Talk:Julian Carroll

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Julian Carroll/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: hamiltonstone (talk) 22:25, 31 March 2010 (UTC) The text is generally well written, neutral and appropriately referenced. The references really need two subheads, such as "notes" and "bibliography", rather than having the biblio just run on from the end of the numbered notes. The fact that the only portrait (and only picture) in the rticle is actually of someone else is somewhat confusing. It might be clarified by at least changing the image caption to say something like "Wendell Ford. His election to..."

• This article's biggest problem may be the main source used: Conn's book. I looked at the publisher, which is an imprint or subsidiary of the Baker Publishing Group, which says of itself "Baker Publishing Group publishes high-quality writings that represent historic Christianity and serve the diverse interests and concerns of evangelical readers." It is certainly not a scholarly press, nor in some respects a particularly neutral one, and I would welcome the nominator's view about why this source is reliable.

• I was concerned about this, but I did not find the book particularly POV when I read it. I'm used to using sources from the 19th and early 20th centuries where authors often laud the subject with flowery praise, so I feel like I'm pretty good at weeding that kind of thing out. As far as I can tell, this is the only biography of Carroll that has ever been written. Eliminating it as a source would remove much of the information from the article, particularly the details of his early life. Are there particular passages cited to this source that you are concerned about?

• It was the para about behaviour in the chamber that raised my concerns. I guess it made me wonder whether the bio was a bit too favourable towards, or uncritical of, Carroll, presumably because he is a christian whom the author / publisher wishes to present as a role model. But if you are familiar with the range of sources and it looks OK to you, then good. I imagine this would raise itself as an issue at FAC if ever you took this piece there. Cheers, hamiltonstone (talk) 11:44, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

• You may be right about the issue being raised at FAC, but I'm not sure whether I'll take it there or not. Regardless, I'm confident that the major particulars are probably correct on this. Just a few years later, the Operation Boptrot scandal sent some of Kentucky's legislators to prison, so proper etiquette probably wasn't high on the priority list in the General Assembly. Plus, I'm thinking the complimentary quote from a Republican legislator probably has to be from the record of the Assembly's proceedings, although I'm not sure how to access those. Acdixon ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 17:12, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

• The article does not state what country we are talking about.

• Fixed.

• Lead: "plagued his term in office..." - makes it sound like they caused his political career problems, but then the sentence goes on to say "...leading to better safety practices and stricter law enforcement", which implies he made a policy success out of disasters not of his own making. I would therefore suggest just "during his term of office..." or something similar.

• Fixed.

• "Carroll left office under the cloud of an investigation of his administration and that of his predecessor ..." I don't know the solution, but this phrase is cumbersome, and possibly not grammatical (I couldn't decide!)

• Yeah, I wasn't fond of it when I wrote it. I've reworded a little now. See if that helps.

• "opened a car garage" (linked to Automobile repair shop). What other sort of garage is there other than a car one? Or just call it a car repair business.

• Done.

• The first para of the political career section appears to only have a cite towards the end. Is this all from Conn? Does anyone else verify that this was what the Kentucky legislature was like?

• This is all from Conn. I've not found any other source to confirm it, but my access to news article archives don't go back that far.

• "agreed to make the race" - have never heard this expression before.

• I've run across it several times in expanding political articles, but I've changed it to something a little more universal.

• "and ripped the sitting governor for not "doing something about it" - have never heard of this use of the word "ripped". What is meant?

• Changed to "criticized".

Will come back to this. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:25, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your review. There may still be some things you need me to address. If so, let me know. I may be off-wiki tomorrow through the weekend, but I'll try to get back to your comments soon. Acdixon ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 15:01, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Resuming

• "With considerable experience in the General Assembly, first as Speaker of the House, and later as lieutenant governor, when he presided over the Kentucky Senate, Carroll exercised a great deal of control over the proceedings of the legislature." There's something wrong here. I think there is a surplus comma (or two), but I'm not sure. Is this what is meant: "With considerable experience in the General Assembly, first as Speaker of the House and later as lieutenant governor, Carroll exercised a great deal of control over the proceedings of the legislature when he presided over the Kentucky Senate."

