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Adding unreferenced entries of former employees to lists containing BLP material

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Hello, Please do not add unreferenced names as entries to the list of former employees in articles. Including this type of material in articles does not abide by current consensus and its inclusion is strongly discouraged in our policies and guidelines. The rationales are as follows:

  1. WP:NOT tells us, Wikipedia is "not an indiscriminate collection of information." As that section describes, just because something is true, doesn't necessarily mean the info belongs in Wikipedia.
  2. As per WP:V, we cannot include information in Wikipedia that is not verifiable and sourced.
  3. WP:Source list tells us that lists included within articles (including people's names) are subject to the same need for references as any other information in the article.
  4. Per WP:BLP, we have to be especially careful about including un-sourced info about living persons.

If you look at articles about companies in general, you will not find mention of previous employees, except in those cases where the employee was particularly notable. Even then, the information is not presented just as a list of names, but is incorporated into the text itself (for example, when a company's article talks about the policies a previous CEO had, or when they mention the discovery/invention of a former engineer/researcher). If a preexisting article is already in the encyclopedia for the person you want to add to a list, it's generally regarded as sufficient to support their inclusion in list material in another article. cheers Deconstructhis (talk) 03:58, 28 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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Location

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The street address for the station is allowable in this article, because other types of articles allow it. Street addresses are shown in the: infobox of businesses - Apple Inc. / Google / Microsoft; infobox of high schools - Fort Hamilton High School / Long Beach Polytechnic High School / Lane Tech College Prep High School; infobox of museums - American Museum of Natural History / Metropolitan Museum of Art / Modern Art Museum of Fort Worth; infobox of convention centers - Las Vegas Convention Center / McCormick Place / Orange County Convention Center; infobox of amphitheaters - Hollywood Bowl / Azura Amphitheater / Hearst Greek Theatre; infobox of school districts - West New York School District / El Paso Independent School District / Gadsden County School District; infobox of baseball stadiums - Yankee Stadium / Wrigley Field / Dodger Stadium; infobox of government buildings - White House / Lamoille County Courthouse / Suwannee County Courthouse; and there are numerous other examples on Wikipedia too. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 17:02, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would tend to agree that there is no policy-based reason to not have the address in the infobox, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Mvcg66b3r. I am also certain that adding it was not an unconstructive edit and was done in good faith. Mvcg66b3r, please be careful and make sure to revert good faith edits as good faith edits and not vandalism, and don't template the regulars. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 17:10, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm just following accepted standards. Maybe you should talk to @Sammi Brie: about this. Mvcg66b3r (talk) 17:28, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mvcg66b3r: What accepted standards? Link? Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 17:34, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just the uniform standards for TV/radio infoboxes. See Template:Infobox television station. Mvcg66b3r (talk) 17:36, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Sbmeirow, @Ks0stm, @Mvcg66b3r: I've never, ever, ever seen an address stuffed in the |location= parameter of {{Infobox television station}}, and I've been in this topic field for a very long time.
We use |location= in a slightly unusual way. We use it as a field that indicates both the city of license and the key city or cities in the coverage area—essentially, the media market and the city of license (which is also indicated often in the |city= parameter). The way this parameter is structured is one of the biggest differences from {{Infobox radio station}}, where we would have |city= and |area= defined.
Television stations, especially smaller operations (though not one of the size of KWCH), present serious barriers to the inclusion of addresses. Here are some examples of what would be very tough edge cases.
  • KDCU-DT has local offices in downtown Wichita. Its main studio on file with the FCC is nowhere near Wichita: it's in Denver. Now that'd be confusing for non-topic readers!
  • The Trinity Broadcasting Network used to maintain local studios throughout the country, but when the FCC removed the main studio rule, it closed many of them. There are also stations in other networks, like Ion Television, where local operations are limited to nonexistent and the programming is merely transported from a central hub.
  • Many low-power TV stations do not have studios or local programming of any kind, just a transmitter site whose coordinates are already included.
And that's not even getting into other internationalization concerns. This would be a fairly large change in usage and, for the reasons I outline above, one I would not support myself. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 19:16, 17 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Doing nothing doesn't solve the problem. Just because there isn't a local studio in every market doesn't mean you can't find a solution to this problem! • Sbmeirow • Talk • 05:45, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What type of solution really exists for such a multifaceted problem that, again, needs to take internationalization concerns into account? The exact address of a studio location is a North America-centric concept and really originated with the US Federal Radio Commission's card system a century ago. And again, the FCC has basically rendered the concept moot.
There's a difference between "doing nothing" and knowing the limitations that are presented before you. Nathan Obral • he/him • t • c • 17:21, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hey User:Ks0stm, lots of sillyness going on here. They thinks its fine to include the exact coordinates location of the transmitting tower, but not the main studio address (location), neither in the infobox or intro section. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 04:54, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Read Sammi's statement above; it applies to lead paragraphs too. Mvcg66b3r (talk) 05:16, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If you can find a place to put the exact coordinates of the transmitting tower, then you can find a place to put the local studio street address of stations where it is applicable. You aren't trying hard enough, such as not adding new fields to the infobox to fix this problem. • Sbmeirow • Talk • 05:32, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Adding new infobox fields requires consensus among editors. Mvcg66b3r (talk) 05:36, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Mvcg66b3r: You don't like it in the lead or infobox; where will you allow the information be put into the article? Let's try to find a productive solution that incorporates the information into the article in a way everyone is happy with. Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 05:51, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
All you need to do is set up a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television and look for a consensus among editors there. Nathan Obral • he/him • t • c • 17:28, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree that this is "sillyness" (sp). I've rarely if ever seen exact addresses for a studio used in a lede. Obvious cases in which a building with an existing article that houses a TV station studio is another matter (NBC Tower and WMAQ-TV/WSNS-TV; Daily News Building and WPIX; Pence Building and WUCW) but those don't have the exact addresses listed. Nathan Obral • he/him • t • c • 17:35, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

