Talk:Junkers Ju 88/Archive 1

Archive 1

Ju 88G-6a/b/c versions

Info about these versions were taken from German Aircraft of the Second World War book published by Putnam (1990 edition). I know that this book is a little bit old (first edition in 1972) but I don't have more modern English publications like monography published by Crowood. Polish monography published by AJ-Press (and probably it's English edition, if exists) in early '90s has info about a/b/c versions. --Piotr Mikołajski 08:49, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Someone added the a/b/c stuff postwar to separate the different radar systems or antennas used by the Ju 88 with SN-2. a was proably the early version with additional FuG 202/212 for close range, b proably the SN-2 with close range capabilities and normal antenna dipoles, c with diagonal antennas dipoles and d probably SN-2 with rear-warning antennas. --Denniss 13:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't you think we should write about these "subversions" with note that such designation is post-war? The same with Ju 88C-6a and C-6b and probably other Luftwaffe planes. --Piotr Mikołajski 14:41, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, maybe we should. But the C-6a and C-6b seem to be correct as the first version was the day fighter-bomber/Zerstörer while the C-6b was the specialized night fighter. They only shared the fuselage but differed in armament and radar.--Denniss 16:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

WEIGHT IS WRONG? MIXED Lb and Kg? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.26.141 (talk) 21:55, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I found a website which says that duPont-owned General Motors plants in Germany manufactured thousands of bombers for the Nazi Luftwaffe during the 1930s (i.e., before WWII). GM's German plant built propulsion systems for the JU88 and motors for the Germans' new jet fighters, according to the article. GM also repaired Wermacht trucks and converted them to run on alternative fuels at GM facilities in Switzerland, according to the article. The website might have gotten their information from Charles Higham's "Trading with the Enemy". Someone should try to verify this information as it would be very interesting to some historians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.191.215.69 (talk) 23:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Factories in Germany owned by the enemy were appropriated by the Nazi government and so no funds from the sale or building of German war materiel would have been available to the US parent companies for the period 1941-45.

Any monies received by these US companies after 1945 were likely to have been restricted to compensation payments for the lack of availability of these factories to the US owners, and it is unlikely that either GM nor DuPont profited in any way from German wartime production in their plants. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.144.50.207 (talk) 10:23, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Design by Hugo Junkers

The plane couldn't be designed by Hugo Junkers (himself) since he died in February 1935 month before the project started. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beanformer (talk • contribs) 09:46, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Correct. Fixed. Dapi89 (talk) 16:29, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Still unsatisfactory. Hugo Junkers was squeezed out ( by nazi affiliates ) of his posessions in 1933.

For the two american engineers I would like to see some reference! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.180.224.80 (talk) 12:53, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Here is the documentation you requested:

"The Ju-88 design originated in 1935, as part of the Luftwaffe's goal of equipping its growing inventory with a fast medium bomber. The original design was by W.H. Evers and Alfred Gassner, who was an American citizen."

Evers was a natural born citizen, Gassner was a naturalized citizen born in Austrian. Alfred Gassner started his career with the Albatross Flugzeugwerke during WW I. In America he was with the Fokker Aircraft Corporation of America. He became chief engineer in 1928 and designed the F-11A. When General Motors took over in 1931 Gassner left for Fairchild where he was responsible for designing the very advanced F 91. Alfred Gassner was responsible for the AT-21A "Gunner" with it's radical Duramold structure. In 1943 he left Fairchid and founded a consulting firm Gassner Associates, Inc. He designed the track type landing gear for the EC-82A for Fairchild in 1947. During the 1950s Harry Kahn joined the firm and in 1958 he took over and changed the name to Harry Khan Associates, Inc. In 1989 the firm was purchased by two employees and is in business today. It is a DoD contractor, which in a volital industry, proudly notes it has been in business since founded by Alfred Gassner in 1943. http://harrykahn.com

Mark Lincoln (talk) 23:19, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

It appears the Smithsonian might not be considered a valid source for the airplanes in it's collection so here is another source:

"Oddly enough, two Americans, Alfred Gassner and W. H. Evers were the principal designers. Gassner, an Austrian by birth, worked for several major firms including Aviatik, American Fokker, and Fairchild before joining Junkers in 1935. Later he was chief engineer at the Duramold firm that created the material used in the Hughes flying boat. Less is known about Evers’ subsequent career. Both men returned to the U.S. after their initial work on the Ju 88." - Flight Journal Aug 2015 pg 43"

