Talk:José Paranhos, Viscount of Rio Branco

Translation from the portuguese wiki

The portuguese article about Paranhos is very good. If someone had the patience to translate it to english, it would be great. --Lecen (talk) 18:42, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Children? 2nd Viscount of Rio Branco?

Did he have any children? Who succeeded him as the 2nd Viscount of Rio Branco? Surtsicna (talk) 14:17, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

No one. In Brazil, the nobility was not hereditary. See Empire of Brazil#Nobility. His elder son became later Baron of Rio Branco on his own. I haven't finished this article yet, I will mention his children in the "Diplomat" section. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 17:35, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:José Paranhos, Viscount of Rio Branco/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 16:30, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I will review this article. Please give me 7 days. If during this time you do not reply to my suggestions, the article will be failed. I am here to work with you to give it GA status. Cheers! Meishern (talk) 20:53, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

---

INTRO

Please explain this sentence in the intro : "Rio Branco's work in the press regarding the threatening armed conflicts...". So he became a journalist after the dissolution of the Liberal Party? It is confusing. Rephrase it somehow to make it understandable to average reader please. Cheers! Meishern (talk) 21:14, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Montevideo (capital of Uruguay) ---> merge this into 1 link. Meishern (talk) 21:16, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Word 'captaincy', please link it or explain it to average reader. Meishern (talk) 21:22, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Look. Let me give you some advice. Take the next three days. Re-read the article focusing on the grammar and sentence structure of this article. Look also at the neutrality of the article. I read about 1/3 of it, and unless I spend hours rephrasing, there is no way I can pass this for GA in its current form. Please don't take this personally. There are a lot of sentences that for a better term are 'awkward'. There is a lot of POV here. Statements like "The star of Aureliano Coutinho soon faded". You also write strange things as "His childhood was simple and without luxury" yet you also write "His family was wealthy". Please take some time to look at this article from neutral point of view of someone who never heard of this man or know anything about Brazilian politics in the 19th century. Clean it up. I will help you. But I cant re-write 20% of the article. Cheers! Meishern (talk) 21:38, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Response I have gone over the article again, and have tweaked it to read better in several places. As to your specific points:

• Yes, Rio Branco returned to being "a journalist after the dissolution of the Liberal Party". However, that is not the point of the sentence, which introduces the sequence in the remainder of that paragraph. The sentence merely states that it was Rio Branco's work in journalism which attracted the attention of Carneiro Leão. The lead section is a summary, and this sentence relates to the "Platine War" subsection. I have done a minor edit to the sentence, though I'm not sure that it addresses your confusion.
• Piping both a word and a following parenthetic phrase—i.e., Montevideo (capital of Uruguay)—is awkward at best, and vague/nonspecific at worst. The term "Uruguay" has a previous wikilink. I may be misunderstanding your point.
• There is now a wikilink to the word "Captaincy".

Your assertion that the article is PoV is baseless. If you are aware of mainstream dissenting viewpoints, such new information can always be added. However, as the article now stands, it reflects the references cited and is representative of historical consensus I've come across to date. • Astynax ^talk 20:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Dont worry about what I say now. Dont take it personally. Thanks for the wikilink to captaincy. My goal is to get this GA, and if I am being a bit rough, its just to keep the standards high. I appreciate the clarifications you made in other places. Now 5th graders can follow the flow of the article, and that is one of my goals. Cheers! Meishern (talk) 20:21, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

---

Somewhere in 1st section you wrote "To help support his education, Paranhos gave private lessons to his colleagues". Can you explain what kind of lessons? fighting, math, etc... Meishern (talk) 20:21, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

The author does not says what kind of lessons. He taught to his friends what he and they were learning in the Military Academy. What exactly it was, we do not know. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 20:25, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Ok... maybe rephrase it to make it stronger. Another point, Naval School sounds a bit weak, Naval Academy perhaps? What do you think? Meishern (talk) 20:30, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Fine by me. --Lecen (talk) 20:32, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

BY the way if you dont like the way I rephrase some of this, feel free to change it. Once I get through this, I will re-read it once more. Meishern (talk) 20:34, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

---

courtier faction.

"At the time, Aureliano Coutinho was the most powerful figure in national politics. He was the leader of the "Courtier Faction", a group which had established influence over the young and inexperienced Emperor Dom Pedro II."

link cautinho, pedro ii. was he emperor of Portugal or Brazil? never knew Brazil had an emperor. i am weak on south american history. Meishern (talk) 20:59, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

José Maria da Silva Paranhos, Viscount of Rio Branco (March 16, 1819 — November 1, 1880) was a statesman, diplomat, teacher, journalist and monarchist of the Empire of Brazil (1822–1889). Rio Branco was born in Salvador, in what was then the Captaincy of Bahia. His family was wealthy, but he lost almost all his fortune after his parents' deaths early in his childhood.

