Talk:John Tanton/Archive 1

Archive 1

Weasel words

This article in its current state is full of weasel words. The lede says "considered by many to be the most successful..", the 1st subsection opens with "some believed went too far..", and so on. This article needs references and the removal of this vague terms. A Train^talk 22:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Yo, wikifolk: I tried to edit out the above comment but the change was not persistent. Not sure why. Anyway, my point was that the current article does not contain such weasel (or other mammalian) depiction. It has been enhanced with more accurate and cited information. User FredElbel743 15:02 2008oct04 —Preceding unsigned comment added by FredElbel743 (talk • contribs) 21:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Unreliable sources

Article contains many references to self-published materials, including Tanton's personal home page, that fail WP:RS and has been tagged for this. His biography is published by FAIR Horizon Press, which is owned by FAIR, which Tanton founded, so that fails WP:RS because it is a self-published source. There is no mention of Tanton on the home page of the Little Traverse Conservancy that is linked in the article. Also needs cites for some unsourced material. Article seems extremely biased in favor of Tanton, who is a controversial figure and has been criticized for racist tendencies. Needs a LOT of work or may be tagged for deletion. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 02:00, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Response:

Mervyn:

As far as I can figure out, this is how to respond to a post, so here goes:

I had added a significant amount of material to the entry and it was deleted by someone (Will someone, as I recall). This material included organizations that Tanton had founded or had been on the board of. It was deleted because "wikipedia is not the place to post a CV".

So if you want the material re-added, please do so. It's in the archives as a prior version. Good luck getting it to stay up.

Now, regarding your allegation of racist tendencies: Tanton is not a racist. Period. Are you saying that we should add 1,000 words to the bio posting such ad hominem attacks and then refuting them? I seriously doubt that that is the purpose of a Wikipedia bio. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FredElbel743 (talk • contribs) 15:52, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Fred —Preceding unsigned comment added by FredElbel743 (talk • contribs) 15:43, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

The "response" above does not respond to the criticisms in the previous statement.Mervyn Emrys (talk) 21:30, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Reliable sources

It is noted on the WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard that the SPLC publication Intelligence Report which was questioned by two users "has been named at least twice by the Society of Professional Journalists in their Green Eyeshade journalism excellence awards [1] [2]" and may be used as a Reliable Source. It is also stated there that a link to an audited financial statement on the home page of the audited organization may be used as a Reliable Source, so it seems the objections of the two editors in that regard has no substance. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 05:21, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I found the above statement at Southern Poverty Law Center and copied it to here for future reference.Irving Furbish (talk) 22:00, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

• • Given the high level of quality citations and third party sources, I would recommend that the disputed banner be removed at this time as it has been several months without further discussion. I would like to get people thoughts on this prior to doing so. IlliniGradResearch (talk) 18:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Mervyn Emrys added the tags. He's edited the article as recently as June, so I presume he's still active. It'd be good to do whatever's necessary to resolve the issue.   Will Beback  talk  19:14, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

There are a great number of factual statments in the article tagged either "citation needed" or "unreliable source," which must be considered disputed until those statements are either removed or cited to WP:Reliable sources. If there was only one or two the situation would be different, but so many statements in one article demands a "disputed" banner. Removing the banner at this time would misrepresent those "facts" and be inappropriate, to say the least.Mervyn Emrys (talk) 15:08, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

PS: Please also see opening statement in above section this page labeled "Unreliable Sources."Mervyn Emrys (talk) 15:13, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

• • • • I understand your point. Would you have any issue if I performed a bit of research and came back with more solid third party source from data not from the SPLC, but publications and news outlets. I am spending the next week on wiki articles and would love to add this too the list. Your thoughts?IlliniGradResearch (talk) 19:20, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

New York Times 17 April 2011

Here's a new source for the article: The Anti-Immigration Crusader -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 03:10, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Anti-immigrant organizations affiliated with Tanton

The organized anti-immigration "movement" is almost entirely the handiwork of one man, John H. Tanton. Here is a list of 13 groups in the loose-knit Tanton network, followed by acronyms if the groups use them, founding dates, and Tanton's role in the groups. Those organizations designated as hate groups by the Southern Poverty Law Center are marked with (&). In this list, "founded" means a group was founded or co-founded by John Tanton. "Funded" means that U.S. Inc., the funding conduit created and still headed by Tanton, has made grants to the group.

