Talk:Karhade Brahmin

Indo-Scythian Origins

Please provide scholarly references for the Indo-Scythian origin theory. Otherwise it shall be marked as speculative and eventually removed. The theory is neither proven nor mainstream. Indigenous origin, which is the mainstream theory, offers a more parsimonious explanation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.62.40.77 (talk) 01:50, 12 December 2009 (UTC) I completely agree that unless well researched references are provided, the theory of Indo-Scythian origin of Karhades should be dismissed as being speculative. The etymology is also a stretch. (I am writing this here as an answer to the paragraph above because I do not know where else to write it. There is evidence of the Indo Scynthian origins of the Karhades. I come from the Jatar family, Karhade Brahmins. My father did a DNA test from familytreedna.com and this is a reliable company. His YDNA haplogroup was found to be R-M512. Origin of this haplogroup is Central Asia, the Indian Subcontinent, Eastern and Northern Europe. Our report from family tree dna tells us that the Jatars are of Indo Synthian origin. I am not sure whether this applies to all Karhades, but it certainly applies 100% to the Jatars who are Karhades.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nitajk (talk • contribs) 06:27, 31 May 2017 (UTC) The theory I have always known is that during the middle ages there was a severe drought in the northeastern part of Maharashtra called Varhaad. Several Deshastha Brahmin families of that area left their villages and sought better living in the southwest. They were not readily accepted in southwest Maharashtra, and they ended up on the westerly slopes of the Sahyadri range,an area which was still not densely populated. They settled there and many ventured further south into the Konkan including a large settlement in Goa and surrounding areas. Karha is the river with its origins in the western Sahyadri range, and it is likely these people were called Karhade from that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.243.29.182 (talk) 18:50, 30 January 2010 (UTC) There was some baseless information about the origin of Karhade Brahmins. It was removed due to being too far fetched without proper citations. I am surprised that guys above had seen it more than a year back but refrained from removing it. Sachin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.184.12.153 (talk) 12:17, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Deshastha origins can be easily debated. Karhades have been known to be tall and strong compared to Deshsthas and thus were probably warrior Brahmins during Peshwai (1700s). People with Karhade Brahmin surnames in Varhaad region in Maharashtra migrated during Peshwai (1700s) for political and social administration. Also, because of the drive to eliminate control of Mughals all the way up to Varanasi and Kashi, the ancient holy places of Hindus, during the 18th century. The physical characteristics, some religious practices, dietary habits as well as the linguistic vocabulary of Karhades has some matching with Muslims and Urdu. So, there is a possibility that there has been some inter-mixing with people of Muslim origin even outside of India, perhaps more than a thousand years ago. Also, Karhades tend to follow a very liberal form of Hinduism, in fact, they are more spiritual, non-theistic, unorthodox and forward-looking compared to other Hindus. Deshasthas claim Karhades as their own for superfluous reasons and to establish martial relations because Karhades are considered handsomer and to have better physical characteristics than Deshasthas.

Additionally, some of the last names found among Karhades (and only Karhades in the whole of Maharashtra) match with those of people from the Punjab and Gujarat region. A quick googling of their last names can provide plenty of evidence of this fact. So, it is possible that they are migrants from North-western part of India. If Varhaad or North-East India was already very well to do, why would Karhades leave those places and move South-West? Why not move South-East or North-West? That defies logic. More likely is migration from North-west India (where there is a desert) or even beyond Himalayas, where natural productivity of land is comparatively lesser. Claims of Karhades being of Deshastha origins are completely baseless and need to be stopped.

Another possibility is that the Karhades in and around Goa may be of Portuguese origin. Again, why would anyone migrate from a very well productive North-East part of India to Goa, where land productivity is lower? Portuguese have been know to come and reside in India and in particular, Goa, since the advent of Vasco da Gama (1498). It is possible that some people of Portuguese origin adopted Hinduism or got inter-mixed with the local population and formed their own community. Obviously, very few people would do that since there was never a very large-scale migration of Portuguese in to India. Which is why Karhades are far less in number (<100,000) compared to the overall population of India, even today.

