Talk:Kashrut/Archive 1

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Following Kashrut in part

RK: I guess there are quite a few Jews who follow kashrut, but only in part. (E.g. they might avoid obvious things like eating pork, but ignore most of the other dietary rules.) I think it would useful if the article mentioned that. Also, some Jews don't follow kashrut without clearing fitting into categories like Reform or Reconstructionist (e.g., according to a newspaper article I recently read, a lot of recent immigrants from the former Soviet Union to Israel -- I doubt most of them consciously identify as Reform or anything like that.) -- SJK

Capon isn't a species

Capon isn't a species of bird; it's a neutered bird. Should it be listed here? -phma

Bans and anti-Semitism

The below text has been removed for the mean time for being a little too broad in its accusations:

The kosher method of slaughtering animals has been criticized as being cruel; it has been forbidden in a number of European countries. These campaigns are often accompanied by anti-Semitic remarks from government members of the nations, as well as anti-Semitic remarks from members of the non-governmental organizations which have taken the intiative in trying to ban kosher food. Jewish groups hold that these campaigns are based on Anti-Semitism, and have no valid basis in animal rights. This has been evidenced by the fact that many opponents of kosher meat have publicly stated that "the Jews" should leave the country if they don't like the restrictions being put on them.

Which European countries? What remarks? What is often? How is this different from the opposition to islamic slaughtering? Why does the slaughtering of animals in a kosher way have no basis in animal rights, when many animal rights activist oppose all methods of slaughtering of animals? Why is there even a need for a paragraph, when this could possibly be dealt with in a single sentence? Let's make it a little more precise before putting it back -Scipius

Although I want this material restored, I am refraining from doing so because you have raised some excellent questions that must answered. I am compiling a list of European nations which have banned kosher slaughter, as well as a brief list of remarks that many Jews find anti-Semitic. I believe that the nations are Norway, Denmark, and Sweden. The nation of Holland has banned some types of kosher slaughter, but I believe is being accomodating and is working with the Jewish community to make sure that the methods used there are fully in accord with the nation's laws on this subject. As for the idea that some groups are against the slaughtering of all animals, we know that this is false. All the extant laws banning slaughter only ban Jewish, and sometimes Islamic, methods of slaughter. None of these nations ban the types of slaughter practiced by Christians or secular Jews, Muslims, etc. It is clear that only religious Jews (and sometimes Muslims) are the target. None of the European nations has made any attempt to ban all animal slaughter.

A newspaper article notes http://jewishworldreview.com/0702/euro_kosher.html
Abraham Foxman, the Anti-Defamation League's national director, who is currently touring Europe to assess the wave of anti-Semitism, said the bans are the result of activism between animal rights extremists "aided and abetted" by anti-Semitic politicians. "Sometimes anti-Semites will use this as a vehicle to try to isolate the Jewish community by reaching out to those who are so preoccupied with [animal rights]," said Foxman in an interview from Rome. "The key is whether or not there is a history in that country ? what other issues of animal rights have they engaged in to prohibit cruelty? When they begin and end with kosher slaughter, that's when I become suspect."

What you need to do is unequivocally prove that the reason those European countries "banned" kosher slaughtering had to do with anti-Semitism, rather than being based in animal rights concerns. Doubtless there are anti-Semites that would advocate such a ban and disguise it as caring for animals, but it is outright preposterous to suggest without proof that the entire government decided on a ban based primarily on this sentiment, rather than any other (and especially the obvious animal rights one).

You're also not being fair towards animal rights activists. I'm not one of them, but I do know many oppose all slaughter of animals (check the Wikipedia link). It has nothing to do with the method used per se, but rather with the simple killing for consumption motive. I believe this is more an issue of freedom of religion versus animal rights, rather than a case of anti-Semitism. You seem to downplay the fact that islamic butchers should be facing the same restrictions, how is the islamic situation in the countries you accuse? Just what practises are banned? -Scipius

RK, to add to Scipius' point, some theorists of the liberal state (in this case, meaning people who believe rights to belong to individuals and not groups), such "humane slaughter" laws are not discriminatory because Jews and Muslims do not have to eat meat; they choose to. Scipius, in support of RK, the deleted text does not claim that such laws are intrinsically anti-semitic, only that they are often accompanied by anti-semitic rhetoric. Would you rather the claim were narrowed to "sometimes?" In any event, I agree that the claim is stronger when specific examples are provided. But you are not being fair to RK, or you did not read the text -- it did not by any means claim or suggest that "that the reason those European countries "banned" kosher slaughtering had to do with anti-Semitism," there for I see no need for RK to "prove" this claim. Slrubenstein