&American Immigration Control Foundation, AICF, 1983, funded

&American Patrol/Voice of Citizens Together, 1992, funded

California Coalition for Immigration Reform, CCIR, 1994, funded

Californians for Population Stabilization, 1996, funded (founded separately in 1986)

Center for Immigration Studies, CIS, 1985, founded and funded

&Federation for American Immigration Reform, FAIR, 1979, founded and funded

NumbersUSA, 1996, founded and funded

Population-Environment Balance, 1973, joined board in 1980

Pro English, 1994, founded and funded

ProjectUSA, 1999, funded

&The Social Contract Press, 1990, founded and funded; publishes The Social Contract periodical.

U.S. English, 1983, founded and funded

U.S. Inc., 1982, founded and funded

Source: “John Tanton's Network.” Intelligence Report. Summer 2002. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 02:40, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Response:

John Tanton is not, and has never been, anti immigrant. Tanton is concerned about stabilizing US population at a sustainable level. Immigration, responsible for 2/3 of population doubling, must be addressed as part of this process. Tanton is for legal immigration, but at a lower, sustainable level. As for illegal immigration, it is... you guessed it - against the law to enter into the United States without inspection.

Regarding the SPLC's attacks, there is ample material available to implicate them as a hate-mongering organization. The Klan dried up, so they had to go find another straw man to attack in order to perpetuate their fundraising.

Fred —Preceding unsigned comment added by FredElbel743 (talk • contribs) 15:48, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Nonsense and blather. There are many reliable sources concerning Tanton's inclinations and history, including those now on file in papers he donated to a university library in Michigan. See: Beirich, Heidi. “The Tanton Files.” Intelligence Report. Winter 2008. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 23:09, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Excellent! Then go out and research this material and add the cites that you so strongly feel the biography deserves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FredElbel743 (talk • contribs) 15:37, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Good, I'm about to add them, Fred.--TheSilverRiver (talk) 19:14, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

There's another group that's formed in the past couple years called Progressives for Immigration Reform which appears from at least a couple sources to be associated with Tanton. I'm still unsure whether this is a group formed/funded by Tanton, or if it's just one that is inspired by or linked through common leaders to some of Tanton's other organisations. Agrdeuce (talk) 15:12, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

File:Jt main photo for wikipedia.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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discussion of recent revisions

Hi:

On 09:57, 3 October 2008, I made a number of additions and revisions to the site. I'm fairly new to editing Wikipedia, however I think I made changes correctly.

On 14:01, 4 October 2008 Will Beback made additional revisions, including removing some of the material I added. Here is the diff: [3]. I have the following questions/discussion regarding those revisions, as follows:

1. The bottom category of population was removed. This does not make sense. Indeed, the main article text includes emphasis of population/overpopulation.

2. I had added reference links to organization's websites in the first three paragraphs. These were removed. Why were they removed? Were they not in the correct Wikipedia format?

3. The second paragraph in the Life section contained "He received an M.S. in Ophthalmology". My understanding is that this will create a link to the Wikipedia page on Ophthalmology. However, the brackets were removed. Why?

4. In the middle of the page, the text read: In 1994, Tanton co-authored the book The Immigration Invasion

The reference linked to a page containing more information about the book. The reference was deleted. Why?

5. I had added a long list of organizations in which Tanton was not just a member, but organizer, chairman, president, etc. This list serves to illustrate Tanton's incredible energy, his focus on environmental issues, and his involvement in the community. This list was deleted. Why?

6. In Line 96 of the original revisions I made (see the diff), I had the following: Common Sense on Mass Immigration, published by John Tanton's The Social Contract is an introductory collection of mini-essays in 40-page softcover pocket-sized booklet.

This was changed to * Common Sense on Mass Immigration

The original link linked to a website where people could read the material both in html format and as a pdf document. The change linked only to the pdf version. Why?

7. In the final Categories section, the original text read: Tanton, John

this was changed to Category:American non-fiction environmental writers

I do not understand the syntax of the original text, nor the reason for the change.

Thanks,

Fred Fred Elbel (talk) 15:40, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

1. Category: Population is a very broad category. If a writer talks about oceans we don't categorize them under "oceans". A more specific category would fit better. Category:Demographers?

2. The references didn't support the assertions that they followed. If a sentence says "Smith was CEO of Smith Co.[1]", the footnote should go to a page that mentions his time as CEO, not to Smith Co's home page.

3. Typically, a term is linked the first time it is used. The link was moved to the first sentence, "John H. Tanton, M.D., is a retired opthalmologist from ..."

4. The ISBN number automatically takes readers to a booklisting in whichever bookseller or library they prefer. Because of that we don't link to individual booksellers. If there's additional information about the book that's relevant perhaps it should be added here.

