Talk:Juliano Mer-Khamis

Israeli Palestinian...?

It was written that he was an "Israeli Palestinian" (an article that doesn't exist...). I don't think there's a difference between "Israeli Palestinian" and "Arab citizens of Israel" (seeing how the latter are of Palestinian descent, and currently reside within the State of Israel) - so I changed it to read he was an "Arab citizen of Israel" (i.e. Israeli Arab). — Preceding unsigned comment added by MonkWork (talk • contribs) 14:44, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

He described himself as 100% Palestinian and 100% Jewish so to describe him as anything other than Jewish-Palestinian is inacurate and wrong. It is also inacurate and wrong to call his father Arab-Israeli. He was a Palestinian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.186.21 (talk) 00:52, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Israeli Arab actor?

Mr. Mer-Khamis was certainly an Arab - his father was Arab. But he was ALSO a Jew - his mother was Jewish. Therefore he is an Israeli Arab-Jew. Anything else is untruthful. (Many on both sides say there is no such thing. Mr. Mer-Khamis proves otherwise. I am not of the opinion that people are half anything. Mr. Mer-Khamis was IMO wholly Arab, and wholly Jewish. He may have been murdered because he was Jewish. If so, then the murderers, by their hate, and to their horror, prove his Jewishness.)

And to the contributor above, I agree with his change, but let me be clear. "Israeli Palestinian" is an incorrect term for Israeli Arab, and for the most part, does not exist. The word "Palestinian" referring to Arabs is a political construction from the 1960's, and is bound with PLO terror. In 1948 "Palestinian" meant Jewish. So "of Palestinian descent" is a meaningless phrase that is not historically accurate. The Arabs of the Israel and the Arabs of the West Bank (or of Gaza) are politically distinguishable and have for the most part very different political aspirations. Example: If return of the 1948 Arab refugees to their ancestral homeland is the central Palestinian political goal, then the Arabs of Israel are already home. I acknowledge that people can call themselves whatever they wish. Israeli Arabs for the most part call themselves that, freely, and for the most part, proudly. Therefore it is the right name. Oneye1i (talk) 18:32, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

How about, He was an Israeli Arab Palestinian Jewish Christian actor, director, filmmaker, and political activist. Did we miss anything?—Biosketch (talk) 20:38, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I have added a description of Juliano as a Palestinian Jew, with a link to a radio interview in which he described himself as "100 percent Palestinian and 100 percent Jewish". RolandR (talk) 22:09, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

What is the convention for describing an individual's racial/national/ethnic/religious identity – is it to rely on his own self-characterization or on how official documents and reports characterize him?—Biosketch (talk) 11:59, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

RfC: Israeli or "Palestinian Jew"

A user RolandR (who incidentally I must have offended somehow as he has been reverting all my edits ever since I joined) is trying to add the bizarre, unrecognized, revisionist, and activist term "Palestinian Jewish" as this person's nationality, as opposed to Israeli - based on his interpretation of a radio interview where he called himself "100% Palestinian and 100% Jewish" (a statement which I think you will all agree is open to interpretation). AFolkSingersBeard (talk) 10:25, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Don't take it personally if an editor reverts a bunch of your contributions. Posting a comment here at the Discussion is a good way to interact and see what the disagreement is about exactly. I haven't gone through your history, but my impression is that maybe you're trying to edit the article on the basis of what you perceive to be common sense, when what Wikipedia strives for is verifiability. If there are sources that dispute Mer-Khamis's characterization as a "Palestinian Jew," please cite them here at the Discussion page so we can all evaluate them and try to reach a consensus.—Biosketch (talk) 10:57, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll try not to take it personally - but he continues to revert everything I do, without discussion. It's beyond common sense - type his name into Google and you come up with: "Israeli actor" (Haaretz), [1], "Israeli peace activist" (Guardian) [2], "Arab Israeli actor" (BBC), [3], "Israeli Actor And Activist" (Reuters), [4], etc. AFolkSingersBeard (talk) 11:11, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

