Talk:Justin Meram

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:32, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Iraqi vs Iraqi American

I rather would avoid an edit war and find a resolution through reason.

Citing the guidelines: "In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.

Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability."

Justin's ethnicity is important to fully understand him as a subject. If he never actually competed for the Iraqi National Team, he would still be notable for being a American soccer player. In fact, he was born and maintains a permanent residency in the United States. These merits alone qualify him as a notable American. The fact he competed for Iraqi National team after these events occurred also makes it relevant that he is an Iraqi American. Otherwise a born american competing for the Iraqi national team would make no sense and be confusing for future readers. It important to understand the subjects ethnicity since it qualifies his football career and the ability to compete for the Iraqi National Team. It also maintains the context and understanding that he is in fact an American and achieved what he achieved as an American citizen. Synthfreq (talk) 01:24, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

This is most cases. It's not important. He plays for the Iraq national team. That makes him Iraqi. I can show you instances of more famous individuals who were born in other countries and play for the US Men's National Team who are listed only as American. I can show you an instance where a player was born in Australia, played for the Australian junior team but was not selected to play for the senior team and so instead played for Turkey. He is listed as Turkish. It's the way it's done. Discuss his background in the Career or International section. If you have issues, discuss at WP:FOOTY. Cheers. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:36, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

This in fact makes no sense. Please explain how you have arrived at your logic instead of saying that "it's done incorrectly somewhere else therefore it should be incorrect here". There are thousands of articles on Wikipedia where people with dual nationalities are correctly written about. A team that you compete for a handful of times doesn't completely define you as an individual especially when you have achieved many notable things under the flag of different country. It either should not be discussed at all or it should be more accurate to properly portray the individual. It would make sense if he lived in America but only competed and made his name in Iraq but that is not the case. The fact of the matter remains that this article is a misleading and inaccurate portrayal of the subject. Synthfreq (talk) 15:42, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry you don't understand me. The lede should reflect the player, not his heritage or his background. Football players are known for being foootballers. Not for where they're born. Not for where they live. Since FIFA recognizes him as an Iraqi so do we. If you have issues, discuss at WP:FOOTY. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:48, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I am sorry you don't understand me either. I do have issues with this and will discuss them further with others. I will also do my best to shed further light on the misrepresentation of dual nationality athletes on Wikipedia. Everything is not black and white so let's stick to Justin Meram for now. For further reading on this subject please read this article: [[1]]. After reading that article please tell me how referring to Justin Meram simply as Iraqi is at all accurate. If we cannot agree, I will seek a 3O or request for remediation through wikipedia dispute resolution channels. Synthfreq (talk) 15:58, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

It is black and white. It's not about nationality but about national team. Sorry. If you have issues, discuss at WP:FOOTY. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:09, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

I read through WP:FOOTY. First, it seems incomplete and under construction. Secondly, it clearly states that the suggestions are a guideline and nothing is "set in stone". This would mean that you are operating on your own interpretation rather than any clear consensus on dual nationality athletes. Synthfreq (talk) 18:25, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for reading FOOTY. That wasn't what I suggested. I suggested that you discuss it there instead. You clearly didn't find the project's talk page, the way you found this talk page, so I'll link you there: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:37, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

You really are just replying with links without really justifying your edits or providing any meaningful discourse. This is not useful or constructive in discussing Justin Meram. Synthfreq (talk) 04:57, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Actually, I have justified the original state of the article, you're reading it and not understanding it. I am providing meaningful discourse, particularly in my first reply, and you read it and stated that it "makes no sense". That is why I suggested that you discuss it with people who will have patience with you and explain it in a way that you can understand. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:07, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

"It's not about nationality but about national team." It quite literally is about nationality, or at the very least official citizenship, because that's what's being described. Would you say that Elon Musk is solely American because all of his companies are American? Justin Meram has had solely American citizenship for ~90% of his life thus far, and acquiring dual citizenship at 26-27 years old does not suddenly make him no longer an American. At the very least, his page should say "Iraqi-American". Ars3nic (talk) 21:26, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

No, it's about the nation team for which he plays. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:48, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

I see you ignored the project's consensus and did what you felt like doing. If you want to push your agenda, do so in an appropriate section, not the lede. See MOS:ETHNICITY and if you want to complain, take it to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:50, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

I still hold he's Iraqi per all of the statements here. We do not hyphenate nationalities. This apparently happened during a bout of edits debating the subject's religious heritages in July 2020 and I'm sorry I missed correcting it then. However, we do not simply remove nationality to placate one nation or another, we follow the guidelines from WP:FOOTY. Since he has played for Iraq, he should be listed as Iraqi. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:37, 7 August 2021 (UTC)