5. The intro said, "Tanton has been involved with the following organizations:". Wikipedia is not a CV. It'd be better if the list were limited to the organizations that he organized rather than those in which he was just a member. There was a lawsuit in there to0, which seems out of place.

6. If the point of a link is to take people to a pamphlet by Tanton then it's best to do so directly. WP:EL governs linking to sites, and 3rd party blogs, etc, are discouraged. However if there is an HTML link that should be added too.

7. The {{defaultsort}} code handles category sorting. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:38, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

This article has devolved to the point where it reads like an SPLC article. As such, it fails WP:POV, as well as WP:BLP. SPLC is not a reliable source on this person, especially given that it has taken an active position on US immigration policy diametrically opposed to that of this person. Ron (talk) 04:09, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

References

Orphan sources

(2) Tanton, John. Tribute to Garrett Hardin by John Tanton. Garrett Hardin Society

(3) About Us. The Social Contract http://www.thesocialcontract.com/aboutus.html

(4) Pro-English Board of Directors. Pro-English http://www.pro-english.com/board/tanton.html

(5) FAIR Board of Directors Bios. FAIR http://www.fairus.org/About/About.cfm?ID=356&c=21

(6) John and Mary Lou Tanton's Resumes. Social Contract Press www.thesocialcontract.com/tantonresume.html

(9) Kolankiewicz, Leon and Roy Beck, Forsaking Fundamentals: The Environmental Establishment Abandons U.S. Population Stabilization, Center for Immigration Studies, March 2001 http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/forsaking/why.html

(10) Tanton, John. Memo to WITAN IV Attendees from John Tanton, Southern Poverty Law Center http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=125

(11) John Tanton, "The Puppeteer Replies," January 22, 2003, The Social Contract Press www.thesocialcontract.com/puppeteer.html

I've moved these from the article. I used a couple as inline citations.   Will Beback  talk  06:20, 12 September 2011 (UTC) {{Help me}} This image has been placed in the free public domain. This is a request for undeletion. How might one make this request? Fred Elbel (talk) 01:51, 9 December 2011 (UTC) Fred Elbel

I will answer on user's talk page.  Chzz  ►  04:56, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

RfC

BAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:52, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

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Death

It does look like he's died (See here, which cites FAIR, one of the groups he founded.) But we should probably wait until a mainstream news outlet picks it up; FAIR isn't exactly a WP:BLP-quality WP:RS. And yes, I know, but BLP still applies for at least a few months. --Aquillion (talk) 07:31, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

The Detroit Free Press has published an obit, so we can update the article with it now. --Aquillion (talk) 18:10, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

"FAIR isn't exactly a WP:BLP-quality WP:RS." If one of the groups he founded isn't an RS on the matter of the man's death, nothing is. And if BLP still applies, why is his entry, which originally respected all WP rules, now so defamatory? 2604:2000:1580:617C:1920:48F:A553:49A1 (talk) 22:08, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

This post seems to violate neutrality.

My familiarity with Mr. Tanton's work is mostly passing, and I don't share any particular allegiance to him one way or another. My personal political views tend towards more pro-immigration and are opposed to any form of eugenics, for what that's worth. Abiding by the principle of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence," this article lacks the measured and objective tone that Wikipedia should be known for. If this were a court of law, most of the descriptions of Mr. Tanton would be rejected as, at best, hearsay, and worst, defamation.

The Southern Poverty Law Center, for whatever its merits, must not be given any more weight than other organizations lest Wikipedia risk engaging in the practice of selective commentary and not as a neutral provider of information. In an effort to find more about this person, I decided to look at what he actually said. His own publications are completely the opposite of how he is described in this article. For example, he states plainly that he is more than ok with "diversity." A white supremacist simply would not be; that's kind of their thing.

Now, you may argue that he is not credible and merely attempting to deceive, but that is to be left to the "jury" of our peers, namely our readers. Before I embark on an effort to re-write this article to be more fair and accurate, I want to make sure the original writers and editors have a moment to comment on the record.

My specific recommendations would be (1) to make it clearer that "white supremacist" is an accusation leveled as a form of "guilt by association" by one organization and explicitly denied by the man himself; (2) to describe his activities as "immigration restrictionist" rather than "anti-immigration" since that is misleading and doesn't capture the nuances of his opinion; (3) drop the "white nationalist" description from the top.

For those of you genuinely concerned with white nationalism and believing, contrary to my own opinion, that Wikipedia should be providing editorial insight and not attempt neutrality, the over-use and misapplication of that label dilute its value and creates an increasing insensitivity to the label. Don't cry wolf. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aharburg (talk • contribs) 17:37, 19 August 2022 (UTC)