He was born in the Empire of Brazil and lived in the Empire of Brazil. --Lecen (talk) 21:02, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Just noting here that I will be taking over the review, and looking at the article over the next week. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 01:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Lecen and I are still here to help if you have any questions. • Astynax ^talk 01:34, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I got caught up in another GA review, one of an article even bigger than this. That's finished, so I can now review this. Due to the size, I'll review the article by sections. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 05:33, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Lead

• No issues. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 04:52, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Early years

• "This unpopular decision caused him to loose respect among his peers and ruined his business" lose. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear}

• I restored the original wording there, as it was more than "losing respect". • Astynax ^talk 18:04, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

• That reads a lot better now. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 16:06, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Early political career

• Does Aureliano de Sousa e Oliveira Coutinho have an article to lin kto? From how he sounds it's rather surprising he doesn't.

• There doesn't seem to be anything currently on the English Wikipedia, only the Portuguese. • Astynax ^talk 10:29, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

• "who was backed by a strong political power base—," since there's dashes the comma isn't needed

• Fixed. • Astynax ^talk 10:29, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

• The last paragraph of the Courtier Faction almost seems to get tangential. It's certainly interesting and provides background, but Paranhos' relation to it isn't entirely clear. was he forced out as well?

• I've added a sentence to hopefully give a better sense that he lost his influence when his party lost power. The rebellion which quickly followed sealed the Liberal Party's downfall (and any hope of a political resurrection for Paranhos). • Astynax ^talk 10:29, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

• "On 23 October 1851 he decided to take [39] Paranhos as his Secretary" that ref seems in a rather random place, or maybe it's just me. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 04:15, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

• You are correct, the footnote at the end of the sentence will cover it. Removed. • Astynax ^talk 10:29, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Conservative Party

• "The new government was faced with a major challenge" feels a bit jarring jumping from the previous sentence; reword a bit. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 05:15, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

• I've moved this down into the next paragraph, which details the actual challenge. • Astynax ^talk 10:17, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Diplomat

• "Long after his father's death and after Brazil had become a republic, the junior Paranhos would go on to a distinguished career as Minister of Foreign Affairs. He has come to be regarded as one of the nation's greatest heroes due to his pivotal role in securing the country's international boundaries, and has been officially designated as the Father of Brazilian Diplomacy.[83]" does the last sentence refer to the junior? if so, this all can probably be removed as overly tangential to this article. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 06:02, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Pres. of Council of Ministers

• "It is is true that" Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 06:22, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

• Fixed. • Astynax ^talk 10:15, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Later years/death

• No issues. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 06:24, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Legacy

• No issues.

Misc.

• References look fine. Can't double-check any to make sure sources match up with the wording since they're all offline, but I can AGF on this. The images look fine, but for File:Cerro de Montevideo desde la ciudad. Año 1865.jpg, I don't get where the source is from. All it says is "desconocida" without a year or author or anything. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 03:42, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Wizardman, I'm sick now but I'll be fine in a few days. Could you continue your review? I'll deal with this picture before you're finished with the review, don't worry. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 11:21, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Found a decent source for the photo and also changed the license tag. --Lecen (talk) 13:07, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

No problem; looks better now. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 16:05, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

• Everything looks good now, so I'll pass the article as a GA. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 16:41, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

• Thank you Wizardman for picking up the review and your constructive notes! • Astynax ^talk 18:25, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Wizardman, you never fail us. Thank you very much for taking your time to review this article. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 19:30, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

"Progressist League"?

I changed instances of "Progressist" to "Progressive", noting that the sources seem to refer to the latter. I was promptly reverted, with a claim that they do not "seem" to do so. Let's test that proposition, shall we?

• "Progressist League" has 5 hits on Google Books, all of which refer to a British group.

• "Progressive League" has a number of relevant hits, some of which I will link to: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], etc.

So yes, the sources do indeed "seem" to refer to a "Progressive League", do they not? (I know it's called the Liga Progressista in Portuguese, but in English, it has a different name, and we should reflect that.) - Biruitorul ^Talk 14:59, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Liga Progressista is translated as "Progressist League". Liga Progressiva is translated as "Progressive League". And yes, there is a word "progressist" in English grammar. You want to translate as Progressive? Do it, then. I don't care anymore. I'm quite tired of all this. Nominating articles to Featured status is boring and most of the time, is a a complete and total loss of time. --Lecen (talk) 15:19, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

First of all, I stand corrected on one matter: "progressist" does exist in English, although it is, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, "now chiefly historical" (i.e., obsolete). That said, the point here is that I have shown, from English-language sources, that the Liga Progressista is known in English as "Progressive League". The sources determine how we call entities. Do you wish to contest that? (And no, I'm not trying to be picky, but FAC is a demanding process. You've written a great article, but there are a few minor improvements to be made.) - Biruitorul ^Talk 18:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Nope. If it is the correct translation, go ahead. You may undo my revert. --Lecen (talk) 19:30, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Prose review

I'm going to review this article for prose, and post my comments on each section. This may take several days.

