Talk:Judas Maccabeus

Pseudonym

he is jewish "Pseudonym" implies someone is trying to hide their identity, which is clearly not the case here. "Epithet" may have some unfortunate modern associations (probably because epithets like "the Hammer" aren't much seriously used in the Western world anymore), but it is the correct term.--Pharos 06:42, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Exactly, I am trying to avoid "unfortunate modern associations". BTW, let's not forget that there was no such this as surname until many-many centuries later. What else do we have: nom de guerre, nickname? ←Humus sapiens←ну? 06:53, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, which is why I removed "surname". I think most readers will understand that calling someone "the Hammer" was not meant as an insult. An epithet is definitely a kind of nickname, but it doesn't have the same connotations of use. It would also be quite anachronistic to say that some 2,000-year-old person had a nom de guerre. I really don't think "epithet" is such a bad word; might your negative impression of it have been influenced by the somewhat common Wikipedia practice of dumping offensive content in "List of X epithets"?--Pharos 07:15, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

I suppose "honorific" would work? --99.226.246.180 (talk) 02:01, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

If people say things like "Greek was the lingua franca of the ancient world", I don't see why nom de guerre would be unreasonable. -- TimNelson (talk) 06:27, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

In the Maccabeans article it states that Maccabee is "an acronym for the Biblical verse Mi kamokha ba'elim Hashem, "Who is like unto thee among the mighty, O Lord!" (Exdus 15:11)." Does it also mean hammer? Which is correct. I have no knowledge of Hebrew, so someone please help me out here...

Macabee means hammer, the idea of it being an acronym is more like a "backronym" or speculation. --99.226.246.180 (talk) 02:01, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Who says that this is the acronym? How do we know this?```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by SuperSha (talk • contribs) 01:38, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Merge proposal

There are now two articles on the same person: Judas Maccabeus and Judah Maccabee, which must be merged. Please do not remove the tag until the merge is complete. Beit Or 15:26, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Proposed move

I propose to move this page to Judah Maccabee, which appears to be a more common name in the modern English. Beit Or 20:02, 5 December 2006 (UTC)he is jewish

Judas Maccabaeus, Jonathan Maccabaeus and Simon Maccabeus seem to be the popular form both as article title and incoming links --Henrygb 21:19, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

last Charles the Hammer info

I don't really know who that man was, but he leaved about 800 years after Judah's death. If any, Charles nickname derives from Judases, not the other way around.--ArnoldPettybone (talk) 23:27, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008

Article reassessed and graded as start class. Referencing and appropriate inline citation guidelines not met. With proper referencing and inline citations, this article would easily qualify for B class if not GA. --dashiellx (talk) 19:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

name?

As it stands, the article switches back and forth between using "Judah" and "Judas." The article needs to be consistent in using one or the other. I would correct the problem myself, except I strongly favor "Judah Maccabee" to "Judas Maccabeus," and I don't want to move the article without discussion. I prefer "Judah Maccabee" on the grounds that it's closer to the original Hebrew, not to mention that it avoids any confusion betwen Judas from the Christian Bible and may be more common in modern English usage (I don't have proof of this, but it's at least more common among people I talk to). Can we get some kind of a consensus on this - which should it be and why? Aaronak (talk) 22:42, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, the title of the page is 'Judas Maccabeus', but the article starts "Judah Maccabee ...." Either change the title of the page or the lead sentence. FurrySings (talk) 01:21, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

SLF

This article is about the historical figure JUDAH MACCABEE. The article is about either YEHUDA MACCABEE or JUDAH MACABEE. The name Judas (Ὶούδας) is a Greek rendering of the Hebrew name Judah (יהודה, Yehûdâh, Hebrew for "God is thanked"). If this article is translated into greek, italian or a few other languages, the the title should stand. Seeing as though this article is written in English, to english language readers, it should reference the corresponding english language name: JUDAH. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.15.15.17 (talk) 20:37, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Suggesting move to Judah Maccabee