There he goes again. Three reverts - of course not enough to breach 3RR. Very clever. AFolkSingersBeard (talk) 11:57, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

You've gotta love the thought processes going on here: "He's an Israeli I like... therefore, screw reality, I'm just going to deny he's Israeli!" :-D AFolkSingersBeard (talk) 13:00, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Ah good work Rolandr, now he's an actor "of Israeli Jewish and Palestinian Arab origin", but no nationality. Does that make Obama a President "of Kenyan and Western European origin" or Sarkozy a President "of Hungarian Jewish, Hungarian Protestant, and Greek Catholic origin" sans nationality too? Lulz. I guess Wikipedia readers will have to go somewhere else to find out what passport he holds! You couldn't make this stuff up. AFolkSingersBeard (talk) 13:27, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Again, let's endeavor to keep the remarks strictly in relation to content and not about the editors. Having read the article more carefully in consideration of the comments above, there are indeed problems with some of the labels being used to characterize the Mer-Khamises. It shouldn't matter one way or the other how these people are labeled, as long as the labels are being applied per reliable sources. AFolkSingersBeard (talk · contribs)'s sources above are reliable, so unless there are other RSes that conflict with those, the labels should be reworded accordingly. Since this is a WP:1RR article, and contributors have already exceeded what that restriction allows, I'll restrain myself from making any changes to the lead myself, and hopefully we can resolve the dispute like gentlemen here.—Biosketch (talk) 14:52, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Juliano described himself both as an Israeli and as a Palestinian. The Freedom Theatre, which he founded, and where he was murdered, mourns him as a "Palestinian thinker".[5]. Agence France-Presse describes him as "Israeli-Palestinian".[6] So does Associated Press [7] and the Sydney Morning Herald.[8] The Scotsman calls him "Jewish-Palestinian".[9] Plenty of reliable sources descrribe him as a Palestinian, just as plenty describe him as an Israeli. I think the article needs to reflect both, as well as Juliano's own statement that he was "100% Palestinian and 100% Jewish". RolandR (talk) 16:39, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

At Juliano's funeral, the governor of Jenin described him as a "Palestinian citizen of Israeli origin".[10] Perhaps that is the form of words we should use. RolandR (talk) 16:56, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

This is why in the discussion above this one I asked what the convention is for biographical articles on Wikipedia. Do we label people's race, ethnicity and nationality based on how the subject saw himself, or do we rely on how independent third-party sources do it? I don't have enough experience to know, but I'm sure it's a question that's come up for Chomsky and Marx and Slash and Lenny Kravitz, whose Jewish identity doesn't overlap neatly with their Jewish ancestry. Also interesting to consider is Ahmed Tibi. The lead calls him "an Arab-Israeli politician," only mentioning his Palestinian self-definition in the last sentence. The words of the Jenin mayor, while spoken in earnest, belong in the body of the article, not in the lead. It's POV and there isn't such a thing as a "Palestinian citizen" in the formal sense.

• BBC: "Arab Israeli actor"; "The son of a Jewish Israeli mother and a Palestinian Christian father."
• Reuters: "well-known Israeli actor"; "born in the Israeli-Arab city of Nazareth to a Jewish-Israeli mother and an Israeli-Arab Christian father."
• Haaretz: "Israeli actor"; "Mer-Khamis' mother, Arna Mer, was an Israeli Jewish activist for Palestinian rights. His father, Saliba Khamis, was a Christian Palestinian. Mer-Khamis was born and raised in Nazareth."
• Guardian: "Israeli peace activist"; "the son of an Israeli-Jewish mother and a Palestinian-Arab father."←This is a letter, not a report.
• AFP: "Israeli-Palestinian theater director"; "born of Jewish and Arab parents."
• AP: "Palestinians Actor Killed." (What does mean, though?)
• Sydney Morning Herald: "Israeli-Palestinian actor."
• Scotsman: "Jewish-Palestinian founder."
• Guardian: "Palestinian-Israeli" - This was the newspapers obituary - http://www.guardian.co.uk/stage/2011/apr/11/juliano-mer-khamis-obituary

