unreferenced personal impressions
- underwhelmed by the support
- team jersey was unsuitable for the heat and humidity
- Life in the village was unpleasant
- it made for a more pleasant stay and sufficient sleep
- In the third lap, the heat became unbearable

The above may be in the reference

Reply by Schwede66: Yes, indeed it is.

Some of the above reads like it has been written by someone very close to the subject of the article, or is lifted from an interview she may have given. I would make some radical changes, but don't want to appear like I'm retaliating against Schwede66 for disagreements we've had elsewhere. Akld guy (talk) 05:47, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Reply by Schwede66: The whole book is written by the Simon and Jonathan Kennett, with this bio attributed to Simon. That's what they do for a living; they've written heaps of books about cycling, including bios about a large number of New Zealand cyclists. They were behind the Cycling New Zealand magazine that was published for many years, and they invented the Karapoti Classic. And they were racing themselves (MTB), getting high placings in early national championships. So yes, you could say that they would be closely connected to some of the people that they've written bios about, as they were for years operating in the same sphere. Schwede 66 06:42, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The unreferenced personal impressions in 1996 Olympics should have a reference for each impression, rather than a single reference at the end of the section. Because they are not individually referenced, they look like Wikipedia is speaking in its own voice when saying, for example, "Life in the village was unpleasant..." Akld guy (talk) 19:58, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes - I was pretty close to the action. Rode, raced and shared accomodation with Kathy a fair bit between 1989 and 1997. Also, I was on the National MTB team with her at the World Champs in 1990 and 1991. A lot of the statements that sound personal are close to direct quotes from Kathy (from interviews while writing the biography, and previous articles). Simon Kennett, 4 May 2017

Second look

I will go through the body and make comments as I go. You don't need to make all the changes I suggest, but if you disagree with something I say just leave a note under it why. We can then discuss it if needed. I am always willing to be convinced something is fine as it is. AIRcorn (talk) 09:00, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

Early life is a bit short on some details. Who were her parents? Does she have siblings?

Reply by Schwede: I agree. It's rather short of detail in Muddy Olympians, unfortunately. Her father gets one mention: "Her father once said of her stocky build, 'She'd hve been a rugby prop, if she'd been a boy.'" That's it; no mention of any other family members.

This is a little concerning. My reading of the article made me think she must be one of New Zealands greatest athletes. I would be very surprised if more information on her early life did not exist. Family and growing up are pretty essential aspects of someones biography, which also makes me question the reliability of your main source. There is very little about her post race career either. Does she have children? AIRcorn (talk) 01:28, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've written to the bio author to see whether he can help.

Thank you for writing 'The Muddy Olympians'; it's a great read. On page 13, the opening to Kathy Lynch's bio is the very best beginning of a bio that I've ever come across. Well done.
I've used the book as the main source for a Wikipedia article for Kathy Lynch: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Kathy_Lynch It's turned out quite alright (I think), but I have a couple of problems:
1) I haven't got any photos, but I've been in touch with Paul and he's put me in touch with Dave Mitchell and Michael Jaques. I've yet to hear back from them, but no hurry.
2) The Wikipedia bio is a bit thin on Lynch's early life. I can understand why MTB buffs may not be interested in that kind of detail, and why it's thus not included in your book.
I wonder, though, whether you have access to material that deals with early life aspects? Main life events, where the media were most interested in her, would have been the 1990 Xerox Challenge and the 1996 Olympics. That's too old for online newspapers, though (the NZ Herald goes back to 2000, and that's the oldest contemporary newspaper that I'm aware of). Do you have anything in your archive? Any newspaper clippings perhaps that you compiled before writing the book?
The reason why all of this is a problem is that I've put the article up for a quality review. The discussion about the review process is here: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Talk:Kathy_Lynch/GA1 You'd be most welcome to chip in; you don't even need an account to comment. Just say who you are.
I'd greatly appreciate if you could help in some way. And if Lynch has always been very private about these things, that in itself would be useful to know. There are a few specific questions on the page (which year did she meet Pete Braggins; when did they move to Mot and why, any siblings?) and if you could answer any of these, that would be splendid.

I'll let you know when I hear back. Schwede 66 07:44, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW I did a few google and archive searches and found nothing much to help either. It is probably simply a case of systemic bias. You have gone above and beyond what is really required and to be honest I am not sure how much we can do with personal communications in an article. AIRcorn (talk) 08:13, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What I'm really hoping for is newspaper clippings. A whole box full! Schwede 66 08:17, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Kathy is now a fairly private person. She doesn't consider her early family life (or post-sporting career life) to be particularly interesting and has never been that keen to talk about it. Out of respect to her, I didn't probe into her private life much. We talked about sport, a lot. Simon Kennett, 4 May 2017.