Mark Lincoln (talk) 01:03, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

References

Specification

The A4 spec is overladen with its armamanent, it needs trimming. perhaps the detail would be better in the main text.GraemeLeggett (talk) 15:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Naming - "88"

Does anyone know why it was called the Ju 88? Was there and 86, and 86, and so on? In the Third Reich, it was, apparently, a custom to use "88" for "Heil Hitler," the letter H being the eighth in the Alphabet. Sudfa —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sudfa (talk • contribs) 06:10, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

The other Junkers designs are easily checked. Here's the wiki entry on the Ju 86. http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Junkers_Ju_86 Factory design numbers were sequential; the Stuka was the Ju 87.

~~B Tillman Sep 3, 2010

What is the Junkers Ju 88 made off?

Wood? Aluminum? Tin foil? It would be nice to know this. 75.92.7.61 (talk) 09:55, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Mainly steel and aluminum, like most aircraft of the era. ~~B Tillman Sep 3, 2010

American engineers?

So who were the American aviation engineers mentioned in the lead and not covered in the article's text?

Georgejdorner (talk) 16:07, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

de wiki mentions Alfred Gassner and Heinrich Evers, formerly working for Fairchild. Sentence/section not referenced though but if that's true they could hardly be called "american aviation engineers". I'd remove that misleading statement. --Denniss (talk) 17:01, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

WP:DE:Ju88 says that Gassner and Evers were formerly _employed_ by Fairchild. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.180.224.80 (talk) 13:03, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how Denniss decides that Gassner and Evers weren't "American aviation engineers". While I haven't been able to chase down Evers, Gassner is mentioned in another Wikipedia article as the designer of the Fairchild 91 in 1935 and a tracked undercarriage for the C-82 Packet in 1947.

http://www.c82packet.com/variants.html

It appears that Gassner was seconded by Fairchild to Germany to advise Junkers on stressed skin construction.

http://www.uboat.net/technical/ju88.htm

Plaasjaapie (talk) 12:43, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

[1] mentions both as abgeworben von (headhunted from?) Fairchild. Glassner is stated as Austrian citizen and Evers as German with additional US citizenship. Doesn't sound enough to call them american engineers (implies US citizens going to work in nazi germany) but engineers formerly working for Fairchild. Impossible to say more without background info about the two. --

Denniss (talk) 13:27, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Come 1942, Alfred A Gassner is working for the Duramold Aircraft Corporation Journal of Aeronuatical Sciences paper. Tantalizing his name (and background) might be on this membership list (paid access only). GraemeLeggett (talk) 16:37, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Junkers – Who is Who? "G" has an unreferenced bio, according to which he started with Austrian Aviatik, then American Fokker, Fairchild, Junkers ("detail design" assistance), Saab, (Dutch?) Fokker and back to the States.GraemeLeggett (talk) 16:46, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Duramold Aircraft Corporation was set up by Fairchild to develop the technology to make the AT-21 using the plastic bonded wood technique. There was a brief aluminum shortage in early WW II. Saab is a Swedish firm. It is still naming world-class fighters today.Mark Lincoln (talk) 00:14, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

I know nothing of Heinrich Evers, but Alfred Gassner was my uncle, and I know a fair amount of his aviation history. He was originally Austrian, but naturalized to citizenship in the US. In the late 1920s he worked for Tony Fokker at General Aviation, then became Chief Engineer of Fairchild Aircraft in Dundalk (near Baltimore). When Fairchild moved to Hagerstown, Maryland in 1936, he yielded that post to my father (who remained Chief Engineer of Fairchild until leaving in 1952 to form an aircraft company that bore his name, later absorbed by the Vitro Corporation). Gassner not only designed the Fairchild 91 but also had a significant hand in the development of several other Fairchild aircraft, including the F-24 (although that model was initiated as a Kreider-Reasoner design). He left the aircraft company and became sort of an international aviation consultant (with an office in New York City) on stressed skins and other modern developments, went to Europe to design the JU-88 for Junkers, then returned to the United States where he became a consultant to Sherman Fairchild all during the war. After the war, he designed the Pantobase landing gear for the Fairchild C-82, and did a good deal of work for the Budd company, designing rail cars. He died in the late 50s in New York.Athieblot (talk) 16:00, 18 May 2016 (UTC)Athieblot (talk) 16:01, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

