Talk:John A. McDougall

Death

With a heavy heart, we share the news of Dr. John McDougall’s passing. A visionary physician and author, beloved husband, father, grandfather, brother, mentor and friend, Dr. McDougall died peacefully at his home on Saturday, June 22nd, at the age of 77. Kezzz'd (talk) 17:57, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Died at 77 and was ill was a very long time. It's interesting because a lot of his followers were using this talk-page inappropriately claiming he was going to live to a very old age. We need good WP:RS for his death date. I will look around. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:58, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Will this[1] do? Bon courage (talk) 06:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Plant-based News is a weak source, it is usually removed from Wikipedia but is probably acceptable to use for a death notice or obituary, it's probably worth waiting until they publish better sources on his death. That will probably happen in the next week. Psychologist Guy (talk) 10:51, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

“ It's interesting because a lot of his followers were using this talk-page inappropriately claiming he was going to live to a very old age.”

Surely you must have links to this? 173.49.59.45 (talk) 08:42, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

It's in the archive of this talk-page somewhere if you click on the archives. I have discussed the topic many times with his followers over the years. I called it correctly about a year ago, I knew he was very unwell and wasn't going to make it to old age. Of course his die-hard followers are now all over the Reddit plant-based diet sub claiming he only died at 77 because he ate meat as a teenager. They always have an excuse. The fact that he ate some meat as a teenager has nothing to do with the fact he died at aged 77. It's about long-time lifestyle changes that impact longevity, not things you did briefly for a few years as a teenager. There is also the fact that there are many factors associated with longevity but online today all people want to talk about is diet. Psychologist Guy (talk) 10:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

So… no link? 173.49.59.45 (talk) 16:29, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

He had a massive stroke when he was 19 or 20. A bit more than doing something “briefly”. How would you have been privy to his health records? 172.222.56.202 (talk) 03:14, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Dr. McDougall is dead and in the ground, but yet this poorly presented, biased article lives on, completely unchanged despite abundant constructive criticism over the years. This is an example of the worst of Wikipedia. Jack.B.2007 (talk) Jack.B.2007 (talk) 16:54, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Nobody's produced any evidence of a problem. This guy promoted a dodgy diet, and got called out for it in reliable sources. Wikipedia reflects that. Bon courage (talk) 19:33, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

This page is talked about on the 'Chef AJ Live' show. She mentioned how great this article is by name on her July 1, 2024, show, "In Loving Memory of Dr. John McDougall", at 38 minutes in: "Wikipedia did a horrible job..." I agree, although I might not use the word horrible. Jack.B.2007 (talk) 03:07, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

And this is relevant how? This is WP:NOTAFORUM and dodgy Youtube diet channels are irrelevant to Wikipedia (except maybe when mentioned by reliable sources). Bon courage (talk) 03:32, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Subjective not objective

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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It looks to me like whoever wrote the second paragraph is a staunch meat lover, and anti plant-based eating. I would like to see some edits, such as...

It has been categorized by some as a low-fat fad diet. Other nutrition experts consider it to be an extremely healthy diet. The diet rejects all animal products as well as cooking oils, processed food, alcoholic beverages and caffeinated drinks. As with any low-fat high-fibre plant-based diet, it may lead to weight loss, lowering of cholesterol, and many other health benefits that have been proven by science. Some people who are accustomed to eating animal based products and high-fat, high-sugar or highly processed foods in general may find it a difficult diet to follow, and experience some physical discomfort until their body adjusts. 2604:3D08:447B:1900:4559:D95:A488:BAB9 (talk) 22:30, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Not correct. He was wrong about pretty much everything and the science doesn't support his claims. We have multiple WP:RS noting that his fad diet had no good evidence to support it. Psychologist Guy (talk) 23:31, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. This is definitely a subjective article. I wish more effort was put into briefly explaining the tenants of the diet and less effort put into citing multiple criticisms. I'm neither for nor against this diet, but I don't care for the bias here. That is not why I sought out information on Dr. McDougall. 173.47.45.49 (talk) 00:02, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Tenants? Bon courage (talk) 04:56, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, this is a completely subjective review- from fad diet to the entire last paragraph. There is significant empirical evidence that validates his work. Moreover, Wikipedia shouldn’t represent such bias. 72.73.114.211 (talk) 10:13, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