All this provides evidence that Karhades migrated from the North-west either by the sea or land route. It is possible that they inter-married and got mixed with the local population over time since Karhades have always been more liberal and accepting of other people. But their origins being in Varhaad or any other part of North-East India is highly unlikely. Modern theorists and historians make such claims only to impose their (North-Eastern) version of Hinduism on Karhades. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.107.78.167 (talk) 16:08, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Great deal of silliness in the claims that Karhades are of Portuguese in origin. Karhade Brahmins in general tend to be quite dark and short and certainly lack the caucasian-like structure of the other Brahmin subcastes of Maharashtra. The overwhelming evidence of Karhade Brahmins being from the Karad region seems by far the most accurate history and is agreed upon in general by most scholars and historians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:569:72C8:3E00:B85B:C3D8:A5FF:5BFC (talk) 04:59, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree that karhades don't look Portuguese by any stretch of the imagination. I dont think we can classify anyone based on looks. Everyone looks different. My friend who is a pure karhade is medium fair and tall but he does not look even a bit European. My distant relative who is also a karhade is short and dark. His wife is also a pure karhade from a rural place is super-dark. I have also seen dark koknasthas and fair deshasthas. So there is no way to speculate or classify based on looks. Based on my observation in Pune/Mumbai, saraswats/CKPs have sharpest features in Marathis irrespective of color and some have brown eyes but only koknasthas seem to have green/greyish eyes. In general, Kobras seem to be the fairest and might have some euro component. Other than the Kobras all marathis look 100% pure marathi :-) -Acharya63 (talk) 06:16, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

I am looking at Sandhya Gokhale's book (page 60): The chitpawans: She has given a list of castes that were considered of aryan origin by historian Vaidya. They are Nagar Brahmins, Deshastha Brahmins, Chitpawans, CKP and Punjabi Khatri. Acharya63 (talk) 07:11, 17 February 2018 (UTC).

Good information by historian Vaidya. Regarding the observation that Saraswat/CKPs seem to have sharpest features, it's purely subjective. I have seen exactly the opposite. I do agree that the Kobras by-and-large seem to have the fairest features. Lastly, the comment "all marathis look 100% pure marathi" seems a bit odd but that's ok.

I have indented your post. The last part of my post(pure marathi) was just a joke(hence the smiley). What I wanted to say was that marathi people are very unlikely to have European origin. Anyway, I agree with you that features are subjective based on who you meet in real life. Even people from the same family have different 'feature sharpness'. The reason I mentioned Vaidya was that he did not classify Karhade in the Aryan category. Acharya63 (talk)

While we are on the subject of classifying people based on looks, the entire post by the "Portuguese Karhades" claimant is full of outrageous generalizations and it's surprising that this kind of garbage is allowed on Indian Wikipedia, even on the Talk page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:569:72C8:3E00:CF3:B1A:96EB:9DB5 (talk) 18:15, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Although I do agree with you about the Portuguese claim(which is absurd IMO), I believe it is wikipedia policy to not delete content on the talk page as it is considered part of "free speech"- even if inaccurate. There are exceptions to this rule (I think) - such as cases when there are personal attacks or personal information like emails etc being posted.-Acharya63 (talk) 23:55, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Besides the Portuguese claim, the other assertions such as being handsomer and stronger/more liberal and forward-looking are subjective to the level of being absurd, IMO. Also troubling is how another Brahmin sub-caste is being repeatedly berated using ad hominem arguments by generalization to an extent that it almost seems personal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.50.231.5 (talk) 19:08, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

I had not read all the comments in detail until you mentioned it. True, making general comments such as Karhades being handsomer compared to Deshasthas - and hence the deshasthas trying to marry them - is an absurd racist generalization (something that the British were good at) - and it is laughable. Acharya63 (talk) 03:36, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