I frankly don't know how to reconcile all these labels.—Biosketch (talk) 19:55, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

That many labels suggests that others have found it difficult to work out what he was. I wonder if there are actually three distinct issues here - ethnicity, citizenship and religious identity. He was clearly an Israeli citizen; he was clearly of Jewish-Arab ethnicity; but what was his religious identity? Prioryman (talk) 20:05, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I cannot see why we are endevouring to find (or invent) a particular label to pin on him and believe that the article, as it currently stands in this respect, is factually correct and clearly shows the various factors that make up this complex character. Davshul (talk) 07:05, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 3 December 2011

Please add this text to the section of Mer-Khamis' assassination.

On April 19, 2011 the International Middle East Media Center reported <ref>{{cite web|title=Killer Of Israeli-Palestinian Director Still At Large|url=http://www.imemc.org/article/61090|publisher=International Middle East Media Center|accessdate=19 April 2011}}</ref> that

A Palestinian security official stated Tuesday that the murderer of Israeli-Palestinian director, Juliano Mer-Khamis, is still at large as DNA tests exonerated a suspect who was detained by the security forces following the murder.

Markolopa (talk) 23:12, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Done. :) If you'd like any further help, contact me on my user talk page. You might instead want to put a {{help me}} template up on your own user talk, or put the {{edit semi-protected}} template back up on this page and either way someone will be along to help you. :)

Edit request on 5 April 2012

The article mentions that he was a 'activist'. It mentions that he's married to an 'activist' (I assume active for the same cause); however, no mention is made regarding what he was an activist for. I don't know anything about the guy (I saw his name under 5 April article) - for those of you who DO know his story (history, I made a pun), I wonder if his beliefs regarding his activism should be noted/included (i.e. what was he working towards), of if 'activism' should be removed from the article. Thnk you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.136.15.149 (talk) 17:08, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Adam Schatz and the London Review of Books

The London Review of Books is not a newspaper. It is not a scholarly source. It is a literary magazine that publishes essays. A subjective obituary published as an essay is not a reliable source for the things shown in this article. I'm deleting all the Adam Schatz-based assertions as unencyclopedic. Chicago Style (without pants) (talk) 01:47, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

And I have restored the reliably sourced information. Since, as you know, you are a sockpuppet of a topic banned/blocked editor your opinion on this or any issue is irrelevant here. Sean.hoyland - talk 08:17, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

The assertions of a literary critic writing an obituary about a figure the author idolizes is not a reliable source. Chicago Style (without pants) (talk) 04:07, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Please point to the reliable sources for your factual assertions above, and to the policy which confirms your judgement of the reliability of Schatz. RolandR (talk)

I looked for any other sources to back up the claims and there aren't any. Although only one source is needed, contentious information is best weighted and verified by multiple sources. Take for example the claim that "On one occasion while his squad was engaged in firing practice, a shoulder missile aimed at a donkey missed, killing instead a 12 year old girl sitting astride it." Let's imagine this for a second. A military unit decides to do bazooka practice with a donkey (that has a girl sitting on it). They miss the donkey and kill the girl instead. I'll admit that I don't know much about bazookas, but this entire scenario seems improbable. I looked for evidence of this event, and found only the repeated hearsay of a politically-bias writer writing in an obituary full of emotional material. So it goes. CSWP1 (talk) 01:11, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Roland, you removed content from two different pages because they were high school textbooks, according to you they aren't RS. I'm sure that this had nothing to do with defending your beloved Marxists. An obituary in the London Review of Books by a partisan non-academic who cites no sources for his allegations is not RS for most of the things its used on this page for. It isn't OR to ask for another, more reliable source for that crazy donkey story. But let's talk about the LRB itself. It publishes essays. The essays are not necessarily reflections of the publications views, and it doesn't require the same sort of fact checking as an academic journal or even a newspaper. CSWP1 (talk) 02:48, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

