Talk:Karelian Group

Establishment of the page.

Greetigs all, have just started this page with limited information that I could extract from sources. If anybody is willing to or has further information on the unit and wants to add it, please do so. DavidsonParaquet (talk) 18:13, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for working on this article. I think it would be good to find non-Ukrainian sources that describe this unit. Promote Ukraine is an advocacy organisation and Україна молода is not a top-rate media outlet either. Alaexis_¿question? 08:03, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Hey there, thank you for the guidance. Since I stated this article and try my best to continuously update it, I have always struggled with finding reliable or accurate sources. I mainly source my information from Telegram which is deemed unreliable, however, I am really left with no choice. There generally is not very much on this specific unit considering how new and obscure it is, though I will try my best to try and gain some additional sources that are much more reliable and accurate.

I have tried to reach out to the Karelian National Battalion on Telegram, as well as through email but I did not receive an answer. Davomme (talk) 10:55, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

We can't know for sure, but it's possible that it simply does not exist, at least as a battalion-strength unit.

There are some well-documented units like Dzhokhar Dudayev Battalion that fight on the Ukrainian side, but then the Chechens have a history of fighting Russia and there are over a million of them. I'm rather skeptical about the Karelians who number only 30 thousand.

I'll make some changes to the lede to make sure the readers are not misled. Obviously if better sources appear we'll update the article. Alaexis_¿question? 11:44, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

The unit is regarded as a batallion as it most probably intends to draw up international or ethnic Karelians, Finns or Ukrainians themselves. Many other units such as the Norman Brigade, another article i have heavily worked on, are known as a brigade despite not making up brigade size. Additionally, the Russian Volunteer Corps and similar units only number a couple hundred men and still regard themselves as a Corps.

I have had doubts as to whether the unit actually exists, however it is fair to say it most probably does but under a few fighters numbering most probably 100 men maximum that are drawn up from Russia, Karelia, Ukraine, and Finland. The only other option is that it is a deceptive tactic to try and cause havoc in the Karelia area and to try and divert military personnel from Ukraine to the region. Despite this, we have to assume it exists and try to actually update it.

When better sources are delivered, we can definitely update it, I am planning right now to actually create the correct insignia of this unit since this one is based off a version that appeared from one of the sources used in this article and even then the one that is currently used is incorrect. The correct insignia is actually the first Telegram post on the Karelian National Batallion's channel. When I get round to creating it, I will actually correct it. Davomme (talk) 15:32, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Is this even a real unit =

So i can't find any reliable source that this unt even exist and than see that all articles that this guy work on are pro ukrainian articels and the next article is a article about some German Volunteer Corps. Ithink this guy is maybe a paid pro ukrainian writer — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dirkk 123 (talk • contribs) 16:20, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

its real alright. so dirk maybe you can edit russian wiki for a little bit.. 2600:1700:BEB0:6EB0:79EF:C246:F608:8EC4 (talk) 02:33, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

The unit allegedly exists under the Main Directorate of Intelligence, but there are patches and a social media profile to verify its conception or existence on paper, but there seems to be no official verification of the unit partaking in combat.

To combat your allegations of me being a 'paid' pro-Ukrainian writer, I am not and I do this for enjoyment because I like to write about these topics. If you have seen any of my other contributions I don't just edit Ukrainian pages.. I wrote in a substantiated and neutral tone in both articles, I do not appeal to either side of the conflict due to the rules and guidelines on Wikipedia. Please don't throw around these types of words around about me again. Davomme (talk) 08:16, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Should this article even exist?

The entire article is built off social media posts from the group. Doing a google search of these guys only gives a couple of blogs, and this wikipedia page. There has yet to be any major, or minor as far as I can tell, news orginization talking about these guys. I feel that they would fail WP:ORG, and am wondering why this page even exists. A one sentence description in the International Legion article should really be all there is to say about these guys. I'm going to put down some improvement tags, and will set a self imposed deadline of the end of the month (October 2023) to nominate this article for deletion if it's quality doesn't improve. Scu ba (talk) 12:54, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

I believe it should, but there is a lot of unreliable or a lack of sources for this article surrounding this topic. If obscure units such as the Belarusian Volunteer Corps using similar articles also get equal entitlement to an article on Wikipedia, then arguably so should the Karelian National Battalion as it relies on Ukrainian news outlets as well as other charities and organisations that have stated or mentioned the existence of the unit. Davomme (talk) 08:17, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

The main problem, which I fear may not have come across in my initial comment, but I can't even find the Ukrainian sources for the battalion. Sure we have four cited but doing a search for these guys results in nothing other than some blogs, reddit and twitter. Unlike the Belarusian Volunteer Corps where a quick google search offers three recent news articles about the group which aren't cited in the wikipedia article (which I will integrate right after this).

Additionally, these other units go into detail about the combat the units have seen, or the command structure of the units. This article just says "its totally real guys" and then paraphrases their social media comments. They have not been seen at the front, nor do we know anything about their internal structure. I just feel like there is a one sentence summery for these guys like below. Scu ba (talk) 20:18, 10 October 2023 (UTC)

Patch	Name	Description
	Karelian National Battalion	Formed in 2023, consists of Karelians formerly affiliated with the Karelian National Movement. The unit's self stated mission is the liberation of Karelia from Russian control.

It is now December and there has been no progress source wise, and even the less then acceptable sources have dried up on material for this. They have also been removed from the international legion page, putting into question if they are even in the international legion, or some other territorial defense unit. I would have proposed a merger RfC by now, but I have no idea where to merge this article anymore. Scu ba (talk) 19:48, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Roundel Insignia of the Battalion

The roundel insignia of the battalion was never officially used and only uploaded through media publications, unrelated to the Karelian National Battalion. No sources or any media pieces used by the KNB indicate no use or reference to the roundel variant of the insignia whatsoever. Davomme (talk) 13:35, 10 April 2024 (UTC)