There is a lot of speculation floating around here and on the Wikipage under the guise of evidence. On pages 26-27 of the Introduction in Corpus Inscriptionum Indicarum Vol. 6 , the author, V. V. Mirashi , has given the etymology of the name of the modern-day town of Karad . During the rule of the Sinda and Shilāhāra Kings at Karad (9th-12th century A.D.), the town was known by the name karahāta, or करहाट. The Shilāhāra rulers of karahāta maintained the practice of appending the prefix "Lord of karahāta", or करहाटपति, to their royal names. This is corroborated with the information about the Shilāhāra kings found in the Vikramānkadevacharita of the Kashmiri poet Bilhana , wherein they are referred to in the singular as karahāta-pati, or "lord of करहाट". The Sinda Kings used the prefix करहाटपुरवराधीश्वर, implying more or less the same meaning. In the section "Religious condition" in the same Introduction as well as elsewhere in the same chapter, the historical reference to the karhāde brāhmaṇas finds mention. In the copper-plates of the Shilāhāra kings, they were referred to in the plural as करहाटकाः, meaning "hailing from karahāta" or "residents of karahāta". The "कः" suffix was used in the same sense as the modern-day suffix "-kar" used in scores of Marathi surnames. P. K. Gode , in "Studies in Indian Cultural History Vol. 3" has written an essay "The Origin and Antiquity of the Caste-name of the Karahāṭaka or Karhāḍā Brahmins" which has various references for the etymology of the word "karhade" as well as references to the practice of calling Karhade braahmans "Karhade" because they originate from Karad. The modern-day Karad was also referred to in various inscriptions as karahada (करहड) as well as karahāta (करहाट) as mentioned before. The explicit nature of this information in the aforementioned treatises calls the speculation of the name "karhade" originating from "orchards, called Karhataks" into question.ThakurPradeep (talk) 11:05, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
The speculations of Deshastha origin, Portuguese origin, Indo-Scythian origin, identification with Kshaharatas and subsequent Brahmanization will have to be judged as superficial and baseless, if no concrete references are provided to support these claims. It is okay to retain them on the talk page, but not on the Wikipage. For want of strong evidence, these speculations would be best removed from the Wikipage wherever they appear.
In light of the talk-page guidelines of staying objective, dealing with facts and sharing material, I am removing the material from the section "Culture and Language" and placing it here: "Originally the Kshaharatas perhaps spoke an old Eastern-Iranian language, however under the increasing cultural influences from the Satavahanas gradually their languages were Prakritised. They used Kharoshti and Brahmi scripts for writing. Subsequent Brahminisation during the Middle Ages inspired the Karhades to learn Sanskrit as a medium to officiate religious ceremonies."ThakurPradeep (talk) 11:40, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

The following content is also being removed from "Etymology and Origin" for being more speculative than evidential: "a much more popular and simplistic theory (however unfounded) relates the origin of this tribe to the modern day town of Karad which is on the banks of the upper Krishna river on the Deccan plateau. However, if this theory is accepted, it becomes difficult to explain when, why and how they migrated to Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh, Kerala, Goa & Karnataka. The 'Sahyadri Khanda' in a rather demeaning way to Karhade and Chitpavan Brahmins, indicate that the Karhade were resurrected from the bones of a camel." I am replacing it with "In the Introduction in Corpus Inscriptionum Indicarum Vol. 6 , the author, Dr. Vasudev Vishnu Mirashi, has given the etymology of the name of the modern-day town of Karad. During the rule of the Sinda and Shilāhāra Kings at Karad (9th-12th century A.D.), the town was known by the name karahāta, or करहाट. The Shilāhāra rulers of karahāta maintained the practice of appending the prefix "Lord of karahāta", or करहाटपति, to their royal names. This is corroborated with the information about the Shilāhāra kings found in the Vikramānkadevacharita of the Kashmiri poet Bilhana, wherein they are referred to in the singular as karahāta-pati, or "lord of करहाट". The Sinda Kings used the prefix करहाटपुरवराधीश्वर, implying more or less the same meaning. In the section "Religious condition" as well as elsewhere in the same chapter, historical references to the karhāde brāhmaṇas find mention. In the copper-plates of the Shilāhāra kings, they were referred to in the plural as करहाटकाः, meaning "hailing from karahāta" or "residents of karahāta". The "कः" suffix was used in the same sense as the modern-day suffix "-kar" used in scores of Marathi surnames. Parashuram Krishna Gode, in "Studies in Indian Cultural History Vol. 3" has published an essay "The Origin and Antiquity of the Caste-name of the Karahāṭaka or Karhāḍā Brahmins" which has various references for the etymology of the word "karhade", references to the practice of calling Karhade braahmans "Karhade" because they originate from Karad and other historical references."ThakurPradeep (talk) 12:49, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