We don't insist that reliable sources themselves use what we would consider to be reliable sources. If another reliable source differs, then we could note this. If several reliable sources state one thing, while another differs, we would usually go with the majority. But in this case, there is no reliable source challenging Katz's report, only your belief that the story "seems improbable". I'm sorry, but your own impression is not a reliable source. If and when you find such a source which challenges Schatz, please bring it here and we can discuss it and its appropriateness. Until then, we should keep the reliably sourced statement. RolandR (talk) 13:29, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

All you've done here is insist it is an RS, without giving a reason why. A person's essay is not enough to make such bold claims. Strong statements (the IDF uses donkeys with little girls riding on them for bazooka practice) require strong sourcing, and an obituary aint it. CSWP1 (talk) 03:10, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

The London Review of Books isnt a reliable source? Since when? This isnt some random person, Adam Shatz is a contributing editor of LRB and a former literary editor at The Nation. I'm restoring the material, if you want to challenge a long standing piece of this article on the basis of its sourcing theres a place for thta. nableezy - 03:33, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

LRB publishes essays. It doesn't fact-check them. Essays are the author's opinions. Of course LRB is a prestigious publication, but it isn't necessarily trustworthy in an encyclopedic sense. If there is a WP policy that says "LRB is a faultless source" please let me know. Last I checked, each source has to be evaluated for its validity to the claim it is making. You can't just say "everything this magazine prints is RS." The eulogy cited is by a demonstrably biased author making claims that aren't backed up by any news or academic sources. CSWP1 (talk) 13:45, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Which is why the material is attributed, in-text, to Adam Schatz. And stop removing other peoples comments, you've been here long enough to know not to do that. nableezy - 19:01, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

It is not attributed to Adam Schatz in the text. It is stated as a fact. Sourcing shouldn't be about finding something that says what you want said. Additionally, two editors and a banned bully does not make a consensus. CSWP1 (talk) 01:43, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, you're right. But done, attributed. nableezy - 04:48, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

But long standing text by definition has consensus, see WP:EDITCONSENSUS. And you should generally inform other active participants of an RS/N discussion, as in WP:RSN#Obituaries as reliable sources. nableezy - 04:50, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

But thanks for opening that, looks like it got us another source for this, as well as confirming the reliability of the LRB and of Shatz. nableezy - 19:18, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Consensus hasn't been reached in the board, yet. Additionally, the new source has Mer-Khamis telling a different version of events, far less sensational than the one Shatz tells after the man's death. Certainly it is better to go by the new source. The edit RolandR just made confusingly uses both versions as sources, as if they are the same. CSWP1 (talk) 00:29, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

The given text, which years after I used it (stable) is now contested, can of course be challenged and changed when a new consensus emerges. As it stands it is inadequate, and in any case is getting editors focused on trivia. The solution is quite simple, and, along with new sources on his life, I have changed it to reflect both Schatz and the WRMEA source.

Mer-Khamis said that while his squad was engaged in firing practice, a shoulder missile accidentally killed a young girl on a donkey. Mer-Khamis continued that a load of explosives was left on the donkey to cover the incident-

This was typical double-speak. The subject of the verb ‘to kill’ is a missile, not a person. In both sources the subject of kill is IDF ‘soldier(s)’. Both reports concur that the girl was killed by accident, and the target was a donkey.

Adam Schatz:

By the time Juliano was stationed there, it had evolved into a concrete slum where more than ten thousand people were squeezed into a space not much bigger than five hundred square metres. If a soldier killed an old woman or a child by accident a weapon would be planted on the corpse: Juliano’s job was to carry the bag with the weapons. One night they were trying out new shoulder-fired missiles. They shot at a donkey, but instead killed the 12-year-old girl who was sitting on it. Explosives from the black bag were laid on top of the donkey. LRB

WRMEA

Mer-Khamis did serve in the Israeli army as a commando. He told about a time when he was 18, when in the course of practicing firing shoulder missiles in Jenin, soldiers accidentally shot dead a 12-year-old girl sitting on a donkey. To cover the incident, the soldiers put explosives inside the donkey. In such a way, he added, Israel can create any charges they want.