All well and good but Wikipedia uses published sources exclusively so unless you can provide a published source supporting this, it can't be used - also was he the chief engineer on the Ju 88 or just one of the many engineers working on it? Regardless,

Albert Gassner left Fairchild in 1943 to found Gassner Associates, Inc.He did the Ju-88 job during the period when he was with Fairchild. Gassner Associates became Harry Kahn Associates after Albert Gassner's death in 1958 and remains in business today. Evers and Gassner did the preliminary design on the Ju.-88. They are credited with the design.Mark Lincoln (talk) 00:14, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

if he wasn't born in the US I wouldn't describe him in the Ju 88 page as an American engineer, but as being from where he was born. On his own page, that information should be included, but not here. - NiD.29 (talk) 18:59, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Will you believe The Smithsonian? "The Ju-88 design originated in 1935, as part of the Luftwaffe's goal of equipping its growing inventory with a fast medium bomber. The original design was by W.H. Evers and Alfred Gassner, who was an American citizen." http://collections.si.edu/search/results.htm?print=yes&q=nasm_A19600325000 Actually they were both American citizens, Gassner was a naturalized former Austrian. He had a long career starting with Albatross Flugzeugwerke during WW I and continuing in America with the Fokker Aircraft Corporation of America, where he became Chief Engineer. He eventually moved to Fairchild where he designed the advanced F 91 and other airplanes. He ended his career as a consultant/contractor.

W.H. Evers has left even less of a trail than Gassner.

The exact circumstances of their employment by Junkers is a bit obscure, perhaps obfuscated. It appears to have been a matter of corporate and political connections, a pressing need for engineers who could speak German in Germany, and the mid-Depression slump in the US aircraft industry. They both returned to their American employers after the Ju-88 project.

Mark Lincoln (talk) 23:51, 20 June 2016 (UTC)

Another source as someone seems to object to the smithsonian Institution:

"Oddly enough, two Americans, Alfred Gassner and W. H. Evers were the principal designers. Gassner, an Austrian by birth, worked for several major firms including Aviatik, American Fokker, and Fairchild before joining Junkers in 1935. Later he was chief engineer at the Duramold firm that created the material used in the Hughes flying boat. Less is known about Evers’ subsequent career. Both men returned to the U.S. after their initial work on the Ju 88." - Flight Journal Aug 2015 pg 43

Mark Lincoln (talk) 01:06, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Number built ?

"...more than 16,000 Ju 88s were built..." "Number built 15,183". Huh ? Rcbutcher (talk) 12:03, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

According to Bundesarchive data posted at german wiki it's rather 15k or slightly below, that's without destroyed/written-off a/c prior to acceptance. USAAF postwar evaluation showed 14.300 until 12/44. --Denniss (talk) 14:47, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Mädchen für Alles?

I'm calling for a citation on the line: "... Affectionately known as "The Maid of all Work" (Mädchen für Alles)... ". While the phrase certainly exists (and it as also a famour film from the period), the only context I have ever seen it used in relation to the Ju 88 is on this Wikipedia page and derivatives thereof. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.167.170.68 (talk) 20:12, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Someone added the reference: http://www.banater-berglanddeutsche.de/content/pdftext/bbd138.pdf . Thank you. However, this confirms my reservations about this nickname. The reference refers to the Ju 52 (not Ju 88). On researching this further, I can find multiple references to the Ju 52 being known as "Das Mädchen für Alles" but nothing for the Ju 88 being known as such. (I have found an alternative suggestion that the Ju 88 was known as the "Dreifinger", but have no historical reference to back this up.) In any case, I continue to believe that the attribution of "Mädchen für Alles" to the Ju 88 is a mistake and have therefore removed that sentence from the aticle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.167.170.13 (talk) 01:46, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Eastern Front section

"KG 76 and KG 77 reported the loss of a further four Ju 88s, of which 12 were 100% destroyed." That makes no sense whatsoever. Twelve out of four Ju 88s were destroyed? That's not 100% but 300%... whoever has access to the source please check. --Stizzleswick (talk) 08:13, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

May be connected to the prior sentence with 18 losses reported, this makes 22 of which 12 were total losses. --Denniss (talk) 11:02, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

OK, I can see that. The current wording is, however, confusing. --Stizzleswick (talk) 07:17, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

The American Engineers resolved.

