Talk:Joseph (art model)

Feedback from New Page Review process

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Thank you for creating this page!

Ppt91 (talk) 19:58, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Improvements

General notes regarding possible improvements. Comments and feedback welcome.

• lead expansion to include more information about his arrival in France and later work Y
• section organization: is the current division useful? Or should it go just by years i.e. "Early career (1804-1824) and Later career (1824-1860s) based on the date he was hired at the Academy of Fine Arts with a subheading2 for the Raft of the Medusa? Y
• expansions for the later career section Y

  • his work with Théodore Chassériau and a short description of the Study for negro based on the Artforum article which is a review of Black models: from Géricault to Matisse (the one organized in Paris after Columbia University) already referenced earlier and any other relevant sources; important to discuss "body of a life model functioned as a floating signifier, assuming different meanings when inserted into different compositional contexts" (Arforum) and how in the case of Joseph that context was tied his identity as a Black man prior to and after the abolishing of slavery in 1848 Y
  • other examples: "Ethiopian eunuch receiving baptism in a painting by Abel de Pujol (1848)" and "enslaved captive being whipped in a work by Marcel Antoine Verdier (1843)" (Artforum); we should determine how these should be best addressed and any additional visual material needed for the article Y
  • late life and decline in interest (unsure about the best sources here) Y

some more sources: https://www.gazette-drouot.com/en/article/black-models/7011 and https://www.nybooks.com/online/2019/06/22/reframing-the-black-model-at-the-musee-dorsay/ (unsure how much is there about Joseph and also behind a paywall); the catalogue for the exhibition is also important, but not available online, so will need to request from library and Alhadeff, Albert. Theodore Gericault, Painting Black Bodies: Confrontations and Contradictions. United States: Taylor & Francis, 2020 also library request

courtesy ping @Netherzone (whenever you have moment, as there is no rush whatsoever) Ppt91^talk 00:03, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Stuff to address and edit:

• lead expansion; too short relative to article length Y
• more should be added about representation of Black people in French art 18th to 19th c. in the context of Joseph's modeling Y
• additional source Beunaiche, Arnaud. Je suis Joseph. N.p.: Editions Emporte-Voix, 2021, which could be useful; biographical fiction novel by a French writer from 2021 Y
• later life could use more context if possible with additional literature Y

Ppt91^talk 18:59, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Noting that a moment from the aftermath of the wreck of the French naval frigate Méduse, which ran aground off the coast of today's Mauritania on 2 July 1816 has been copied from The Raft of the Medusa with appropriate attribution included in edit summary. Ppt91^talk 18:37, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Joseph (art model)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Tamzin (talk · contribs) 06:35, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

General discussion

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

• Hi Ppt91! I'm hoping to get to this tomorrow. So far, both GA reviews I've done have been for someone who knows my style decently well, so I thought I'd ask first, is the approach at Talk:Vermont Public/GA1 one you'd be amenable toward? If not, is there an approach that would work better for you? I can't change my nitpicky ways but otherwise I'm flexible. :) -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 06:35, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

  Hi @Tamzin! Thank you for taking this on. And very thoughtful of you to check in about the approach/format; it looks great to me and I look forward to your feedback. :-) Ppt91^talk 16:56, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Ppt91: Whew okay, I got really into this! Super interesting article. And conversation fodder for the next time I see my grandmother, who's a big fan of 19th-century French art. Please don't be intimidated by the number of line items below. Almost everything, including the three Ns on the 2b check, ought to be easy fixes. Please feel free to push back against any assessments you dispute. And know that when I say something like "I would do X" or "I strongly suggest X", I mean what I say: That's advice, not something that would stand in the way of a pass. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 01:18, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Tamzin Wow, thanks so much! All are super helpful comments, and I especially appreciate your taking a close look at some of the trickier sources (like the exhibition website). I will work on fixing/addressing these and other issues you raised and will ping you when ready. Hopefully no later than Monday. :-) Ppt91^talk 04:39, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

