Talk:Jon Anderson

Jon or John?

After recent edits the lede now simply reads "John Roy Anderson" with no clarification, while another editor insists that a legal name change would be necessary to justify indicating his stage name here. Obviously he is known as "Jon Anderson" to the public, which is the context for this article's existence and the notability of the topic.

Noting the birth name separately from the commonly known stage name (which he has used for almost every notable public performance or release in his career) would aid clarity. My suggestion would be to revise this to one of the following:

• "Jon Anderson (born John Roy Anderson…"

or

• "John Roy Anderson, known professionally as Jon Anderson…"

Thoughts? —O\Psha\Dang (talk | contribs) 21:59, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

In the absence of any participation from other editors here, I've made the revision based on the first option above. —O\Psha\Dang (talk | contribs) 14:29, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Looks fine to me, although it's also usual to embolden birthname, which I've just done. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Per MOS:HYPOCORISM, it is not always necessary to spell out why the article title and lead paragraph give a different name, however there was already a note after the name which is clarification enough in my opinion.

MOS:LEGALNAME says not to write the lead like the first option:

where the subject uses a popular form of their name in everyday life, then care must be taken to avoid implying that a person who does not generally use all their forenames or who uses a familiar form has actually changed their name. Do not write, for example: John Edwards (born Johnny Reid Edwards, June 10, 1953)., and so I have changed it to the second which was how it was previously formatted. Miklogfeather (talk) 17:56, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with the second option (as I proposed it), though I would point out that it would be better form to participate in the discussion before making revisions that are counter to the current discussion's consensus. —Op\Shada\nG (talk | contribs) 22:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

No strong view with either construction. I suspect the reader would understand either equally. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:25, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

See also Jon Lord? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:01, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

That formatting (John Douglas "Jon" Lord) works but I also don't think it's necessary and MOS:HYPOCORISM would seem to advise against it. I would be okay with that formatting being used however if there was a source that writes Anderson's name that way.

On a side note it seems from the article history there have been conflicts over Lord's real name. Sources differ on John [1], Jonathan [2] and Jon [3][4]. Miklogfeather (talk) 12:32, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Reverts

Hi @Martinevans123, you included in your edit summary that you were restoring the note for the instruments field but you also reverted all of my edits so I would like to know why you disagree with my changes so we can come to a conclusion. Thanks Miklogfeather (talk) 10:24, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Why did you remove the note here and add "harp"? If you have a view about the format of his name, I think you could participate at the discussion in the thread immediately above? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I removed the note because it's inaccurate. The template documentation does not suggest consensus is needed to add or remove instruments. Anderson's use of the harp is known and somewhat covered in the article, it seems odd to exclude that from the infobox.

I did participate in the above name formatting discussion citing MOS:LEGALNAME for my reasoning. Miklogfeather (talk) 14:59, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps we could aim to reach a local consensus on the use of that note. And then seek another consensus on whether the harp is a notable instrument for Anderson? I'm suggesting that we use this thread for discussion of the instrument and the above thread for discussion of the name format. The article says:"Anderson played the harp on "Flamants Roses" on Vangelis's album Opéra sauvage", but that's the only mention. However, the Categories have Category:British autoharp players. Which is correct? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:15, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

While he is credited for playing the harp on Going for the One, EarthMotherEarth, and the Vangelis project noted above, and (ostensibly) on Olias, he's not *known* for being a harp player any more than he's *known* for being a lute, sitar, or Turkish saz player, though he has played those. The purpose of the infobox is to summarize key facts (see MOS:IBP), and I believe we can all agree that it's not an essential "at a glance" fact about him.

Also, the autoharp is not the harp - not even close to the same thing, so that part is also incorrect.

As for the part about whether or not to include that note… honestly, I feel no need to have an opinion one way or the other on that specific note, except to say that assuming everyone is acting in good faith and discussing where necessary, notes like that in general shouldn't be needed. —Op\Shada\nG (talk | contribs) 16:08, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks for the clarification. I tend to agree about the note, but perhaps Miklogfeather could explain further why they removed it. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:33, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

While Template:Infobox musical artist#instrument does say "Instruments listed in the infobox should be limited to only those that the artist is primarily known for using", it doesn't say that a discussion is needed to change the listing like the note suggests. It might have in an obscure previous revision but now the note is citing a statement that isn't there which irks me. Miklogfeather (talk) 09:28, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Would you now agree that the harp is not an instrument that Anderson is primarily known for using? I'd suggest that sometimes, as in this case, discussion is needed to establish whether or not an instrument is seen as a primary one. But I'd be happy if the note said simply: "Instruments listed in the infobox should be limited to only those that the artist is primarily known for using", to help deter the same addition being made again. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:10, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