The tale of the "American Engineers is difficult to pursue. Ernst Zindel was Chief Designer at Junkers from 1922 to at least January 1936 when design of the Ju 88 started. He was closely associated with Hugo Junkers, who was a pacifist and socialist who was despised by the Nazis. Im 1933 the Nazis nationalized Junkers, forced Hugo Junkers out and put him under house arrest. He died in 1935 and his wife was forced to sell his stock and patents. It seems Zindel faded from the record soon after. Perhaps this is why many sources cite Evers & Gassner as the designers of the Ju 88. It appears that Evers and Gassner were recruited by the immensely able and well connected both within Junkers and with the Nazis, Heinrich Koppenberg. (http://www.geocities.ws/hjunkers/ju_who_e.htm & https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Koppenberg) After the Ju 88 job Gassner returned to Fairchild while Evers stayed with Junkers.

Evers turned out to be an interesting man. Emigrating to the US to get a start in the automobile industry he met Glenn Curtiss who inspired his interest in aviation. Returning to Germany he soloed in 1910 in an airplane he designed and built. Evers held F.I.A license #190. His airplane company, Nordwestdeutsche Flugzeugwerke, Evers & Co., GmbH, failed. He returned to America and became a designer and flyer with the Benoist Aircraft Company and the world's first airlines, the St. Petersburg-Tampa Airboat Line. (http://www.earlyaviators.com/eevers.htm & http://lrs.ed.uiuc.edu/students/yhuang3/winged-3.htm) At the start of WW I he attempted to return to Germany, was intercepted and interned in Switzerland until he escaped to Germany in 1917. He worked for an aircraft firm until 1924 when he returned to the US and went to work for Fokker Aircraft Company of America where he became associated with Gassner. (http://www.geocities.ws/hjunkers/ju_who_e.htm). I have not established that in fact Evers was an American citizen so in my edit I made it clear Gassner was and left open that detail about the two engineers from America. Evers remained with Junkers while Gassner went home. What ever Koppengerg's intrigues to get Evers and Gassner to do design for Junkers remains unknown. That he was in with the Nazis and instrumental in the build up of the German aviation industry is very clear. (http://www.smh-hq.org/jmh/jmhvols/704.html & http://www.cairn.info/zen.php?ID_ARTICLE=CHA_042_0130 & www.leaders-reich.co.uk/2015/03/heinrich-koppenberg.html & http://web.archive.org/web/20091027072832/http://www.geocities.com/hjunkers/ju_who_k.htm)

Ernst Zindel clearly was in charge when the initial design of the Ju 88 began but is abundantly clear Evers & Gassner were recruited for the job by an influential Nazi and Junkers executive and that they were essential to the design.

Mark Lincoln (talk) 21:31, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Gassner remained close to Fairchild. In 1954 he was made General Manager of the new "Kinetics" Division. in 1956 Fairchild Engine & Airplane Corp. rewarded it's General Manager Engine Division, A.A. Gassner a $20,000 bonus (big money back then).

An interesting article in Aviation Week's 1 Dec, 1935 "Aviation People" column had an entry (with a bullet & photo) "Alfred A. Gassner" which explained that he "has taken two month's leave of absence from his post as chief engineer of the military and transport division of Fairchild Aircraft Corporation in order to act in a temporary consulting capacity with Junkers in Germany."

Janowicz, in Junkers Ju 88 vol. I says "It is of interest to note that work on the Schnellbomber was carried out with the participation of Wilhelm Heinrich Evers, who had previously worked in the US and an American civilian, Alfred Gassner, who did not return to Germany after his holiday leave in 1936. "

Somehow a "temporary" two months turned into a year! Followed by "Gassner, who did not return to Germany after his holiday leave in 1936." He must have been expected to return which raises the question of wether he intended to return when he left Germany.

Having defined and documented the circumstances of how Mr. Gassner became involved the design of the Ju 88, and having established that top executive & Nazi insider Koppenberg recruited Evers; and that Evers remained in Germany as a Junkers employee while Gassner overstayed his holiday break and remained safe at home. I think the issue of their involvement in the design of the Ju 88 is closed.

It turns out the common wisdom, that they were both Americans, and that they both returned to America, and that they (with no mention of Zindel) designed the Ju 88 is a bit in error.

Mark Lincoln (talk) 18:30, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

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