I've had a reply (by email) from Simon Kennett:

Thanks for the compliment. I'm pretty happy with the opening, too.
I'd happily have done a whole book about Kathy, but she didn't want that. Reckoned she wasn't interesting enough. Ha!.
I'll have a read of the wiki when I get a chance. The intro looks good.
You can see from the book that we sourced photos from all over the show, and had to pay for many. You're onto the right sources for free copies.
Apart from interviews, most of my sources were old Adventure, NZ Cycling and Multisport mags. Didn't get very much from the newspapers (aside from Karapoti Classic clippings which we have a bit of a collection of). Might be worth your while doing a trip to one of the big libraries and doing a search on Xerox challenge in the Newspaper section (or just look into a couple of the main papers...sports sections at the time of the event would have covered it frequently.
The only source I had regarding her early life was Kathy, and she didn't have much to say about it. Sounds like it was pretty normal Kiwi outdoors stuff.
She has a brother.
I'll have a look at the review discussion in the weekend.

I shall follow Simon's suggestion and hit the Christchurch library that has copies of The Press on microfilm. I'll look at the month that covers the Xerox Challenge. Schwede 66 22:47, 27 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Here's an update on my library venture. Last Sunday, I got rather wet getting to the library only to find out they are closed on Sundays. Today, I worked my way through The Press from 1 to 16 November 1990. The Xerox Challenge got reported on from day three of the race every single day. Lynch and Gurney are discussed in every report, but nothing so far that is of biographical value. I shall see whether I've got time for the remaining six days of racing next Saturday. By now I've got enough material to write an article for the Xerox Challenge at least. Schwede 66 08:58, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Representing New Zealand at netball probably deserves more than one vague sentence.

Reply by Schwede: It's not mentioned in the book; the only place where this is mentioned is the New Zealand Geographic reporting on the 1990 Xerox Challenge.

Did she really? I never heard her mention netball. It's hard to imagine her being fond of that sort of sport. Simon Kennett.

Meeting her partner should probably have a year.

Reply by Schwede: The book doesn't give any details here.

Any reason for the Motueka move?

Reply by Schwede: The book only says that it happened, but not why or when exactly (it says "1980s").

Motueka has a very good climate and is a great base for outdoor adventure sports. Simon Kennett, 4 May 2017

Did people really laugh at her for wearing coloured socks? Can't read the source so will take your word for it. Seems a bit of a dickish thing to do though.

Reply by Schwede: Here's the passage from the book: "She was encouraged by fellow Motueka resident (and Junior New Zealand Road Champion) Karen Holliday to try road cycling. At that time road cycling was a winter sport, and the season's skiing was sub-par, so she agreed. When she turned up to her first race wearing pink socks, tennis shoes and a t-shirt, she was laughed at. Only white socks were to be worn at cycle races. At the next race, Holliday and Lynch said 'up yours' by wearing matching pairs of green socks."

Road cycling was a very conservative sport back then. Simon Kennett, 4 May 2017.

The section is titled early life, but it goes up to when she was in her early 30s. Maybe early for some I suppose.

Reply by Schwede: I've restructured it somewhat and moved the cycling bit to the next paragraph. I guess that further demonstrates how light the 'early life' section is, but I suppose we can't make things up...

Would you consider some more paragraphs. There is at least one natural split between meeting her partner and moving to Motueka and the Canoe wins. Personally I find overly long paragraphs a bit exhausting to read as it doesn't give you much space to pause. It is also a bit strange reading a paragraph that covers a few different themes.

Reply by Schwede: Sure would. But with the above moving of some material, would you still think that it would be an improvement? Schwede 66 20:18, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Road and mountain bike racing

She entered her first mountain bike race in February 1989 The previous section says she found mountain biking dumb. Now she is back riding. It needs some reason or at least an acknowledgement of her previous appraisal.

As a multi-sporter you would often need to do a discipline or two that you didn't like, but often that would just be due to it being unfamiliar. As you mastered that sport you would often grow to like it. Simon Kennett

after the winner of the previous round what does this mean. Can't we just say that she came second?
to the previous year's winner coming in second same with this. I am guessing you are saying that the same women won the two previous legs and came second in this one.
Are we really short on mountain biking article. I feel New Zealand championship should have a link, but couldn't find one. Same with a few others.
one of the toughest climbs for a road cyclists in the country this needs a citation

You could also cite 'Classic New Zealand Road Rides' which compares all the great road climbs in NZ. Simon Kennett

In the finishing chute Is this the race for the finishing line?
she had no option but to take the medication surely an option was to pull out of the race.