"There is significant empirical evidence that validates his work" ← citation needed! Bon courage (talk) 12:57, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

"There is significant empirical evidence that validates his work"...Here are five published studies that back John McDougall's 50+ years of treating and curing chronic disease. I could find many, many, more if necessary to help improve the accuracy of this page. [2][3][4][5][6] Annie354 (talk) 18:41, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Those are all unreliable primary sources, WP:MEDRS would be needed for such claims. Bon courage (talk) 18:51, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:MEDRS States that ideal sources for biomedical material include reputable medical journals. NIHis undisputedly reputable which accounts for 4/5 of these sources. The 5th is published on the American Heart Association’s website. All 5 are well within reliable source guidelines. 2600:6C67:517F:4674:8064:1807:1F02:12EA (talk) 19:11, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

There is no clinical evidence that McDougall's diet (or any diet for that matter) has "cured" chronic diseases. The sources listed make no such claims so I doubt Annie354 has read any of them. Two of the sources Annie354 listed are about complete proteins and protein combining. How is this empirical evidence for curing chronic diseases? The other sources are short-term RCTs that do not mention any significant results, merely improvements in BMI. Again, no evidence any chronic disease has been cured on the McDougall diet. Psychologist Guy (talk) 19:20, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

See WP:MEDFAQ#PUBMEDRIGHT Bon courage (talk) 19:22, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Curing chronic disease was not the matter in need of citing. The sources listed were in reference to: "There is significant empirical evidence that validates his work" ← citation needed! Bon courage (talk) 12:57, 26 June 2024 (UTC) Annie354 (talk) 02:51, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

You are moving goal posts and doubling down on your claim. You said there is 50+ years of evidence of McDougall curing chronic disease. You haven't cited a single reliable source for this claim. You now claim to have shown empirical evidence that validates his work but you haven't. You have cited some papers he co-wrote himself. Show us 4 or 5 meta-analyses or systematic review validating his work. There isn't any because his diet has no clinical evidence to support it. Citing his own papers is not evidence. Where is the independent replication? In a nutshell you have not provided any evidence. We have been at this since 2020. Every few months a new user comes to this talk-page and claims there is evidence for the McDougall diet but no reliable medical sources are ever given. Big talk, empty claims. Psychologist Guy (talk) 04:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

This is not "his diet." Whole food, plant based focused? This happens to be the way some societies have eaten for many years (i.e. China, Japan, India) prior to incorporating the western diet (eggs, meat, fish, etc) thus experiencing an increase in ailments, cited by the NIH: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10302286/. McDougall had acknowledged that this way of eating has been around for a long time and is not a "new" or "fad" diet. He observed an example of this when he served as a medical doctor years ago in Hawaii. He stated in his writings that he noticed the older generation patients (who ate the traditional whole food plant based diet) were virile and healthy but many of his younger generation patients (who ate a western diet) were obese and needed medication. This lead him to explore what the older patients were doing differently. The difference was what they put into their bodies. The food. He didn't claim it was "his" diet. He simply promoted a way of eating that has been around a very long time and wanted others to recognize the health benefits along with Dr Caldwell Esselstyn, Dr. Dean Ornish, Dr.Michael Greger, and Dr. Colin Campbell to name a few. MWiki65 (talk) 00:27, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Your claims are not supported by reliable sources are are flat out wrong. China/Japan/India "whole-food plant-based" who never ate any animal products? China and Japan have always been huge meat consumers, back in the 1960s China was the second largest country for egg and poultry consumption and now they are the largest [7], [8]. Japan in the 1960s apart from Iceland had the highest fish and seafood consumption per capita [9] in the world.

Obviously you haven't read the paper you cited, it is not blaming fish or eggs on increase in ailments, it is blaming processed "fast foods" and sugar-sweetened beverages. The same paper you also cite says "Nutritional guidelines recommend eating a diet high in fish, whole grains, vegetables and fruits , legumes, and nuts to reduce the risk of developing atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease (ASCVD)". A diet high in fish and nuts - two foods which are banned on the McDougall diet. The paper you are citing does not support anything you are claiming, it actually contradicts your argument. More importantly it does not mention McDougall so what you are citing is WP:OR. Psychologist Guy (talk) 01:02, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 25 June 2024

