Talk:Jorit

Notability

Sourcing is BLP1E.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:06, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Yuri Gagarin by Jorit.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:52, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Rename the article in "Jorit"

Good evening, I'm noticing that Jorit signs all his works only with this name, without ever adding "Agoch" and also in many interviews he talks about himself only as Jorit and never "Jorit Agoch". If you agree I would be to rename the entry only in "Jorit" specifying in the body that "Agoch" would be a pseudonym. Mhorg (talk) 17:23, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Gennaro di Jorit.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:06, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Agostino Chirwin?

A number of reports about his detention in Israel call him Agostino Chirwin. What's this about? - Altenmann >talk 12:16, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

He is the second artist arrested[1]--Mhorg (talk) 12:24, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm investigating, maybe that's his real name, and the article above is wrong.--Mhorg (talk) 12:30, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

"Italy 24 press" is realiable?

Does anyone know if this source is reliable?[2] It is practically unknown in Italy and has minimal graphics, like a site from the early 2000s. It looks like an amateur project and even the texts do not seem professionally written. Mhorg (talk) 09:45, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Undue details about Helen Whittle

With the latest changes,[3] 4 lines of text have been added to recount unimportant details about Helen Whittle's reaction, moreover using as the source "Italy 24 press" which I fear is not reliable and uses very aggressive and unprofessional language. Mhorg (talk) 09:48, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

"Corriere del Ticino" article

I believe this article[4] cannot be used for text like "[Jorit] was accused of spreading Russian propaganda" as it makes assertions without bringing evidence. We read: "judging by the likes accumulated on Instagram, the Kremlin has once again hit its target: to favour its narrative to a foreign audience, specifically the Italian one". So is the article suggesting that this artist is being manipulated by Moscow? Evidence? Mhorg (talk) 11:26, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand any of your objections here or above. Jorit used another artist's photo w/out permission and w/out paying her. She is angry and appalled and seeking legal advice about suing him. Jorit's defense of what he did was flatly dishonest, he only began to come clean (slightly) when his lies were exposed by the public. Yes, of course this is Russian propaganda. He received help from Russia in doing the mural. W/out their agreement, there is no mural there. Furthermore, it replaces a well known mural in Mariupol, covered up by the Russian invaders, of a girl whose family the Russians wiped out in 2015. Among other blatant propagandistic aspects, Jorit falsely portrays the bombs as coming from NATO rather than Russia. Jorit has in fact been accused widely in Italy of spreading Russian propaganda, including in the on-line forum that is referenced in the articles. 72.86.135.37 (talk) 72.86.135.37 (talk) 16:16, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Attack page

With the latest changes, we have 9 lines of text detailing a minor event, this one from Mariupol, in the artist's career. The article looks more and more like a WP:Attack. I would also ask other colleagues to express themselves. I think we need to shorten the text as soon as possible to neutralise it. Mhorg (talk) 18:02, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Everything you are doing in your editing appears to be shielding Jorit from legitimate criticism of his actions and his false statements. What you call an "Attack" and what you keep deleting is factual information that explain why his actions/statements are facing strong criticism. That is not what NPOV means either, nor can a description of the facts related to his false/misleading statements be called UNDUE when Jorit has made his support of Putin's invasion central to his public image for more than a year. 72.86.135.37 (talk) 72.86.135.37 (talk) 02:00, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Archived BLPN discussion[5] Morbidthoughts (talk) 00:46, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Acknowledgements section

The previous Acknowledgements section was a copy-paste of a machine translation of the original source, so I rewrote it. I left in the nomination statement, but am dubious that it's WP:DUE so if another editor decides to remove it, I won't object. Schazjmd (talk) 16:49, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I removed it since keeping a machine translation would go against WP:NOENG (if you did not rewrite this portion) and is just UNDUE puffery. Morbidthoughts (talk) 18:16, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Korban mural vs Jorit mural

@Morbidthoughts: Hope my new version of the info on Sasha Korban mural Milana versus Jorit's mural of Whittle's daughter is now more clearly shown as due context per the sources. Boud (talk) 19:14, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I didn't realise there was this discussion. I think the parallel between the two makes no sense and is not related to Jorit. Moreover, the criticism is made by Valigiablu, which is a biased newspaper. We are again giving an exaggerated focus on a minor issue. Mhorg (talk) 19:16, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

We can shorten this. The Guardian reported on this specific criticism so it may be DUE. Morbidthoughts (talk) 19:23, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Valigia Blu may be biased, but The Guardian describes it as reliable. Boud (talk) 19:52, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Just for the record, this is Mhorg's revert of my new version mentioned above. Boud (talk) 19:58, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

As I said, it could be shortened. Morbidthoughts (talk) 20:22, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Proposed text:

Il Giornale and the Italian investigative journalism site Valigia Blu contrasted Jorit's mural with Sasha Korban's 2018 mural on the facade of a building in Mariupol of Milana Abdurashytova, a Ukrainian girl from Mariupol who lost her leg and her mother in a missile strike by pro-Russian forces in 2015.