Pulling out would not be an option for Kathy Lynch. Simon Kennett.

set the tone by coming fourth I would have thought the first place getter was setting the tone
Removed a few weaselly words like a respectable and only. Who is deciding that is respectable? If it is important it needs to be attributed to someone. Otherwise we can let the reader decide for themselves.
She made her point that her omission from the 1992 Olympic team was a mistake. If one of the reasons they didn't select her was because they didn't consider her a team player then this is a bit strong. Maybe attribute it to the Kennets (I assume they are the ones saying it).

I suspect the the selection panel didn't like Kathy's style. She swore a lot and called things as she saw them. A bit on the wild side. Simon Kennett.

For over the next hour are you meaning "For over an hour" or "For the next hour"? Over the next doesn't make much sense.
Quite a few sentences started with "But". I removed them when I saw them
Lynch started the cross country race with fury Is this the best way to describe this?
As the three Olympic qualifiers were overseas already What three Olympic qualifiers?
That last paragraph is massive
One event that she could not miss, though, was the Wellington mountain bike race that was part of the UCI World Cup in April 1997 Why?
But for the World Cup race Is this the Wellington one mentioned earlier?

I've dealt with all of those; I hope it's to your satisfaction. I've tried to wikilink everything that is relevant and yes, NZ cycling isn't well represented on Wikipedia. Don't hesitate to make further suggestions if things can be improved beyond what I've done. Schwede 66 09:37, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: The 1997 Mt Victoria World Cup wasn't quite the first UCI mountain bike event in NZ. We ran an Oceania Champs and a Cat E race as practice events. But it was the first MTB World Cup race in NZ, so was the first time we have a truly international field of world class MTB racers here. Simon Kennett, 4 may 2017. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.73.59.127 (talk) 11:51, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The comment about her first MTB being a 'piece if shit' came from Kathy, not me. I actually rode for the Milazo brand in 1988/89 and they were not great bikes. The Kathy had was pretty close to bottom of the line. That will have contributed to her not being all that impressed with MTBing when she first tried it. Simon Kennett

Thanks heaps, Simon, for commenting here. That's much appreciated and very helpful. Schwede 66 19:23, 4 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Akld guys comments

I read through Akld guys comments just now (i.e. after making my own second reading ones abnove) and am glad to see we picked up on a few of the same things. I am probably not as harsh on some of that wording, but there was a bit too much in the way of WP:weasel words for my liking. I actually removed some while editing it during my review. I am guessing that much of this is taken from the way the biographers have written about Lynch. This is fine for a biographer, but not really the appropriate tone for an Encyclopaedia. It is relatively easy to fix these up though. she is an interesting person and deserves a decent article so hopefully we can push this over the line. AIRcorn (talk) 10:10, 24 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think I've dealt with all the comments that have been brought up. Schwede 66 18:51, 26 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Lead seems very detailed

I've just made some minor edits to grammar. I do think that the lead is overly long and detailed and could be cut down to two paragraphs which summarise her main achievements and why she is so notable. MurielMary (talk) 09:00, 5 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

MurielMary Thanks, my friend, for your useful edits. As for the lead, this is after all aiming to be a GA, and I don't think that it's got too much detail. Schwede 66 09:03, 6 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Finishing up

Schwede66 I am about ready to wrap this up. I am satisfied that we have exhausted the biographical information on Kathy and (your newspaper search not withstanding) I am willing to give this a pass at criteria 3b. I am not concerned about the detail in the lead and most other issues have been addressed. The only sticking point for me now is the netball sentence. I think we have to either trust the source NZ geographic and leave it in or not trust them and pull it. The current wording is not encyclopaedic. I would support a note attached to it in the references saying that only one source supports this and no others confirming it have been found. Either option would not effect the GA status (i.e I think the geograhpical is reliable enough to trust, but the netball aspect is obviously not a big enough deal that it will fail the broad criteria if it is absent). I won't pass it in its current form though. @Akld guy and MurielMary: in case you have anything to add (although I will make the final decision on passing or failing). AIRcorn (talk) 08:33, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with changing the sentence about netball. There's no record of her in the Taranaki netball records or the Silver Ferns, so it was probably a youth side she played for. Suggest "In her youth, Lynch played netball and represented New Zealand" or similar, with a note pointing out it's only found in one source. MurielMary (talk) 08:57, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Aircorn, for voicing your concerns about the netball sentence. I wasn't happy with the new wording either. I reckon a footnote is a good way to deal with it. Have just done this and I see that MurielMary has also commented on it now - thanks! Is it ok the way it is? Happy to change it further, or for others to have a go. Schwede 66 09:03, 7 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

All good. Going to pass this. AIRcorn (talk) 07:52, 9 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]