• @Tamzin Ok, I think I've gone through all! There are a few instances where I responded with "note" although I pretty much agreed with the vast majority of your very helpful and thorough feedback. If I missed anything (or if there is anything that it seems like I may have misunderstood), I'll be happy to fix right away. Looking forward to hearing what you think. :-) And thanks again! Ppt91^talk 18:49, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Ppt91: Alright, think we're just about there! Just a few things left. Back to you. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 00:00, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Tamzin Great--I think these are all done now, but please let me know if anything is still missing. You caught a lot of small yet important details I had originally missed, so I am cautious so as not to declare anything prematurely! :-) Ppt91^talk 01:43, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Ppt91: Alright, think we're golden! This has been fun to work on. Btw, one stray thing I missed till just now, but which could go multiple ways, so I'll just leave for your consideration: We had an article once on Bona Mangangu, which was deleted in 2010. However, the article at the time was just one-sentence unsourced bio and a four-entry bibliography; by now, he may well have become notable. As such, you could redlink him, notwithstanding the normal rule against redlinking non-notable people, since consensus may have changed by now. Further, you could also make it an {{interlanguage link}}, either as {{ill|Bona Mangangu|fr}} (Bona Mangangu) or {{ill|Bona Mangangu|wd=Q892043}} (Bona Mangangu). Anyways, just a thought. Great work once again. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 02:36, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

1: Prose/MoS

• Joseph had never done Y
• Please ctrl+f all instances of ," and ." and ,' and adjust per MOS:INOROUT (may want to save this till after resolving § 2b: Citations) Y done
• The usage of "to" in the date ranges in section headings, rather than an en-dash, might go against a strict reading of MOS:DATERANGE, but it's not something I'm personally gonna complain about. Y I changed for consistency
• Saint -Domingue Y done
• the 1791 Haitian Revolution — A not-invalid way to describe it, à la "2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine", but I think 1791–1804 would be more clear. Y done
• which lasted from 1794 until 1804, before being legalized again by Napoleon — Makes it sound like the end of slavery and the re-legalization were somehow separate events. Recommend when it was legalized again. That said, this is a bit tangential, and a case could be made to move some to an {{efn}}. Y done
• The Raft of the Medusa should be linked on first reference in the body. Y done
• I would move the The Raft of the Medusa (1818 to 1819) subsection heading up by one paragraph. Y done (I was going to do it originally and I think my hesitation resulted from not wanting to leave the first subsection so short, but it does make sense)
• 1818-1819 (two instances) — Change hyphen to en-dash per DATERANGE. Y done
• during the early 19th- century (hyphen to space) Y done
• An Italian art model known as Cadamour (Man, imagine being primarily known to history for being a racist.) Y done (I know, right? And the authors of the book point out the apparent irony in that Italian models, due to the influx of Italian immigrants in the second half of the 19th century, would eventually be considered a "distinct ethnic type" and designated as "colored" by French artists... the depths of European racism are truly mind-boggling.)
• "focal point of the drama, the strongest and most perceptive of the survivors, in a sense, the 'hero of the scene.'" — Use {{' "}}. Y done
• powerful, in good health, which rises above the white bodies, survivors of the raft weakened by disease and fatigue — I would translate that quote as "rising above" here, to avoid ambiguity as to whether it's the body or health that rises. Y done
• a curator at the Louvre in Paris, where Géricault's painting is on permanent display (if that underline's too short: comma after "Paris") Y done
• c.1836 → {{c|1836}} or c. 1836 Y done
• In 1832, Joseph was hired at the l’École des Beaux-Arts de Paris, becoming one of its only three male models. (another comma after another "Paris" :P) Y done
• Peck 2019 has an author name hiding in the title Y done
• a Haitian landowner of mixed-race — either of mixed race, or a mixed-race Haitian landowner Y done
• Would Devil in Christianity or Satan be a better link for the devil? Y done (first one)
• 'There is not in France a single artist, painter or sculptor who does not know Joseph...the most handsome model who ran the ateliers of Paris!' (Le Figaro, 1858) → {{-'}}There is not in France a single artist, painter or sculptor who does not know Joseph ... the most handsome model who ran the ateliers of Paris!' (Le Figaro, 1858) Y done (linked to another article, as the quote is included there; let me know if you think it still needs to be included in the note in its entirety)
• Bona Mangangu suggests that surviving contemporary accounts of Joseph–including an 1840 passage by the French writer Émile de La Bédollière where Joseph, longing for his "his native land," is described as constantly distracted– — Change en-dashes to em-. Y done (changed to direct quotes from the scholar who analyzed the source and included their English translation as a note)