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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"It has been categorized as a low-fat fad diet.[2] The diet rejects all animal products as well as cooking oils, processed food, alcoholic beverages and caffeinated drinks. As with any restrictive low-fat diet, it may lead to flatulence, possibly poor mineral absorption from excess fiber, and limited food choices that may lead to a feeling of deprivation.[2]"

1. Change "fad" to "starch-based".

2. Remove "processed food, alcoholic beverages and caffeinated drinks". End sentence after "cooking oils".

3. Remove sentence "As with any restrictive low-fat diet , it may lead to flatulence, possibly poor mineral absorption from excess fiber, and limited food choices that may lead to a feeling of deprivation.[2]" Replace above sentence with, "His dietary recommendations have been used to reverse and prevent chronic illnesses for over 50 years". Taterslayer (talk) 22:40, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The text would appear to be supported by the cited sources. PianoDan (talk) 22:59, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Where’s the source that it’s a fad diet?

also, it’s not appropriate to add “ As with any restrictive low-fat diet , it may lead to flatulence, possibly poor mineral absorption from excess fiber, and limited food choices that may lead to a feeling of deprivation” in a Wikipedia page. This isn’t a school of learning. Absolutely inappropriate. It needs removed. 47.215.74.175 (talk) 14:27, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 2 July 2024

Remove It has been categorized as a low-fat fad diet.[2] The diet rejects all animal products as well as cooking oils, processed food, alcoholic beverages and caffeinated drinks. As with any restrictive low-fat diet, it may lead to flatulence, possibly poor mineral absorption from excess fiber, and limited food choices that may lead to a feeling of deprivation.[2]

REASONS: 2013 Wardlaw's Nutrition textbook is out of date. The current 2024 Wardlaw's Contemporary Nutrition: A Functional Approach, 7th edition does NOT discuss or criticize the McDougall Program

Remove LAST PARAGRAPHS In 1992, nutritionist Kurt Butler described McDougall's ideas as "vegetarian extremism" and McDougall as "Americas most influential vegan zealot" who has taken the low-fat vegetarian diet to extremes.[4] He also suggested that McDougall's diet may increase the risk of calcium and iron deficiency and is not safe for children.[4]

Reviewing McDougall's book The McDougall Program for Maximum Weight Loss, nutritionist Fredrick J. Stare and epidemiologist Elizabeth Whelan criticized its restrictive regime and "poor advice", concluding that the diet's concepts were "extreme and out of keeping with nutritional reality". The authors state that failure to consume dairy products creates a risk for osteoporosis, and that if animal products cannot be replaced with peanut butter and soybean foods, vegans may not obtain enough protein.[19] Reviewing The McDougall Program: 12 Days to Dynamic Health, doctor Harriet Hall wrote that the book is filled with anecdotes and questionable statements, and that it makes many claims which are not supported by science.[13] Hall concluded that "Some of McDougall’s recommendations are in line with mainstream advice, but there is reason to fear that strict adherence to his whole Program might result in nutritional deficits that could do more harm than good."[13]

McDougall's diet was studied as a potential treatment for relapsing remitting multiple sclerosis, but showed no changes in brain MRI outcomes, MS relapses or disability.[20]

REASON out of date negative criticisms of a vegan diet not in line with current AMA recommendations. The anti-vegan claims written are unsubstantiated and already mentioned in other places in this article. WFPB Vegan (talk) 21:18, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Geardona (talk to me?) 23:53, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Remove (Repeat Request or change wording to accurately reflect Wardlaw's 2013 nutrition textbook categorized the McDougall program as a fad diet, but the current 2024 Wardlaw's nutrition book removed the "fad" designation.) It has been categorized as a low-fat fad diet.[2] The diet rejects all animal products as well as cooking oils, processed food, alcoholic beverages and caffeinated drinks. As with any restrictive low-fat diet, it may lead to flatulence, possibly poor mineral absorption from excess fiber, and limited food choices that may lead to a feeling of deprivation.[2]