It's shorter and better justified in terms of sources that see the two murals as being related to one another. Il Giornale is one of Italy's major newspapers, much more prominent than Valigia Blu, although the Guardian prefers to refer to Valigia Blu. Boud (talk) 20:55, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

This needs context and should be shortened to: "Critics also questioned the appropriateness of Jorit's mural after Russian forces had previously removed a mural by Sasha Korban that depicted a Ukrainian girl who lost her leg and her mother in a missile strike by pro-Russian forces in 2015." Morbidthoughts (talk) 22:48, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Mhorg being Mhorg, duh. Why were you criticizing me earlier for pointing out that Mhorg's regular tendency is to delete whatever is most unflattering about Jorit's and Russia's behavior with regard to this blatantly propagandistic mural? The context that explains why his mural is so fiercely criticized is indeed the contrast with the earlier mural the Russian invaders covered up. There can't be any legitimate doubt that Jorit's mural intentionally subverts the message of that earlier mural by taking the same theme as the suppressed earlier mural. 72.86.133.127 (talk) 17:45, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Proposal 2 3 4 (refs 1 and 2 are in the article):

Critics also questioned the appropriateness of Jorit's mural after Russian forces had previously removed a mural by Sasha Korban in Mariupol that depicted a Ukrainian girl who lost her leg and her mother in a missile strike by pro-Russian forces in 2015.

@Morbidthoughts and Mhorg: Any objections? Boud (talk) 01:40, 22 July 2023 (UTC) (edited from Proposal 2 to Proposal 3 based on Morbidthoughts' comment Boud (talk) 16:16, 22 July 2023 (UTC)) (edited to Proposal 4 with one more reference Boud (talk) 23:00, 23 July 2023 (UTC))

Korban before Mariupol. Morbidthoughts (talk) 03:33, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I reiterate what I wrote above: the connection between Sasha Korban's work and Jorit's is only an allusion by newspapers that want to portray Jorit in a bad light. We are not talking about the facade of the same building, and I don't see why we have to read in this artist's article that in Mariupol there was a mural with a little girl who had lost a leg. We are linking the artist to an affair that does not concern him, making him appear complicit in something he did not do.

Please also note that Valigia Blu article is written by Leonardo Bianchi[6]: "is news editor of VICE Italia. He collaborates (or has collaborated) with Valigia Blu, Internazionale and other newspapers. Since 2008 he also writes about politics, current affairs and culture on his satirical blog La Privata Repubblica". His two books are cited 15 times[7] and 4 times,[8] and they do not deal with Ukraine. He does not specialise at all in the 2014 Russian-Ukrainian conflict. Mhorg (talk) 07:37, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

@Mhorg: It's not the facade of the same building, but the buildings are close, the similarity of having a huge building facade mural of a small girl in Mariupol with intended symbolism in relation to the Russian invasion of Ukraine (from different points of view) is clear, and this is not purely the point of view of those newspapers. As the IP editor at WP:BLPN commented, this is circulating very widely in social media as being two closely related works of art. From the Wikipedia point of view, we can only use the regular media sources. And we do have regular media sources. For the media to compare these two murals and see them as related is not particularly defamatory. This is why I would actually prefer to specifically attribute the media, so that the reader can then decide if s/he/they consider those media to be misleading or biased, but Morbidthoughts prefers to have the shorter "Critics". In either case, I don't see how we can ignore this. We are not saying that Jorit was aware of Sasha Korban's Milana - currently we have no evidence either way. Obviously, if he had talked to Mariupol residents (including refugees from the invasion), he would have heard about it if he had told them of his own plan to do a mural. Boud (talk) 16:34, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Naive in the extreme to believe Jorit was unaware of a famous mural in the city where he later created a similar mural with a (ridiculously misleading) propagandistic slant as nearly opposite the original mural as possible. Even more so because it's inconceivable that he created his mural without the active support of the Russian occupiers. Jorit wouldn't have been able to put up that mural without Russian protection, the Ukrainian civilians would have been all over him. I note that in the first paragraph justifying his crusade to exclude this information, Mhorg makes a series of assertions that are (A) wholly unsupported, (B) implausible, (C) related to Jorit's thoughts that Mhorg is in no position to know, and (D) present the most flattering possible interpretation of Jorit's behavior. I would also say that Mhorg's assertions are very hard to reconcile with the obvious fact (mostly occluded in the current rewrite of the page) that Jorit deliberately lied multiple times about how/why he created this mural. 72.86.133.127 (talk) 17:58, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't think it's helpful to speculate on what Jorit did or did not know, remember BLP applies to all pages. However I agree with Bohd, we can mention this without worrying too much about what Jorit did or didn't know. If Jorit comes out and says he didn't know about the earlier mural and this is covered in reliable secondary sources, we can consider how to cover his denial and any sourced rejections of his denial then. Nil Einne (talk) 19:19, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

