Talk:John C. Young (pastor)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:John C. Young (college president)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: An anonymous username, not my real name (talk · contribs) 02:57, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

I'll review this article. --An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 02:57, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

It looks very good already. No issues with the intro, and few throughout the body. All I would suggest:

• If you can find his grandfather's name, it wouldn't hurt to provide it.
• John Borland is mentioned, but his significance (besides educating Young) is never explained.
• "Young's uncle, Matthew St. Clair Clarke, a practicing lawyer and seven-term U.S. House Clerk, offered to mentor him in a law-based profession, but he declined and decided to follow his father into the ministry," This sentence ends with a comma.
• "Young would eventually transfer..." A little awkward; it's probably best to put it in simple past tense.
• "In 1825, Young enrolled at Princeton Theological Seminary, where he would spend three years studying theology and tutoring students at the College of New Jersey (now Princeton University)." Again, simple past tense would be better.
• "...which had graduated just 25 students over the course of its eleven-year history." Ref 6 says 24.
  • I didn't realize it but I guess sources disagree; I've put "24 or 25 students" with one ref for each of those numbers at the end of the sentence. Is that an alright fix? PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 02:16, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• "Young's primary duty as president was raising funds which the college desperately needed; early in his presidency, he went to New York and Philadelphia in an attempt to do so." The part after the semicolon feels clunky. Also his efforts in Philadelphia are not mentioned further.
  • I've split this into two sentences and removed Philly since the sources I found only elaborate on NYC, not Philly. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 02:16, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• "In New York, he was successful, raising $6,000..." The first comma should probably be left out.
• "...all 'taught within a Christian framework.'" Do any of your sources elaborate on his "Christian framework"?
  • This comes from my offline source, the direct quote is as follows: "The faculty taught the young men of Centre College the same thing that college students would learn through most of the 19th century: the Greek and Latin classics, mathematics, some natural science, and a bit of history, all within a Christian framework." The "Christian framework" itself is not elaborated upon - I can try to expand upon this sentence by mentioning the college's affiliation with PCUSA if you think that would be helpful. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 02:16, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• "Centre also graduated a fair proportion of its first notable alumni..." Given what the last sentence was about, "also" doesn't feel right.
• "...the class of 1855 alone consisted of John Y. Brown, Thomas Theodore Crittenden, Boyd Winchester, and William Campbell Preston Breckinridge, among others." If the others are notable, list them. If not, then perhaps reword it as "...the class of 1855 alone included John Y. Brown, Thomas Theodore Crittenden, Boyd Winchester, and William Campbell Preston Breckinridge."
• Speaking of which, maybe name some notable graduates from other years (without getting too trivial, obviously).
• "The couple had four children, all daughters, between 1831 and 1837." Maybe just "four daughters"?
• "Several aspects of life at Centre College still bear Young's name." Perhaps reword as "Several aspects of Centre College are named in honor of Young."

That's my complete review. Good luck! --An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 00:25, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

An anonymous username, not my real name, as far as I can tell, I have addressed everything I can. A few comments above for one or two things that I couldn't quite do exactly. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 02:16, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

It looks excellent now, and the parts you've commented on are fine as they are. I've passed it. --An anonymous username, not my real name (talk) 02:55, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

An anonymous username, not my real name, thank you very much! I appreciate the speedy review. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 03:04, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Pre-FAC comments

Okay, finally starting on this, although it'll be coming in multiple chunks because I have to drive an hour for work in the morning.

• The date of birth should be added to the body, and cited there.
• "He is regarded as one of Centre's best presidents," (from the lead) - you'll be asked to attribute this at FAC, unless there's a RS that specifically states that this is the consensus view (see WP:RS/AC)
• "teaching algebra at his old classical school in New York City " - is this the school that Borland ran?
• "Upon the invitation of John C. Breckinridge, Young moved to Lexington, Kentucky, in 1828" - the linked John C. Breckinridge was 7 in 1828. I think his father, Cabell Breckinridge, could have been known as John C. Breckinridge, but he died in 1823. I know the source provides John C. Breckinridge and links to the VP and CSA officer, but that can't be right. Any other sources speak on the subject?
• " Other graduates during Young's term included John C. Breckinridge (1838)," - Breckinridge can be linked here now, since it doesn't look like the earlier link to Breckinridge is correct
• Is it known why he turned down Transylvania?
• Do you know if the Kentucky Synod mentioned is the Kentucky Synod or the Kentucky Synod (Cumberland Presbyterian Church)? If so, it can be linked (some of my in-laws are Cumberland Presbyterians)