I disagree, the original text most certainly tried to suggest that people who seek restrictions on kosher meat do this for primarily anti-Semitic reasons, which is a claim that needs to be firmly corroborated. Some 70% of the text above is about anti-Semitism. Look at the last sentence of the text: it states that "many opponents of kosher meat have publicly stated that "the Jews" should leave the country if they don't like the restrictions being put on them". This should be easily demonstrable, and it should be evident from government spokespersons, since "these campaigns are often accompanied by anti-Semitic remarks from government members of the nations". Let's have them, and demonstrate that this is the clear basis for the ban. Otherwise this is simply opinion and hardly a NPOV one. RK is simply not fairly representing the animal rights view, down to the point of completely negating their argument. He doesn't necessarily have to, since this article isn't about animal rights, but he does when he makes such accusations.

Here's a replacement text I propose: The kosher method of slaughtering animals has been criticized by as being cruel towards the animal and restrictions are in place in some countries primarily in the interest of animal rights, as is the case for the related islamic slaughtering method. Some Jewish (and Muslim) groups however feel this may be in part fueled by discriminatory sentiments, rather than concern for the animal, and protest the restrictions on this basis. Other countries have made special exemptions for ritual slaughtering techniques such as Kashrut. -Scipius

The issue is not always that Kashrut is outlawed; England has "humane slaughter" rules, from which Jews and Muslims are exempt -- and some have questioned the fairness of giving certain groups such exemptions. In other countries a different sort of compromise wa sreached: Peter Singer, in his book Animal Liberation(p. 154), describes how Rabbis in Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland, agreed to stun animals before slaughtering them. By the way, I am not entirely convinced that slaughterhouses that follow "humane slaughtering" rules are really that humane. It makes me wonder how much of this issue may be a red herring. Slrubenstein

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Scipius writes "You're also not being fair towards animal rights activists. I'm not one of them, but I do know many oppose all slaughter of animals (check the Wikipedia link). It has nothing to do with the method used per se, but rather with the simple killing for consumption motive."

You are confused. This is not at all what I am talking about. I am well aware that some animal rights groups are trying to ban the slaughter of animals of food. So what? This has nothign to do with the topic I dicussed, namely the attempts of European groups and governments to only ban Jewish butchers, but to allow Christian butchers. The vast majority of animals slaughtered for food is done by gentiles, for gentiles, and this is not banned. It is only the Jews who are forbidden from procuring meat. Your rebuttal is against a claim I never made. Of course it is not anti-Semitic for a nation to ban all slaughter. But such an event has not occured. RK

I'm hardly the one who's confused. Did you not write: "As for the idea that some groups are against the slaughtering of all animals, we know that this is false"? The entire paragraph clearly tried to suggest that the restrictions on kosher meat had everything to do with anti-Semitism, without fairly demonstrating why this would be the case. Since you appear to be in the know on this issue, why won't you tell us how the islamic slaughtering method is treated, which should be facing the same restrictions? -Scipius

Scipus writes "This should be easily demonstrable, and it should be evident from government spokespersons, since "these campaigns are often accompanied by anti-Semitic remarks from government members of the nations". Let's have them, and demonstrate that this is the clear basis for the ban. Otherwise this is simply opinion and hardly a NPOV one."

You misunderstand. I am not saying that everyone must agree with the fact that these actions are anti-Semitic. Without firm proof, such a claim would be a violation of NPOV. Rather, I am saying that Jewish groups feel that these actions are likely based in some anti-Semitic feelings. And that description of how many Jews feel is absolutely correct, and thus it is NPOV. Further, none of your responses directly dealt with any of my comments. Instead, you are simpyl claiming that I am attacking animal rights in general, which is utterly false. (I never even imagined that this had anything to do with the subject.) My statements were about the fact that certain European nations were discriminating against Jews and Jews alone, irregardless of the mechanics of how animal actually were killed, and this singling out of Jews is hard to explain except by noting the vast amount of anti-Semitism that permeates Europe. (Note that the number of anti-Semitic incidents in Europe in the last few years is even greater than in the early 1930s, when the Nazi movement was building.) RK

"And that description of how many Jews feel is absolutely correct, and thus it is NPOV". Just because "many" Jews feel that it is true, doesn't mean that it is in fact true, it is just one point of view. This is not an exclusively Jewish encyclopedia and therefore all points of view should be given fair and equal treatment. That was my problem with the text as it was, it seemed to focus solely on trying to claim opponents of the kosher slaughtering method were doing this purely out of anti-Semitism, which, if you can't prove it, is unfair when you don't allow for the other side's arguments. Both sides' arguments should be equal to us, so that we have a neutral point of view.