  Would recommed [Black person] over [black] for consistency and the disfavored status of the phrasing "a black". -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 00:00, 27 March 2023 (UTC) Y agreed (the only reason I had it with lower case was to retain the original formatting and glad to change it)

2a: Ref layout

• In Notes 2 and 3, it's possible to simply cite the source in question as a nested ref rather than say "see...". Alternately you can do {{harvnb|Mourgues|2019}} and {{harvnb|Alhadeff|2020}} to link to them. Y done (use harvnb for all except those not cited elsewhere; let me know if this looks consistent or whether I should edit further)

  Yeah, that works. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 00:00, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

• Would strongly suggest including an English translation for note 3. Happy to help in that regard if desired. Y done (replaced the translation per above :-) )

  Yeah, that works! Just to make sure I haven't lost track, are there at this point any original translations in the article that don't have the original French included by footnote? Per WP:NONENG, for a translated passage where you're the translator, you should include the original as well. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 00:00, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

  all fixed now I believe! directly in the text for a few singular words and phrases translated from French newspaper articles and provided the entire Le Figaro quote as a separate note as well as one for Mangangu quote; everything else cited should be from English or existing English translations only Ppt91^talk 01:20, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

2b: Citations

To the extent I am able to access them, I check ledecites, MINREF-required cites, and every prime-numbed cite as of 1146575967, plus any cites bundled therewith for a specific claim. I use Y for "verifies", Y for "verifies but with some caveat", N for "minor issue", and N for "significant issue".

• Mourgues 2019.
  • Name N I see a difference between le nègre and le Nègre. It's like how someone could be widely known as "John the carpenter", but that wouldn't make it accurate to call him "John the Carpenter" as if it were a name or a nickname. Mourgues only capitalizes the N in the title of Brune's painting; she uses a lowercase n when speaking in her own voice, as does the 1858 Figaro piece she cites. And it's hard to say what's intended in Brune's painting's title: French works' titles are usually in sentence case, but not always. Absent further evidence of le Nègre being used as a quasi-surname, I think this should be lowercased. And in either case, I would suggest briefly explaining what nègre means, either parenthetically or in an {{efn}}. Y done (I changed to lower-case in lead and linked to en-wiki Negro and sourced it to Dictionary of Artists' Models (2013); do you think this is sufficient?)

    Y'know, I thought this formatting wasn't allowed, but apparently MOS:BOLDLINKAVOID only applies to the reiteration of the title. However, please create Joseph le nègre and Joseph le Nègre as redirects per MOS:BOLDALTNAMES. (If fr:Joseph Nègre ever gets an enwiki article there will be a need for a hatnote, but none is needed yet.) -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 00:00, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

    • Y done (I believe both redirects should work correctly now) Ppt91^talk 01:36, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

  • Arrivals in Marseille and Paris (also looking at Allen 2003) Y Is there a reason to hedge with "he is said to have"? Y done (removed "is said")
  • Beaux-Arts Y
  • Devil painting N Mostly verifies, but the quote is from Butterfield-Rosen Y done (thanks for catching, it was supposed to be Butterfield-Rosen)
• Ahdifard 2023 N I'm on the fence as to whether WP:HEADLINES rules out using this quote, but lean toward excluding. It is not clearly a statement in the author's own voice, rather than something added after the fact by an editor who may lack expertise. Is there a better quote that could convey the same thing? note: I agree with you and have been trying to find a better quote; thought this one would work due to it being 1) Getty website 2) listed author, but I am not sold on it either. Will see if I can find a better replacement.
• Getty Museum 2023. This is a tertiary source; a secondary source would be preferable, but it's still reliable. note: as above, I've generally been quite reluctant to overcite the online exhibition and find it odd they have not even provided the names of specific scholars, especially given how understudied the topic is... on the other hand, they do provide some really helpful details, but I try to find alternative whenever possible
  • Date and place of birth Y Is there a reason to hedge with "it is believed", though? note: I've seen this phrasing (or along these lines) in several sources, so thought it'd be good to keep it, as the historical records scarce/non-existent so it's still speculative