The difference is piddling. This is much ado about nothing, and there is much more that demands editorial work than this bickering bullshit.Nishidani (talk) 15:18, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 October 2014

Hi, I founded The Freedom Theatre together with Juliano Mer Khamis and lived and worked along his side for four years. I shortly after he was assassinated took over the leadership of te theatre. There's many mistakes in the text, for one thing my name and identity is wrong. For one thing the article of Adam Schatz is referred to on many occasions, although that article of full of hear-say and non-factual information. It has been pointed out to London of Review of Books on a number of occasions. They have acknowledged our concerns but referred to the integrity of the journalist and rejected our listed factual mistakes in the article. References to Adam Schatz article should be made with great care, and several of the mistakes we raised with LRB is included in the Wiki article. It is also mentioned "Yusuf Sweitat and Nidal al-Jabali, became suicide bombers in October 2001" which is wrong, it should correctly be written "committed a suicide attack because they did not bomb themselves but carried out a road side shooting. Although civilians were the victims, the difference is relevant. I addition, at the end it is written that Juliano founded "the theatre" this needs a lot of elaboration and a link to a separate article about The Freedom Theatre that was founded in 2006, registered first as a Swedish Foundation and later that year as a Palestinian NGO. It is easy to misinterpret the information in the article and think that the work that Arna, Juliano's mother, started in the 80's continued and that the rpoject she started and The Freedom Theatre is the same organisation. The Care and Learning project ended around the mid-90's and The Freedom Theatre was founded in 2006, with similarities but also fundamentally different in character. I think I can contribute a lot to the article with my detailed knowledge of the situation. Jonatan.stanczak (talk) 04:57, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Not done: We have no idea who you actually are, but that doesn't really matter, as you have not cited any reliable sources to back up your request. Your "memory" or "knowledge" is not acceptable to Wikipedia, as it is not verifiable. Furthermore, we cannot accept your comments about the reliability of the reference currently being used, unless the criticisms also appear in multiple reliable, independent sources. - Arjayay (talk) 12:43, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Variant spellings of assassin's name

The article currently describes Mer-Khamis's killer as been surnamed both Qaniri and Qamiri. Does someone know which is correct? Tigercompanion25 (talk) 04:16, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

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factual correction

I see there's a restriction on editing the article, so i would appreciate if someone can correct the error: it says that Juliano's father belonged to the Eastern Orthodox Christian church. This is factually not true. He was a Protestant, belonging to the Anglican church. I don't have any source for this other than the fact that i am related to him, and he is buried in the Anglican cemetery in Haifa.

khulud — Preceding unsigned comment added by Balqis1975 (talk • contribs) 01:00, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Protected?

Why is this article protected? There are obvious nonsensical faults with the article and it is impossible to correct them (actually delete would be the only logical choice)

--Veltz 16:06, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Like all articles relating to the Palestine-Israel conflict, this article has been protected to prevent unregistered accounts, and registered accounts less than one month old and with fewer than 500 edits from editing the article. This was necessary because of constant disruption of these articles. If you see anything that you think needs correcting, you can make a request on this talk page, where an experienced editor can evaluate the request and if appropriate edit the article. But we cannot act on vague assertions of "nonsensical faults" - you will need to specify what is wrong, and how it might be corrected. RolandR (talk) 16:32, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I could find one mention of Sputnik outside of the English Wikipedia but none for Khamas (which is the name of the organization controlling Gaza) in this part "...He was called Sputnik Khamas at birth...", Please change to Khamis, I'll read the article fully when I have the time and see if there are other oddities

--Veltz 22:24, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

This was a simple typo, which I have corrected. But I see nothing which is "nonsensical" or which needs to be deleted. RolandR (talk) 16:52, 16 April 2021 (UTC)