This article is referring to two different people. As this article is written in ENGLISH, JUDAH MACCABEE is a historical figure uses the majority of the space in this article. "Judas" is the New Testament spelling which historically refers to a different person, specifically the disciple of Jesus, Judas Iscariot. If the name Judah (with an H) is used, it is referring to the individual, military figure documented in the Old Testament. If Wikipedia is to be a reference source, there needs to be two separate articles, one JUDAH MACCABEE, the Jewish military figure. If the spelling in an english languange publication, JUDAS is used, it refers to JUDAS ISCARIOT, a different historical figure, as noted in this wikipedia article: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Judas_Iscariot. Simply two different people. If this article is to be a historial reference to the name and different iterations of the name, that should be listed in this wikipedia article here: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Judah — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.15.15.17 (talk) 20:01, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Per WP:COMMONNAME. There are also 524,000 results for "Judah Maccabee" versus 189,000 results for "Judas Maccebeus". "Judah Maccabee" also bares a stronger resemblance to the Hebrew pronunciation. I had Jewish friends and teachers, and I never heard anyone say "Judas Maccabeus". --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 19:39, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree that it should be changed. A redirect can be left on Judas Maccabeus. - Lisa (talk - contribs) 02:06, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose for the moment. Firstly you also need to search on the extra a, MaccabAeus. Secondly Google.com web searches should never be used in Rename discussions, only Google Books and Google Scholar count as WP:RS. And, bad news, sorry but Google Scholar gets 2580 for Maccabeus minus the extra a then 1850 for the aeus spelling, both with Handel excluded. Wheras Judah Maccabee gets only 686. It's not a particularly strong oppose, but the argument "bears a stronger resemblence to the Hebrew" is irrelevant here, and goes against WP:EN. What would make a more meaningful case would be to argue consistency. Cheers In ictu oculi (talk) 03:29, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Thanks. This is exactly why I asked for more opinions. I was just using Google to show what was commonplace. When you say consistency, do you mean consistency within the article? Currently, "Judah" appears more often than "Judas" within the article text. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 11:59, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi, no I meant were there any other articles about members of the Maccabee family here on Wikipedia? Seems there aren't other than Maccabees. I'm quite likely to strike through my vote, but I almost voted 'support' without bothering to check, and was quite surprised to find the Handel/Josephus spelling still more common even on Google Scholar, that's all. What does the SBL Style Book say? In ictu oculi (talk) 11:30, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Does anyone know how to contact someone who would know what the SBL Handbook of Style says? --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 14:02, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

• Move 1. Google search is often used to get a fair indication of the usage of various names. 2. The present title is Latin, which is used only in specific, limited sources. 3. "Judas" is widespread for example in relation to "Judas Iscariot", who lived in roman times, but "Judah" is more relevant in this case. 4. Compare the spelling of our article 1 Maccabees. Debresser (talk) 06:26, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

RfC – Suggested move to Judah Maccabee

At the moment, I don't feel that there aren't enough participants in the #Suggesting_move_to_Judah_Maccabee discussion in order to determine consensus. I already requested assistance from WikiProject Judaism and from WikiProject Military history, but it didn't generate enough participants. Some extra voices and some more insight would be helpful. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 14:15, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

• No view I don't think the choice of name is intrinsically significant for most people, as long as there are redirects it will allow people who are searching to find the article. I think these names are all just approximations to the sound of the name in Hebrew. I think many people will also search for Judas Maccabees - only 4,250 hits on Google but it seems historically popular in books according to GoogleNgram.--Flexdream (talk) 23:12, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
  • "Judas Maccabeus" is a Latinized version of the name, not a approximation. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 13:00, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
  • It should be left as Judas Maccabeus, the best-known form of the name. Jack1956 (talk) 12:52, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
    • I don't believe that one name is less known than the other. Since it isn't possible to determine how many people know one form of the name or the other, we use the most commonly used name per WP:COMMONNAME. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 13:27, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
• Rename per Google hits, 86,000 vs. 55,000. Responding from notice by RFC bot. ScottyBerg (talk) 18:26, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
• Keep Google books has "About 123,000 results" for the current name compared with "About 21,500 results". Rich Farmbrough, 10:10, 20 October 2011 (UTC).
  