    Fair enough. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 00:00, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

  • 9th or 7th arrondissement N The source is ambiguous in describing this. Given that it's a tertiary source, a more clear statement from a secondary source should be found. note: changed to "Much of the Haitian diaspora was concentrated in the 9th or 17th arrondissement, neighborhoods popular with contemporary artists, art models, and communities of color, including Alexandre Dumas and Laure." -- I think this should be sufficient without speculating about where he lived specifically? Happy to adjust further.

    I don't know, to me that's not a very clear statemet. Iit could also be read to say that many like Joseph lived in the 9th or 17th, without saying that he specifically did. I tried to search for a better source just now and came up empty. Given the source's relatively low reliability compared to most others in this article, I remain very hesitant. Perhaps in-text attribution? A 2023 digital exhibition by the J. Paul Getty Museum suggests that he lived in the 9th or 17th arrondissement like many other immigrants and those involved in the arts, something like that? -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]}(she|they|xe) 00:00, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

    • I definitely see your point! I changed it to A 2023 digital exhibition by the J. Paul Getty Museum suggests that he lived in the 9th or 17th arrondissement like many other immigrants and those involved in the arts, including Laure, a Black female model who worked with Édouard Manet. per your suggestion, but also happy to remove entirely until I find a better source if you think this is still a stretch? Ppt91^talk 01:29, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

  • Posed for man in back in The Raft of the Medusa (also looking at McCoy 2021) Y
  • tête d'étude Y note: this is further confirmed in Masterpieces of Painting: J. Paul Getty Museum. Scott Allan, Davide Gasparotto, Peter Björn Kerber, Anne T. Woollett. Los Angeles: J. Paul Getty Museum. 2019 which is the following footnote
  • "most handsome model" Y note: leaving for now, hopefully could find alternative
• Solly 2017. Mixed bag
  • Joseph being in The Raft of the Medusa Y
  • Inspiration for The Raft of the Medusa Y Not verified in source, but source not strictly required for such verifiable and uncontroversial details. However, Getty Museum 2023 does verify this, so might be worth citing. Y done (if I understand correctly it referring to "inspiration for a third...")
    • Publication year of The Raft of the Medusa N Source says he modeled for it in 1818 without giving a publication year; linked The Raft of the Medusa says 1818 or 1819. Y done (added additional source detailing when he started working on the composition from Met Museum Bulletin article; let me know if I should move things around

    Still not sure we have a source saying it's an 1819 painting. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 00:00, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

    • Agreed. Changed to reflect the date range--should be that way across the article; please let me know if I missed anything :-) Ppt91^talk 01:29, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

• Doridou-Heim 2019 Y
• Allan et al. 2019 Y
• Brathwaite 2023 Y
• McCoy 2021 and Combis 2019, regarding Géricault's abolitionism Y
• Berger & Johnson 1969 Y
• Bar 2017 Y
• Peck 2019 Y
• Butterfield-Rosen 2019 Y
• Combis 2019, regarding "vile profession" Y
• Nayrolles 2010 Y Verifies; however, should probably mention in the body that the painting exhibited in 1865 was likely older, rather than just in a footnote. Y done

2c: OR

• The artist closely studied Joseph's physique before incorporating his torso into the final composition which is evident in the model's back study completed between 1818 and 1819. — Is this sourced to something? I don't think it's sufficiently self-evident that it can be said unsourced. note: I am quite certain there was a source, but for some reason can't locate it now, so changed to "During the same time, Géricault completed a study of the model's back." to avoid OR and will edit if I can find support for the original statement.