Pausing here for now, will continue. @PCN02WPS: Hog Farm _Talk 05:33, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

• "also bears his name, as does the John C. Young Symposium, where the aforementioned scholars present research and projects which they worked on as a part of the program" - source mentions the symposium, but doesn't refer to it by that specific name
• "longest of any president in Centre's history, just longer than Thomas A. Spragens" - a bit more of a stylistic thing, but I'd drop the "just"
• Anything useful in this source?
• Page 52 of this book says that Old Young burned down. Is this worth mentioning, or possibly WP:UNDUE?
• A quick skim of the image licensing shows no issues

While I would be willing to accept the sources used as reliable enough, expect to have to defend why they are high-quality, not just basic reliable. The sourcing is admittedly a bit on the thin side, but I'm not seeing anything that really could be used that isn't, although I'm not super familiar with searching for sources for obscure 19th-century educators (Ergo Sum?). This is capable of passing FAC, although it'll need to be well-prepared, and I'd recommend giving another check to make sure you've gleaned all the decent sources and have used them thoroughly - see Talk:Socrates Nelson#Continued from WT:FAC discussion of what can go wrong if the article isn't thoroughly polished. I'll do some more source checks once these are worked through. Hog Farm _Talk 03:47, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

@Hog Farm It's been a few weeks and I have addressed what I can at the moment. Everything you mentioned has been fixed/addressed, with the following exceptions. I could not find why he turned down Transylvania, only that he was offered the job but stayed at Centre. My other issue is the "one of Centre's best presidents" line - this is from the biography from Centre itself, so would it be more appropriate to say "He is regarded by the college as one of its best presidents" or "Centre regards him as one of its best presidents", or would it be better to drop that line entirely? PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 21:28, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

I'll read back through this, do some more source checks, and look into the best president statement in a couple days. I'm pretty busy with work right now. Hog Farm _Talk 04:03, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

@Hog Farm Sounds good, no rush of course! I found another source, Centre College of Kentucky: A Tradition and an Opportunity (1967) by Hardin Craig, but it doesn't seem to have any information on Young that I didn't already have in the article. I'll see what else I can find online or in our library, and add what I can. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 04:30, 30 March 2022 (UTC)

@PCN02WPS: - got busy again, and won't be able to look at it this weekend. If I haven't checked back by Tuesday or Wednesday, please ping me. Hog Farm _Talk 13:23, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Spot checks

• "Young was born on August 12, 1803" - checks out
• "After the death of his father while John was still an infant, he was raised almost entirely by his mother" - checks out
• "Young's uncle, Matthew St. Clair Clarke, a practicing lawyer and seven-term U.S. House Clerk, offered to mentor him in a law-based profession" - source does not support that Clarke was a seven-term U.S. House Clerk
• " In 1825, Young enrolled at Princeton Theological Seminary, where he spent three years studying theology," - checks out
• "Centre's presidency became vacant in October 1830 when Gideon Blackburn resigned the office" - source doesn't specify October?

I'd recommend going through all of the citations to make sure everything is exactly covered; your sourcing will need to be close to perfect to pass FAC. Hog Farm _Talk 03:14, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

@Hog Farm I know it has been some time since I have talked to you about this article (and honestly it's been some time since I looked at it), but I am making my way through to verify that everything checks out in the source it's listed with. Are there any other things I should check about before taking this to FAC? Thanks a ton. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 22:27, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Fairly busy this week and am somewhat backlogged with things but I'll get to it hopefully next week. Hog Farm _Talk 02:24, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

@Hog Farm Just wanted to check in after a couple weeks to see where you stand on this; no rush if you haven't had the time yet. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 16:54, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Oh shoot. I got busy in RL and forgot about this. I'll give it another content read-through this week. The main thing to watch for is that 1.) you have the topic thoroughly covered and are using any major high-quality RS about him and 2.) the source-text integrity is okay. Both of those latter things you'll be able to better answer than me. Hog Farm _Talk 17:19, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

• @PCN02WPS: - I still think maybe the sourcing needs combed over one more time - from article he taught belles-lettres and political economy when the position was vacant from source He also taught belles lettres and political economy whenever the position was vacant - since this only slightly varies from the source, it would be considered close paraphrasing. Unfortunately, I don't have time right now to go through the referencing here very closely (June through October is very busy for my job with a lot of driving around the Ozarks; I've been running on sweet tea and Casey's pizza for most of the past couple months). Hog Farm _Talk 02:43, 5 October 2022 (UTC)