Talk:Kaizo

Requested move 20 February 2020

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not moved. BD2412 T 04:19, 12 March 2020 (UTC)

• Kaizo → Kaizo (video game genre)
• Kaizo (disambiguation) → Kaizo

– Pageviews do not show a clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC between Kaizo the genre and Kaizō the magazine (formerly at Kaizō). At points in 2019 the pageviews for the magazine were only slightly less. Having it at the base name would be WP:RECENTISM. _{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 18:09, 20 February 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 20:13, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 21:05, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Page views are not the basis for WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. By internal links, the genre has more internal links than the magazine. In any English reliable source search, the genre has more top hits than the magazine. Readers searching for "Kaizo" in the English language are looking for the genre, not a disambiguation between the genre, a historical magazine, and the first name of a director not widely covered outside Japan. czar 02:38, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per Czar. Very few people are interested in the magazine. Also, if you're going to cite pageviews as your argument, you should link the comparison of pageviews which completely contradicts your claim. SnowFire (talk) 03:16, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. The pageviews are clear in this case. Kaizo is not heavily viewed by any means, but pageviews for the magazine may as well be nonexistent. Nohomersryan (talk) 03:33, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
• Support. The magazine scores very high on the "long-term significance" criterion here. Dekimasuよ! 10:57, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

How? Its article makes no such assertion. And how does that affect the dab page being the primary topic instead of the magazine? czar 19:01, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

I am not claiming that the magazine is the primary topic. I am claiming that there is no primary topic, which defaults to the dab page as shown in the request. Here are some examples of the significance of the magazine: "In 1919 the Kaizo was published and became a good rival of the Chuo Koron which had attained leading position in the magazine world of Japan by this time" (Japan Year Book 1939), "When a Japanese approached a newsstand looking for criticism of major state policies, what did he find? The purpose here is not to identify a few radical publications eluding the censor, but to gauge the normal boundaries of legally allowed debate. Three mainstream periodicals of high circulation may be used to illustrate these boundaries: the Asahi Shinbun, a critical national newspaper with over a million readers, and Chuo Koron (Central Review) and Kaizo (Reconstruction), two monthlies printing over 100,000 copies each.... Their intellectual appeal and high quality placed them above all competitors–even classified police documents labeled them as the 'matchless twin stars' of the magazine field" (The State and the Mass Media in Japan, 1918–1945), "The creative writing that appeared in the general magazines Chuo Koron and Kaizo was regarded before World War II as being definitive of its kind" (Japan: Its Land, People and Culture, published by the Japanese government and UNESCO), etc. Dekimasuよ! 21:19, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. Not very familiar with either, but Kaizo Mario World is all I get when searching, which says alot about the genre being prominent. --Quiz shows 18:51, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

• Funny, it's almost like the magazine was prominent long before the Internet was invented, so the sources aren't on the Internet._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 04:42, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

• Support - I watched The Wind Rises this week, and clicked through from The Wind Has Risen to a niche Mario hack genre. Embarrassing. Either return it to the magazine or make it a disambig. Current status is pure recentism. - hahnchen 14:11, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
• I believe disambiguation best represents the status quo in either event. Until February 20, the magazine and the genre were disambiguated only by the macron. ZXCVBNM moved both to disambiguated titles, presumably because this wasn't sufficient under WP:SMALLDETAILS. Then Czar returned the genre back to the plain title. So before the changes we basically had two stable plain titles that were insufficiently disambiguated. Combined with the evidence I presented above, I believe having the disambiguation page at the plain title is the best possible solution here. Pinging back Nohomersryan, SnowFire, and Quiz shows in case they have further comment. Dekimasuよ! 04:04, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC based on page views; the nom's claim about page views not indicating a clear primary topic is baseless and wrong. The genre commands an order of magnitude more page views than the magazine does. I am personally unfamiliar with this topic, but RECENTISM? That's for temporary spikes in notoriety due to recent events. The relatively high interest in the Kaizo video game genre here is not due to any recent event; it's not interest that can be expected to die out soon. And it's highly unlikely for the defunct magazine to start growing interest levels. And who is helped by putting a dab page at the base name? Nobody! Currently, at least those searching for the genre with "kaizo" are taken directly to the article they seek. The magazine seekers are one click away either way. If this proposal carries, then nobody searching with "kaizo" will be taken to the article they seek; everyone will have to slog through the extra click? Why burden the users like this? --В²C ☎ 20:39, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

• It's currently two clicks away, not one. (And it was formerly zero clicks away, because users looking for the magazine would have been the same ones who knew to add the macron. But I'm not trying to defend the previous setup.) Who benefits from the dab at the base name? Well, it would prevent the creation of invalid links that won't get cleaned up coming in from major works of Japanese literature, for one thing. Hahnchen pointed out one above. I see at least 12 others at what links here at first glance. Part of the problem could be fixed by redirecting the macronned version to the dab, at least, since video game users are definitely not adding the Japanese macron. Dekimasuよ! 05:03, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
  • Okay, I updated the hatnote link so that the magazine is now actually only one click away. I also changed the Kaizō redirect to go directly to the magazine at Kaizō (magazine), though I think it probably should be moved to that basename. Thanks. --В²C ☎ 17:40, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

• NOTE: I've requested the revert of the related undiscussed Kaizō → Kaizō (magazine) move mentioned in the nom. See: Wikipedia:Requested_moves#Requests_to_revert_undiscussed_moves --В²C ☎ 17:50, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
  • The move has been reverted; the article about the magazine is now back at Kaizō. --В²C ☎ 19:03, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

not just mario

Kaizo is used for different games aswell, not just mario. Norschweden (talk) 11:04, 24 June 2022 (UTC)