References

Lata Mangeshkar, Ashutosh Gowarikar

Lata Mangeshkar is a Saraswat Brahmin. I think Ashutosh Gowariker too is a Saraswat. Please check your references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20.6.11.39 (talk) 16:45, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Ashutosh Gowariker is Karhade for sure. Gowarikers are Karhade. Kkoolpatz (talk) 19:26, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

When we talk about prominent figure of Karhade Brahmins, shouldn't we include the name of the industrialist family of Kirloskars in it? I would request someone to do that. I would had done it but don't know how to make the changes.Mayuresh Bhagwat (talk) 14:39, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Do add the info you want in there over here. I will update if it is correct. also dont forget to add a link for the source in case you decide to mention any fact. Kkoolpatz (talk) 19:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Lata Mangeshkar surely is Karhade Brahmin as their original Family surname was Hardikar who are Karhade Brahmins, Pt.Dinanath changed their surname to Mangeshkar as he was devotee of Mangesh, the revered deity in Goa, pl. see the link to Hridayanath Mangeshkar page http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Hridaynath_Mangeshkar (User:Mayur Kher) 18.18, 1 July 2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.203.25.5 (talk) 12:08, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

References

About Lata Mangeshkar

Lata Mangeshkar belongs to Devadasi community,and their family was serving Mangesh Maharudra temple,and definitely she has got karhade blood in her veins because her father's father was a Karhade ie the priest of Mangesh temple,Balubhat Abhisheki. I know the Gowarikars. They are Karhade Brahmins.```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.243.29.182 (talk) 05:05, 2 February 2010 (UTC) My name is Ashok Manohar Gawarikar and I am karhade Brahmin shandilya gotra shakal shakha. Ashutosh's grandfather Shri Ranchod Gawarikar is cousin brother of my grandfather Vinayak Gawarikar. Our kul devanand is Ravalnath vyghrambari . I do not know about Lata Ji she is above any caste — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.186.37.83 (talk) 14:07, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Lata Mangeshkar's caste has been listed on wikipedia as Gomantak Maratha. But it says in her ancestor's webpage that the male ancestry was Karhade Brahmin. So it is surprising how she became a maratha since the custom is to inherit father's caste. I always assumed she was a Brahmin. It is a big surprise for me. Not that it matters anyway.-Acharya63 (talk) 10:00, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Mangeshkar family aren't regarded as Brahmins in Goa because Deenanath Mangeshkar's parents weren't married to each other (his pujari father was already married to a Karhade Brahmin lady and had offspring with her, his mother was his father's Devadasi mistress). Only the wife's descendants (like Abhisheki family) are regarded as Karhade Brahmins in Goa, Mangeshkar family are classified as Gomantak Maratha Samaj like Deenanath's mother. Mangeshkar family are also not allowed to perform temple rituals in Mangueshi Temple due to "caste concerns": https://www.firstpost.com/entertainment/asha-bhosle-has-not-done-enough-for-goa-bjp-lawmaker-2-760577.html 49.15.232.114 (talk) 01:09, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