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GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:KWCH-DT/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 17:01, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:01, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Images are appropriately licensed. Earwig finds an overlap with this page, but it's a Wikipedia mirror. Sources are reliable.

  • "recognized that much of its viewing audience would be in the air capital": what does "air capital" mean?
  • Not required for GA, but a map showing some of the towns mentioned would help the reader understand the regional expansion -- you mention Ensign, Dodge City, Garden City, Goodland, and Hays, in addition to Wichita and Hutchinson, but I imagine most readers, like me, will have no idea of the relative locations.
  • "In 1963, the station activated a new transmitter": suggest making this "In 1963, KTVH activated a new transmitter" since we've talked about several other stations since the last mention of KVTH.
  • "would give the Gaylord interests too much media power": what does "Gaylord interests" refer to?
  • "Hearings were set for November, but by that time, the sale contract neared its expiration on December 31": suggest "Hearings were set for November, but this was near the expiration date of the sales contract on December 31".
  • "In response, channel 12 purchased the Wichita studio site outright after leasing it for 20 years": suggest "after having leased it for 20 years".
  • Since the parent company was not renamed Cowles until 1982 -- and you introduce the name change at the start of the "The Look of a Leader" section -- shouldn't we refer to the company as the Minneapolis Star and Tribune Company rather than Cowles for events prior to that date?
  • Can we get a link or footnote to define "failing station waiver"?
  • "KWCH operates the high school sports vertical Catch It Kansas": what does "vertical" mean here?

I'll do some spotchecks shortly. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:52, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Spotchecks:

  • FN 46 cites "In April 2011, KWCH began producing a weeknight Spanish-language newscast at 10:00 p.m. for KDCU-DT, which was produced for the remainder of the JSA with Entravision." I don't think this can cover the second half, as it's only the announcement of the launch.
  • FN 27 cites "Among Smith's first actions were to appoint part-owner Sandy DiPasquale, who later became the CEO of Newport Television, as president and general manager and to change the call letters on the western and central Kansas stations to designations that incorporated "KBS"." This doesn't cite DiPasquale's later career.
  • FN 11 cites "KAYS-TV purchased the financially struggling Goodland station, by then known as KLOE-TV, and combined the two as one operation. Further, KAYS-TV joined CBS on November 1, 1962." This doesn't seem correctly cited either -- the source is dated August 1962 so it can't cover a November event, and I don't see mention of KLOE or Goodland.
    Looks like you must have moved the old source rather than added to it? There's just one citation for the first sentence, and now it covers KLOE and Goodland, but not the other information in the first half of the sentence. And "joined CBS on September 1, 1962" is still cited to the August source; I think you have to say "announced" or "reported" or something like that to avoid the problem. And neither source says KAYS-TV purchased KWHT-TV as far as I can see -- the second source does mention KWHT-TV in a way that makes it clear KAYS-TV owns it but that's all. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:52, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Readded the source there, Mike Christie. It gets weird because we have a lot of events at once. The August purchase, the call sign change, KAYS to CBS... I've tried to reword this in a way that makes more sense! Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 23:09, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Normally I'd fail an article with three out of three failed spotchecks, but I know your work is usually very carefully cited, so I think I must have been unlucky in checking some bad apples. I'll check some more; do you want to run through the article and look for other source-text issues to be on the safe side before I go through? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:02, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie You managed to find a different error: I wrote November when it was September 1. A lot happened at once, and there was also a call sign change in there amidst all of this (you missed the KWHT-TV reference).
The Entravision JSA ended without fanfare. (Entravision brought KDCU's operation in house and runs it mostly from Denver.) There is absolutely no media coverage of the newscast being discontinued, so it's a bit awkward to handle.
I've struck the point since you removed it but I think if you made it "In April 2011, KWCH began producing a weeknight Spanish-language newscast at 10:00 p.m. for KDCU-DT" that would work; you're not obligated to mention when it ended. But it's also fine as is. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:52, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed the Sandy DiPasquale issue by adding a second reference. Also fixed or modified all of the copy items. A map of Kansas would actually be useful, and I will look at possibly including a map of the KBS transmitters (I've learned how to make such maps only recently). Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 21:53, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I just added a map. This is only the third one I've made, and working with these JSONs takes a bit of trial and error when there is more than one polygon. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 22:49, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Can we get labels, and some of the town names in there too? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:52, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have a lot of experience with the map side. The nice thing is you can click on the GeoJSON and get a full view overlaid on an OSM layer. But I'm not sure how some of the obvious features can be added; things like labels and zooming seem to be controlled by the size of the frame and zoom level. I'd have loved to add color (and tried to do so on attempt #2 in another page), but Wikipedia seems to force simplestyle on maps. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 22:59, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Replies and strikes above. I'll hold off on the second set of spotchecks till everything else is resolved. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:52, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Everything above now looks good. I'll do another round of spotchecks shortly. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:26, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Second spotchecks