  Ugh. Hate that feeling. Somewhere in Mike Tyson's tattoos I cite a source that has a great quote about how different Tyson is from Arthur Ashe, and I've checked every damn one it could be and still can't find it... Ugh. Anyways, yeah, no worries. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 00:00, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

2d: Copyvio

• a moment from the aftermath of the wreck of the French naval frigate Méduse, which ran aground off the coast of today's Mauritania on 2 July 1816 For a bit I thought this was copyvio, because it's been used in quite a few places. You've adequately attributed the content, but given the existence of many sources copying the same content, you may want to add {{copied}} to the talkpage to make it extra-clear in the future that this is permissible reuse, not copyvio. Y done (added it to talk page, though it's my first time using this template in addition to edit summary attribution and hope it will suffice--let me know if not!)
• Otherwises passes copyvio check. Y great! :-)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Bruxton (talk) 13:59, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Portrait of Joseph

• ... that Théodore Géricault's paintings of Haitian-born model Joseph are unusual in portraying him as 'an actual, distinct person'? Source: Brathwaite, Peter (2023). Rediscovering Black Portraiture. Cheryl Finley, Temi Odumosu, Mark Sealy (contributors). Los Angeles: Getty Publications. p. 119. ISBN 978-1-60606-816-8.
  • ALT1: ... that Joseph may have been shipwrecked three times on The Raft of the Medusa? Source: The Raft of the Medusa (1818–1819) section
  • ALT2: ... that Joseph became one of École des Beaux-Arts's only three male models? Source: https://www.radiofrance.fr/franceculture/joseph-ou-le-renouveau-du-modele-noir-au-xixe-5846944
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Battle of Malacca (1641)
  • Comment: The first two hooks were Tamzin's suggestions.

Improved to Good Article status by Ppt91 (talk). Nominated by Onegreatjoke (talk) at 17:45, 30 March 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Joseph (art model); consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• This qualifies for DYK as a recently-reviewed Good Article. As would be expected, it is well-written and carefully referenced. It is easily long enough and is original text with any quotations attributed properly. The image is in the public domain (painter died in 1924) and looks good at thumbnail scale. QPQ done. I find the article as a whole very interesting but feel that the offered hooks don't quite capture this. Checking the source for the first hook, it uses the phrase "an actual, distinct person" but it doesn't convey that this was "unusual". Arguably it is not unusual that a facial portrait by a skilled artist would convey the impression that the subject is an actual person. ALT1 is cleverly phrased, but the "may" is so weak that it pretty much stops it being an impressive hook (I notice the language of the article itself is stronger). ALT2 has the opposite issue: it is an unambiguous statement backed up with an inline citation, but is it surprising that an art school at one point employed only three male models? In the "Late years (1840s–1860s)" section of the article, we learn that Joseph was said to be known to every painter and sculptor in France, and said to be the most beautiful model in Paris. Can the wording of ALT1 be made more categorical, or a new hook made from one of these surprising superlatives? The author has done great work for Wikipedia's coverage of visual art by documenting this person; there now just needs to be a DYK hook worthy of the article. MartinPoulter (talk) 13:56, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

@Onegreatjoke: Do you have time to take another look at this article? MartinPoulter (talk) 08:44, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

MartinPoulter Is it okay for me to suggest an alternative, given I was the author? Despite being active in GA, I've never actually participated in DYK before and am not sure whether the protocol allows this. Thanks! Ppt91^talk 17:45, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

User:Ppt91. You're very welcome to! MartinPoulter (talk) 17:34, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

@Ppt91: Status report? BorgQueen (talk) 06:06, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

@BorgQueen: sorry for my delay and thanks for checking in. I tried to find a way to rephrase some of the original suggestions. I think that simply saying "... Joseph, a 19th-century Haitian acrobat, served as a principal model for Theodore Gericault's Raft of the Medusa (1818-1819)?" There are multiple sources for this, but first wanted to know if it'd work. I appreciate your taking the time to help with this! Ppt91^talk 18:42, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

@Cielquiparle and Theleekycauldron: could you help them by suggesting a few more interesting hooks? BorgQueen (talk) 18:48, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

I must say, I think ALT1 is pretty good – how do you get shipwrecked three times on the same ship? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 21:18, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: - Offline/paywalled citation accepted in good faith Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Approve ALT0 only. While ALT1 might sound interesting, he wasn't actually "shipwrecked" three times, according to the article. Too much poetic distortion which won't survive the MP exposure it's going to get. BorgQueen (talk) 16:32, 25 April 2023 (UTC)