• Check SBL - sorry I didn't see question above. The Student Supplement for The SBL Handbook of Style is at http://www.sbl-site.org/assets/pdfs/SBLHSrevised2_09.pdf I don't know if this will specifically cover latinised names - or whether the full copy of the style guide is also downloadable. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:16, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

I found a complete copy on the web. It doesn't give guidance on Latinized names - simply to use whatever is consistent with a mainstream version. I expect for the Apocrypha that means NJB, for Josephus - Whiston's version. A punctuation example mentions "Judas returned on 21 Nisan 164 B.C.E. from his trip to . . . " but that is in passing. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:26, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

• Rename Per Google hits. ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛ ^{Talk Email} 13:54, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
• Keep given the much larger number of results from Google books. Frankly, I'm more concerned with the lack of clarity in the article-- and the lack of references for whole sections as well. One example for people not familiar with the Hebrew Bible or the Christian Bible is the use of BCE to distinguish a period of time, without a wiki link to explain it. I personally found the article tedious reading at best. I'm also confused about the difference between comments here quoting Google hits vs. Google books. I'm not as qualified as I should be b/c of a lack of familiarity with these religions. --Leahtwosaints (talk) 14:24, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

BCE is now wikilinked in the article. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 15:44, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

The RfC has ended. It appears that there isn't any consensus to change the page's title. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 15:32, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Even though it's too late, I will note that Judah is the Hebrew version of a Hebrew name, to be preferred, whereas Judas has unpleasant connotations from the New Testament. WordwizardW (talk) 20:38, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

Josephus?

The article says "Judah was the third son (Josephus) of...". What does this even mean? Does 'Josephus' mean third son? If so the linked article says nothing to that effect. Is it a bizarrely placed citation? This is very confusing and it would be helpful if anyone could clear it up. -Oreo Priest ^talk 15:02, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Naming conventions on WP for the Maccabees

Please see Talk:Eleazar Avaran#Naming conventions on WP for the Maccabees. Discussion: How should the original Maccabees, the father Mattathias and his five sons, John (Johanan), Simon, Judah (Judas), Eleazar (Elazar), Jonathan be known on Wikipedia? Thank you, IZAK (talk) 11:17, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

La chevalerie de Judas Macabé

La chevalerie de Judas Macabé is a 13th century french poem by Pierre du Riés (not Pierre du Ryer, the 17th century french dramatist). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.48.192.101 (talk) 16:18, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

If that's true, you just change "dramatist" to "poem" rather than removing the content entirely. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 16:23, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Pierre du Ryer was a french dramatist, but he did not wrote La chevalerie de Judas Macabé. The author of la Chevalerie de Judas Macabé was a french clerk named Pierre du Riés, who lived in the second half of the 13th century. La chevalerie de Judas Macabé has nothing do with nationalism or the 17th century litterature. It is part of a larger medieval tradition who evolve around the christian memories of the maccabean martyrs and the figure of the Nine Worthies.198.48.192.101 (talk) 16:55, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

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Judas Maccabeus born c. 190 BC

I added, Judas Maccabeus born c. 186 BC but tweaked it to 190 BC. 2607:FB91:C1F:CDD5:494A:F53F:6838:E484 (talk) 16:43, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Where are you getting this date from? That would imply he was around 19 years old when the fighting started and 20-22 when he gained leadership of the rebels, but our sources make no such claims about his age. He coulda been born anywhere from 185 to 215 for a range of 18-48, but this is so vague as to not be worth including IMO. SnowFire (talk) 17:09, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Judas Naccabeus should have an approximate birthdate given. c. 190 BC works unless someone has a better date. 2607:FB91:C1F:CDD5:494A:F53F:6838:E484 (talk) 20:40, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Original Research template

There is an original research template on the page, but no indication of the section of the article this refers to on this talk page. Newystats (talk) 00:58, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

I've now removed the template. I don't see any indications of original research in the article. Newystats (talk) 09:57, 20 February 2024 (UTC)