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  • FN 53 cites "David Bloom, reporter (1988–1990)": verified.
  • FN 4 cites "The first test pattern went out on June 24, 1953": verified.
  • FN 8 cites "KTVH was the first television station to open that covered Wichita, the state's largest city, and recognized that much of its viewing audience would be there. In August 1954, channel 12 opened a satellite studio in Wichita's Lassen Hotel." Almost all verified, but there's nothing I can see about their expectations for their viewing audience.
  • FN 41 cites "The partnership expanded in 2011 with the addition of a local newscast." Verified.
  • FN 51 cites "For the rest of 2011, KSAS and KSCW carried simultaneous and separate newscasts before KSNW assumed the KSAS news production contract at the start of 2012." The source verifies part of this, but it's dated July 2011 so it couldn't cover the change at the start of 2012 anyway.
  • FN 34 cites "Over the decade that followed, KWCH rose to the top of the local news ratings, first in the Wichita metro and then in the full market beginning in 1991." All verified except for saying that they got to first in the Wichita metro area before they got there in the full market -- did I miss the relevant bit of the source?
  • FN 25 cites "The rumors became reality at the end of July when Cowles agreed to sell KTVH for $12 million to Ross Beach and Robert E. Schmidt of Hays, owners of KAYS and KLOE." Verified.

A couple of questions above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:54, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie Removed the item in fn 8. Added some refs around fn 51 to bolster; added a cite to the October source and a new one from late December.
Item in fn 34 is in the last paragraph on page 6A. When he arrived in 1989, the station's newscast was ranked No. 1 at 6 p.m. and 10 p.m. in Wichita, but it didn't lead statewide. About three years ago, KWCH began leading both in the metropolitan area and the state in all newscasts. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 04:25, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK on FN 34. The other fixes look good; I checked a couple more just to be on the safe side. Passing. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:10, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Did you know nomination

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Lightburst (talk) 04:11, 6 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

(
)

Improved to Good Article status by Sammi Brie (talk). Self-nominated at 18:53, 30 April 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/KWCH-DT; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.[reply]

  • Substantial article, meeting of GA criteria implicates DYK pass. Article was nominated within 7 days of passing GAR. QPQ has been completed. No pings on Earwigs for copyvio. Hook is interesting, cited, and short enough for DYK.
    • Hi Morgan695, wanted to flag something in your review for your knowledge. WP:DYKR straight up says, The fact that an article has been accepted as a Good article should not be considered an assumption that the article meets these criteria. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 05:35, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • Re-review needed. Not only can't you assume anything from the GA review—there have been newly passed GAs that end up being delisted by issues uncovered by the DYK reviewer—we don't allow GA reviewers to review the same article at DYK because of this possibility. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:09, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It was hard for me to connect the second part of the hook in the article but I got there. The article is a GA so it meets criteria for inclusion. It is neutral and the information is properly cited. The hook is in the article and it is moderately interesting. It appears to be free of plagiarism and the qpq is done. Bruxton (talk) 01:43, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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