I think that's it. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:42, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

• I've tried to clean this up a little now, but if it needs more, I can break it into two sentences. The point is that he was the presiding officer in both houses, but in the Senate, it was the lieutenant governor who presided. (Later, that power was stripped from the office of lieutenant governor.) Acdixon ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 17:12, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Outside comments: I was planning on grabbing this article for review when I had a bit more time (after tomorrow), but I had noticed a couple things that should be rectified:

• There are a couple of POV issues, particularly weasel words. For example, "Carroll's tenure was plagued by disasters": What does "plagued" mean? When did flooding strike Frankfort?

• As noted above, I fixed the "plagued" issue. As for the flooding in Frankfort, I wish I knew. The author gives no date.

• In places, I find the writing too informal (as partially noted above), such as "which had not gone for a Democrat"

• Fixed this particular instance. Let me know if there are others.

• First paragraph of Governor of Kentucky: "that also included Todd Hollenbach..." might be better worded as "against Todd Hollenbach..."

Done.

Pretty good otherwise; there are some minor prose niggles, so I may copy-edit the article after this review. Mm40 (talk) 00:10, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I would welcome your copy-edit or any additional comments. Acdixon ^{(talk • contribs • count)} 15:01, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Concluding review

All done, I've passed this at GA. Hope you'll consider doing a GA review of another article when you have the time. Cheers, hamiltonstone (talk) 22:44, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Pic?

I happened to glance at this article as a result of a home page reference to the Jackson Purchase. I happened to glance at that because I once lived in Ky. — as it happened, during Carroll's tenure as governor. First, I was surprised to see Gov. Carroll listed as a notable person from the Jackson Purchse, for two reasons: I don't believe he has a national reputation or recognition factor, and anyhow I think he's lived most of his adult life in the Bluegrass Region (Lexington and Frankfort).

Second, it's downright weird that the article includes a photo of Carroll's predecessor as governor, Wendell Ford — jokingly referred to as "Swindel Fraud" when I lived there -- but no pic. of Julian himself. I'm sure Mr. Carroll would be only too happy to supply one. Sca (talk) 15:20, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, given that the Purchase Parkway is named for him and he has the distinction of being the only governor of Kentucky born in that region, I think it's OK to list him as a notable person from there. But I think you are right that he's been in the Golden Triangle for most his adult life. As for the picture, it shouldn't surprise you to see Ford's. He was a U.S. Senator, ergo, he has a public domain picture available. Carroll, not so much. I'm sure he probably would provide one if I understood all the OTRA stuff required to verify that it had been donated. Until I do, I'm hesitant to contact him about it. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 15:17, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Aren't the official portraits public domain? They're commissioned at taxpayer expense, are property of the Commonwealth and curated by the Kentucky Department of Libraries and Archives. I have a friend at KDLA and can find out what their license is for the portraits. --Spacini (talk) 16:52, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

PS: My contact at KDLA isn't a night watchman. He's Tim Tingle, Archival Services Branch Manager. I've sent him an email and hope that he knows the answer to the public domain/creative commons license question I posed, or that he can put me in touch with someone who does know. --Spacini (talk) 16:59, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for checking; this would be a welcome addition to the 'pedia, since they could illustrate a lot of political articles. I know federally-commissioned works are PD, but not sure about state ones. If we can get something rock-solid, I'll volunteer to put them on Commons. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 17:36, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Here's the scoop from Tim Tingle. The photographs of the official Kentucky governors' portraits as listed on the KDLA web site were produced by the KDLA Office of Creative Services. As such, they are public record and therefore public domain. I sent a copy of Tim's reply to Acdixon so that it's more than my word that the KDLA photos are public domain. Repeated efforts to get a reply from the Kentucky Historical Society (which houses the governors' portraits) have gone unanswered. Both Acdixon and I have had this experience. My recommendation when uploading image files of the governors' portraits is to use the KDLA images and be certain to note that they are public domain, having been created by a state agency that has released them as such. --Spacini (talk) 17:19, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

I've uploaded the image of Paul E. Patton and submitted a pre-emptive inquiry at the copyright noticeboard to make sure all the ducks are in a row on this. Once the smoke clears there, I'll try to upload more photos from the KDLA web site as long as they specifically say they were created by the Creative Services Division. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 22:10, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

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LGBT?

Carroll is LGBT based on a single incident (request for gay sex and accusation of groping) and no declaration of his orientation from him? Methinks we need reliable sourcing for evidence beyond this incident. Also, I'd like for us to consider not using the Wikipedia for branding human beings for what all we know is a temporary behavior for a purpose we do not know. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 01:54, 12 December 2023 (UTC)