About Hemadri Pandit a.k.a. hemADpanta

The "pandit" in Hemadri Pandit's name is a title, or उपाधि, reserved for scholars of renown and repute in medieval India, and is unlikely to be the surname "Pandit" found predominantly in the karhāḍe brāhmaṇ group. Keshav Appa Padhye's biography of Hemadri Pandit (a copy of which is in my possession) clearly states, on the very first page of the introductory chapter, that Hemadri was a Shuklayajurvedi (adherent of the Shuklayajurved) Vatsagotri (belonging to the Vatsa Gotra) Panchapravari ब्राह्मण(५: जामदग्ना वत्सास्तेषां पञ्चार्षेयो भार्गवच्यावनाप्नवानौर्वजामदग्नेति, ref. आश्वलायनश्रौतसूत्र). Padhye has mentioned the reference for this information to be the book authored by Hemadri himself, चतुर्वर्गचिंतामणि. He states that Hemadri has himself mentioned this in his own book along with the names of his father, grandfather and great-grandfather. Assuming the correctness of this information, the claim that Hemadri was a karhāḍā brāhmaṇ contradicts the information that all karhāḍe brāhmaṇ families are ऋग्वेदीय (adherents of the Ṛgveda), which is easily verifiable even today. The Hemadri-karhāḍe connection has already been removed from the wikipage of Hemadri Pandit , because we have no evidence that Hemadri Pandit belonged to the karhāḍe brāhmaṇ group. If nobody responds to the piece of info that I have provided, with positive evidence supporting the claim that Hemadri belonged to the karhāḍe brāhmaṇ group, then it would be advisable, for the purposes of historical accuracy, to remove Hemadri's mention on the karhāḍe brāhmaṇ wikipage.

ThakurPradeep (talk) 14:28, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
I am removing Hemadri's mention from the "Notables" section for the reasons mentioned above: "* Hemadpant, Prime Minister of Yadavas in the 13th century" ThakurPradeep (talk) 11:43, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

I am also removing the following from "Culture and Language":

Amruteshwar temple characteristic of the style popularised by the well known Karhada minister of the Seuna Yadava kingdom of the Deccan - Hemadri Pandith Hemadpant.

ThakurPradeep (talk) 11:52, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

References

no sources?

I am interested in working on this page. Can someone point me to some reliable sources as I cannot update Wikipedia based on just personal knowledge.

Notable people

Hi MRRaja001, I see two entries in the Notable people section without source. Can you provide ref them? - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 12:11, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk: Okay mate. I'll find out and update. - MRRaja001 ^(talk) 14:32, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Thankds MRRaja001, only N. S. Hardikar remains. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 15:40, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk: I found four people with the Surname Hardikar and all of them belong to Karhade Brahmin community. But unable to find exact community name of N. S. Hardikar. Many of the citations of N. S. Hardikar are referring to him as just Brahmin and not particularly Karhade Brahmin. - MRRaja001 ^(talk) 16:20, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

MRRaja001 Yeah, I wasn't able to find any source that mentions him as Karhade Brahmin, only Brahmin. I believe we should remove this entry, move it to List of Brahmins. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:22, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk: Yeah! that's better. - MRRaja001 ^(talk) 16:28, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

MRRaja001 Can you provide a source . For some reason, google is not returning me the sources proper sources I previously searched, not directing to the specific links. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 16:47, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk: I found this, is it enough - MRRaja001 ^(talk) 17:00, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

@MRRaja001: Done Thanks a bunch, moved to List of Brahmins. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:04, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk: Okay. - MRRaja001 ^(talk) 17:46, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

References

Visaji Biniwale

Hi @Fylindfotberserk and MRRaja001: Do we consider any publication by Popular prakashan to be unreliable? I am particularly baffled by replacement of Kantak's book by Gokhale's.I believe both of them worked for the Deccan College Post-Graduate and Research Institute. I have also used many articles by these two for other wikipedia articles. Also for any reader interested in Biniwale, Kantak's book dwelves deeper into the accomplishments of Visaji-pant.I look forward to your comments. Jonathansammy (talk) 15:50, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

@Jonathansammy: Sitush has listed one book the under Indic publications of dubious merit. Don't know whether unreliability of one book effects (blacklists) the whole publication. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:36, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

References