Obviously animal rights are concerned in this issue, don't try to claim you never had any idea it had, if that's what you meant. It said right in the first line of the removed text that is was being criticised as being cruel. As for the "fact" that this ban is only on Kashrut, can you verify then that islamic slaughtering techniques are not banned in those same countries? That would after all be a good indication that it may indeed be influenced by anti-Semitism. -Scipius

The anti-semitic actions in Europe come from the right-wing fringe, not from the left-wing governments, which fight those right-wing elements but still enact humane-butchering rules because they are close to the animal-rights movement. Furthermore you claim that these rules discriminate against Jews and Jews alone, which is incorrect: they discriminate against anybody who desires to use the proscribed butchering rules, and I believe this also includes some Arabs. The "mechanics of how the animals actually are killed" is precisely what matters, nothing else. AxelBoldt

Maybe. My concern is that these countries do not only bad one specific mechanic; they have flat out banned all forms of kosher slaughter. All attempts at compromise have failed. They won't even allow any discussion, which is a bad sign. Since they refuse to even discuss the issue (to find a way that Jews can carry out their actions in accord with the new animal-rights laws of these nations), many Jews are reluctantly saying that this probably has something to do with anti-Semitism. They feel that they are left with few alternatives. RK

I like the new text, though the untrue statement about the Netherlands had to go (read the article referenced above). I've further edited the text a little more for nuances. Shall we agree this can stay? -Scipius

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Scipus writes "Just because "many" Jews feel that it is true, doesn't mean that it is in fact true, it is just one point of view. This is not an exclusively Jewish encyclopedia and therefore all points of view should be given fair and equal treatment.

You are arguing against a point that I am not making. I agree with what you just said. I am unsure of why we are having this disagreement, over a point that I agree with you on. Let me try and straighten things out. You hold that, given the current information, it would a violation of NPOV to state that these laws are definately caused primarilly by anti-Semitism. And for the moment, I agree with you. However, it is in accord with NPOV to write that Jewish groups really do believe that these laws are to some large or small extent, anti-Semitic. This isn't saying that the Jewish POV is an indisputable fact it is pointing out that this is what some of these groups believe. You write that "it is unfair when you don't allow for the other side's arguments. Both sides' arguments should be equal to us, so that we have a neutral point of view." I just want you to know that I agree with you on this.

Well, I'm glad to see we can agree on the concept of NPOV, but the devil is as always in the details...;) The problem is how you state the kosher position, it is far too accusational, giving no room for the other side's argument. -Scipius

Scipus writes "Obviously animal rights are concerned in this issue, don't try to claim you never had any idea it had, if that's what you meant."

Please don't be angry, you seem to misunderstand my claim. I agree that there are animal rights people who are trying to ban all animal slaughter. However, this is not what the article mentioned. The article mentioned the actual events in which Jews and Jews alone were prevented from slaughtering animals, while gentiles and usually Muslims were allowed to do so. You still seem to be arguing against a point that I was not making. RK

No, you still have given no evidence that every country that has banned kosher meat (and only kosher meat, i.e. not halal meat) did so motivated primarily by anti-semitism. In fact, I would like to see where Jews were forbidden from slaughtering, whereas Muslims were not, since the two methods are AFAIK related. Remember, this is not about Christianity versus Judaism or Islam, but about religious, ritualistic slaughter versus industrial of conventional slaughter. -Scipius

Scipus writes "As for the "fact" that this ban is only on Kashrut, can you verify then that islamic slaughtering techniques are not banned in those same countries? That would after all be a good indication that it may indeed be influenced by anti-Semitism."

Well, I can't prove a negative. I am not aware of any movement in European nations to ban all Islamic slaughtering. The only European-wide movement I know of is aimed at Jewish slaughtering. There may well indeed be a few places where Islamic forms of slaughtering are also being banned. RK

And there we have the crux of the matter. There most certainly is a movement against all ritualistic slaughter. Whenever I hear of it, it is usually in relation to Islamic slaughter, rather than Jewish, since the latter is far less common. This is why I believe it is very important to determine whether or not there is any difference in how the two are treated. How about a list of what restrictions exist on ritual slaughter in the world?

I have edited the article further to nuance things further and make it less accusational. You are being far too broad in your choice of words and this gives the impression you're on some anti-European crusade. I've mostly followed the info from the excellent Swiss article. -Scipius

Kitniot link broken

The second kitniot link doesn't work. Where's it supposed to point? -phma