Lead

• You might want to link midshipman, because the term doesn't appear anywhere else in the article. Perhaps you may want to change terms here, or add it in the body?
• "In the same year" might read better as "Later that year", or just "That same year".
• "Instead of following a military career..." might read better as "Instead of continuing his military career..." or "Rather than continue to serve in the military".
• "...site of the national capital of the same name." This is a little unclear to me. Is this a province that has the same name as the capital city, or did it later become the capital itself?
• " In 1853 he joined the Marquis of Paraná's..." unclear who "he" is, a lot of names were just mentioned.
• "Rio Branco was again sent to Uruguay as a diplomat in 1864, with the mission to end the war between Uruguay and Brazil." could be rephrased as "Rio Branco was sent to Uruguay in late 1864, tasked with bringing a diplomatic end to the Uruguayan War." or perhaps, "A skilled diplomat, Rio Branco was tasked/charged with ending the 1864 war with Uruguay."
• "...this time to negotiate an end to its war with Brazil." could use a link to the appropriate war.
• "...and Pedro II ennobled him..." could use a link to Nobility, ennoblement isn't a common term.
• "Rio Branco's popularity was enhanced by his role in passage of this law." could be rephrased as "the passage of this law increased Rio Branco's popularity."
• "...plagued by a long crisis with the Catholic Church..." I don't know if "crisis" is the right word, I need to read the rest of the article. Perhaps "dispute"?
• Catholic Church could use a link.
• Oral cancer could use a link.

--Gyrobo (talk) 21:27, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for taking your time to review the article, Gyrobo. Some answers:

You might want to link midshipman... - Yes, it does. Check the thrid paragraph of the first section ("Early years"):"'In 1841, when he was 22, he graduated with the rank of midshipman, enrolling in the Army's Military Academy".

Is this a province that has the same name as the capital city, or did it later become the capital itself? Rio de Janeiro is the name of both a city (widely known simply as "Rio") and of the Brazilian province (nowadays called "state"). The city is located in the state (during the Empire, province) of the same name.

unclear who "he" is - He is Paranhos, the Viscount of Rio Branco

I don't know if "crisis" is the right word - Crisis is the correct term. You'll see it once you read the article.

I'm going to adress all issues raised by you. Please, continue with your review. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 21:44, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Early years

• "...where his own family originated." would read better as "where Agostinho's own family had originated."
• It would be nice to have the date of his parents' wedding, if the sources have it.
• "...since what remained of..." could be rephrased as "since the remnants/remainder of..."
• Should "second-lieutenant" have a hyphen? Second Lieutenant doesn't, would that be an appropriate article to link to?
• "After Paranhos graduated from the Military Academy in 1843 as a second-lieutenant in the engineer corps..." should be cut down a little, you already mentioned the part about him being promoted to second lieutenant, in the previous paragraph.

--Gyrobo (talk) 16:46, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

I made all changes as you suggested. Unfortunately, the biographies I own about Rio Branco do not tell the year of this parents' marriage.Also, notice that Rio Branco became a second lieutenant in bith the Army and the Navy. Same ranking, but different branches of the Armed Forces. Apparently that was allowed, then. --Lecen (talk) 14:21, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Religious Question

I've corrected a number of inaccuracies and omissions from this section. I realise that there is a lot of pride in the building of this into a Featured article, and this does not detract from this achievement but I would caution against wholesale reversion to changes simply out of a feeling of armour propre.

JASpencer (talk) 20:20, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

I'd also add that there were reasons given in each of the edit summaries. By all means point out where this was insufficient, but don't say that "no reason was given" as this is misleading. JASpencer (talk) 20:23, 16 September 2012 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 October 2014

179.236.168.75 (talk) 06:03, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Not done: According to the page's protection level and your user rights, you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Cannolis (talk) 06:17, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Diplomat

Unless there are well founded objections, I propose to add the following section immediately under the heading 'Diplomat', before the subheading 'Uruguayan War'. As follows:

"Mission to Paraguay

In January 1858 Paranhos was sent to Asunción to procure Paraguayan compliance with an 1856 treaty which was supposed to give Brazil the right to navigate the River Paraguay in order to access her province of Mato Grosso. The government of Paraguay had been obstructing the passage.. As described in Professor Whigham's The Paraguayan War:

The councillor cut an impressive figure. He was well over six foot tall with piercing sky-blue eyes. His resplendent diplomat's uniform, which he used on all occasions, shone brightly with gold brocade and included a high collar with white gloves, even in the tropical heat. Such fashion was calculated to give him a larger-than-life presence, symbolic of the enormous empire he represented. Paraguayans were sensitive to subtleties in appearance and they understood such an image... In appearance he suggested a modern European statesman, a man who combined shrewdness and easy familiarity with power...

The empire was willing, Paranhos stated bluntly, to go to war to enforce the 1856 treaty. Francisco Solano López [representing the Paraguayan government] chose to take the councillor's threat at face value. On 12 February 1858 the two men signed a convention that ended the restrictions ...

"

Adding this source: Whigham, Thomas L. (2002). The Paraguayan War: Causes and Early Conduct. Vol. 1. Lincoln and London: University of Nebraska Press. ISBN 0-8032-4786-9.

The purpose of adding this vignette is that it brings him to life as a diplomat. The quotation from Whigham, acknowledged, is not excessive by fair use standards.

Ttocserp 10:41, 12 September 2017 (UTC)