My impression is that (ignoring the personal attacks) we have a rough consensus in favour of Proposal 3 (above), with Mhorg still objecting. I would suggest that someone independent of Mhorg and me implement the change if s/he/they feel that the issue looks close enough to rough consensus. We could formalise this if needed, but my guess is that that won't be needed. Boud (talk) 22:12, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Il Mattino, writing mostly in the art-versus-life context, writes that there were critiche molto dure (very strong criticisms) against Jorit's mural and that In realtà (in reality) Jorit's mural followed Korban's mural that was destroyed by the Russian army.

@Mhorg: I updated Proposal 3 to Proposal 4. The text is identical except that now we have four references. This is getting to the borderline of WP:OVERCITE, so I don't see how you can continue to claim non-notability of the criticism and relation to Korban's Milana. If you still have an objection to Proposal 4, then please say so and explain why. Boud (talk) 23:00, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I have implemented the proposal even though I don't believe the overcite is necessary. There is consensus for inclusion of this criticism in some manner with the participation of 3 editors outside the original dispute between the ip address and Mhorg. Morbidthoughts (talk) 23:59, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Original dispute?! Before I showed up on this page there were already at least 3 other editors trying to include this information. Mhorg's original disputes were with the 3 of them in turn. 72.86.132.193 (talk) 04:46, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

References

Jorit's explanation of NATO missiles in the mural

Jorit stated (29:50 [9]) that he placed the NATO missiles in the mural because in the days he went to Mariupol, missiles had been fired at the city, as also reported in the Italian media.[10] Similar reports of similar bombings on the city in previous months had also been reported in the NYTimes.[11]

In the article, however, there is only this kind of criticism, which in my opinion seems to be just the journalist's way of discrediting the artist: "Jorit's mural was criticised on the basis that the bombs that killed children in Mariupol were Russian, and that the Mariupol hospital airstrike was attributed to Russian forces".

Either remove this part or specify what the artist meant. I repeat, this section is becoming huge on a fringe event. Mhorg (talk) 19:10, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Meh, secondary over primary. Let secondary RS coverage report on this clarification before inclusion. Morbidthoughts (talk) 20:53, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

The Guardian and Italian media consider this a significant event, not a fringe event, and they (the secondary sources) haven't seen Jorit's more detailed point of view (that bombs launched on Mariupol under occupation might be "from NATO") as notable. I agree with Morbidthoughts. Boud (talk) 23:05, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Your citations are useless for what you're arguing and implying. Neither the ANSA blurb nor the NYT article state that NATO missiles struck Mariupol, not even that NATO supplied weapons did. They both attribute the attacks in or on Mariupol on Ukrainian forces. The NYT suggests the weapons themselves are probably Ukrainian made or else there are Ukrainian saboteurs blowing things up in the city. The barely audible hour-long interview with multiple people proves nothing unless you point to the exact minute in which Jorit supposedly said what you claimed.

Likewise your insinuation that journalists are trying to smear Jorit's reputation is wholly unsupported by evidence.

Your constant refrain that this section is getting too long is not credible, particularly when you have deleted lots of material not just on the English page but also on the Italian WP page where you went so far as to delete every word on the subject.

You also never come to grips with the fact that Jorit made more than one false/misleading statement about how and why he created the mural, who the girl was, and why he's blaming NATO when it never bombed Mariupol. What's more telling, Jorit's account evolved over time as some of his statements were exposed as false. Other false statements of his were never retracted. For example, Jorit claimed not just the girl in the mural was a native of Donbass, but he also added that he hoped she would have the opportunity to see the mural of herself. That's quite the fantastic story, when he's talking about a photo he found on line of an Australian girl. 72.86.132.193 (talk) 20:59, 23 July 2023 (UTC)