I would say that his use of harp on "Awaken", one of his most celebrated songs which he is still playing on tour, sets it apart from other unlisted instruments he's used—there are more photos of him playing harp than keyboards for instance. But it appears that consensus, admittedly from this very small sample size, is to not include it. Miklogfeather (talk) 20:55, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree that Anderson is not known as a harpist and, thus, it should be excluded. The infobox now lists vocals, guitar and percussion. He does play guitar and percussion, but he's not really known for them either. If you're going to have those, why not have keyboards, say? I would support just listing him as a vocalist. Bondegezou (talk) 10:33, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

If the instruments field were to only list vocals despite him using other instruments then I think it would be preferable to not use it at all since the occupations singer and musician already cover the performance of vocals and other instruments. It would be somewhat redundant and incomplete to just list vocals. Miklogfeather (talk) 12:14, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, maybe. But while we're here, I can see support for "percussion" in the paragraph about Olias of Sunhillow. But material to support "guitarist" seems to be notable by its absence? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:04, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree that singer/songwriter/musician covers it sufficiently as it currently appears. —Op\Shada\nG (talk | contribs) 17:30, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

So no instruments, just "Vocals", or what? Many thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:43, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Sorry I was looking at the "Occupation" field there as referenced in the comment above… (a good point was made that the mention of "musician" already covers other instruments to a degree). As for the "Instruments" one, I think the current "vocals/guitar/percussion" is sufficiently accurate. —Op\Shada\nG (talk | contribs) 22:44, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. So someone ought to add a mention of guitar in the main body? Martinevans123 (talk) 08:18, 3 December 2024 (UTC)

I see what you're getting at there. Worth pointing out that of the 7 photos of Jon in the article body, 3 of them show him playing guitar, which seems pretty self-explanatory in my opinion. But to be fully proper (with the infobox representing a summary of the article content), yes, it should be mentioned somewhere in the text that he plays guitar when performing. —Op\Shada\nG (talk | contribs) 15:17, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, quite. I'm guessing that Anderson is a probably a very proficient guitar-player. But some musicians have been known to use guitars as stage props. So photos are not the most convincing of sources. Maybe YT has some clips of him playing. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:23, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

p.s. I see he's classified as a guitarist on this Talk page, but the article page has no "guitarist" Categories? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:25, 4 December 2024 (UTC)

I think the question is more about frequency than proficiency, as the latter is a bit too subjective. I'm sure numerous sources can be found to attest to the fact that he frequently plays guitar, as the images already demonstrate. Here's one. As for categories, that seems a secondary concern, and honestly, the fact that he's known for playing guitar while singing/writing shouldn't necessarily make him notable as a "guitarist" as a standalone category. —Op\Shada\nG (talk | contribs) 16:30, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

That looks like a good source, although I'm not sure it's very definite about "frequency"? It just says "While his pri­mary writ­ing in­stru­ment is the gui­tar, An­der­son said he also plays key­boards and records demos in his home stu­dio." and later, "I have seven cas­settes here that I found about a month ago and I'm go­ing through them... I'm on there with my gui­tar and some re­ally in­ter­est­ing chords, it might be my next al­bum." No still image can attest to the fact that anyone can play a guitar. But if he had been pretending all these years, I'm sure the live reviewers would soon have let us know. Yes, there's no Category:Bad English guitarists. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:41, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

"Primary writing instrument" is the key phrase there. Anyway, what do you suggest as it pertains to the article? —Op\Shada\nG (talk | contribs) 16:55, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

A simple quote might be useful, in the context of Anderson's song-writing method/style? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:27, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

Nationality in lead

@Martinevans123 another edit I made that was undone in your revert was changing Anderson's nationality from "English and American" to British, based on the lack of sources that explicitly describe him as English and American but the existence of sources calling him a "British musician" [5][6]. This would instead paint him as a British man with additional American citizenship. Do you object to this change or would I be okay to reinstate it? Miklogfeather (talk) 12:41, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

No objections, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:08, 28 November 2024 (UTC) (although I note that there are no less than 10 Categories which all have "English"?)

Good catch, changed the categories. Miklogfeather (talk) 21:47, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

He is English, of course. And sang with the English band Yes. So I'm not sure if his non-Welshness, non-Scottishness and non-No'rnIrishness makes him any more notable than just being British. I see that he calls himself English on his YT page. But then that page also describes him as a "singer, songwriter, and multi-instrumentalist"! Maybe he'll turn back to being "English" if enough sources could be found. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:10, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

That YouTube description was copy pasted from an older version of this article, you can tell from the comma that was kept in from , known professionally as Jon Anderson, ... and the closed square bracket after Oldfield from where a reference number was removed. If it was original text, especially if written by Anderson, then I would feel more obligated to change the nationality back to English. Miklogfeather (talk) 01:27, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Is it fair to assume he approves? Martinevans123 (talk) 07:39, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

His parents were Irish and Scottish and he’s often talked about this Irish heritage, so I’m not certain English is better than British. He is also now American. He moved to the US many years ago and has US citizenship. I support describing him as British and American. Bondegezou (talk) 07:41, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

That's a good point. No objections Martinevans123 (talk) 08:05, 29 November 2024 (UTC) p.s. I see that he avoids any nationality descriptions at his bio.