REASONS: 2013 Wardlaw's Nutrition textbook is out of date. The current 2024 Wardlaw's Contemporary Nutrition: A Functional Approach, 7th edition does NOT discuss or criticize the McDougall Program — Preceding unsigned comment added by WFPB Vegan (talk • contribs) 11:00, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Invalid reasons. Firstly as noted by another user on this talk-page you have confused these textbooks. Wardlaw's Perspectives in Nutrition is not the same book as Wardlaw's Contemporary Nutrition: A Functional Approach. Also your claims about the AMA recommendations are not sourced. By AMA you probably mean the American Heart Association (AHA). The AHA do not recommend the McDougall diet [10], in 2023 they scored the McDougall diet in accord with their recommendations, the score was 72%. The McDougall diet bans all vegetable oils, nuts, seeds and avocadoes that is not in line with any guidelines. As the AHA note "the most defining feature of this pattern is its severe restriction of dietary fat, that is, limiting or avoiding high-fat plant foods such as nuts, seeds, avocados, and liquid plant oils, which are currently viewed as important characteristics to consider when evaluating overall nutrient adequacy and alignment with features of the 2021 AHA Dietary Guidance". The DASH diet obtained a score of 100%. Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:58, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Removal of word "fad" diet from old textbook. Current textbook does not negatively describe the McDougall program

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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John A. McDougall (May 17, 1947 – June 22, 2024) was an American physician and author. He wrote a number of diet books advocating the consumption of a low-fat vegan diet based on starchy foods and vegetables.

His eponymous diet, called The McDougall Plan was a New York Times bestseller. The diet rejects all animal products as well as cooking oils, processed food, alcoholic beverages and caffeinated drinks.

References

 Not done: Forget the edition. You've got the wrong title. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:34, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Early life and background

Dr. John McDougall was raised in the suburbs of Detroit, Michigan. He suffered a massive stroke in 1965 at the age of 18. https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2009nl/apr/why.htm His doctors at the time were not able to explain why he had a stroke which propelled McDougall to pursue his studies in the field of medicine to become a medical doctor. During his early years working as a doctor on the Hamakua Sugar plantation in Hawaii, Dr. McDoughall made an observation: his elderly patients, who ate a traditional plant based diet,had few medical ailments and were on no medication. However, many of his younger generation patients, who ate a standard American diet (meat, dairy, eggs, oil, butter) were obese and were in need of his medical attention and intervention. This observation, prompted Dr. McDougall to further research whole food plant based diets (rice, potatoes, corn, vegetables) and discovered that this is the diet of many traditional communities and noticed a correlation between diet and chronic disease https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK305175/ MWiki65 (talk) 12:09, 7 July 2024 (UTC). This further prompted his interest in learning more about whole food plant based diets and their connection to extending the healthly active years of life. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8210981/

drmcdougall.com is not a reliable source. If he had a "massive stroke at the age of 18" then a good secondary source is needed for this claim. You link to the book "A Framework for Assessing Effects of the Food System" on PubMed which is a good source but this source does not mention John A. McDougall. Please read WP:OR, we are not going to cite original research. The other source you link to does not mention McDougall, the source also fails WP:MEDRS. Psychologist Guy (talk) 21:48, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

My ineptness to provide the NIH studies that exist of the health benefits of eating a Whole Food Plant Based (WFPB) diet that Dr. McDougall promoted in order to satisfy Wikipedia does not negate the studies that do exist which demonstrate the health benefits of WFPB. It simply demonstrates my ineptness to provide the studies in this discussion. Psychologist Guy's ineptness to be kind in their earlier responses remain. Sending health, healing and kindness their way. MWiki65 (talk) 13:42, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Per our original research policy we can't cite a source that does not mention McDougall. The diet that McDougall was promoting was not a typical whole food plant-based diet so it is also WP:OR to try and classify it with other plant-based diets that include nuts, seeds and oils. The McDougall diet was very-low fat and 90% starch based diet that banned all nuts, seeds, avocados, soy, nutritional supplements, protein powders and healthy fats. It has not been demonstrated that the diet is healthy and you have not provided on-topic references for that claim. If you do know of any on-topic sources please feel free to list them. Psychologist Guy (talk) 14:45, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Article not neutral but biased against plant-based diets

I suggest adding a more balanced study that shows that MS patients experienced improvement in their symptoms after following a low-fat, plant-based diet such as this one https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27645350/. Also, Dr. Dean Ornish, who promotes a similar diet to the McDougall diet, has published several studies showing positive outcomes in prostate cancer patients https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16094059/. Thank you for your consideration. Librarymomma (talk) 17:50, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

27645350 is a single RCT, we are not going to link to one trial that McDougall conducted. Per WP:MEDRS we need a secondary source, for example a good review of trials. The other paper you cite also fails WP:MEDRS. The Ornish diet is quite different to what McDougall promoted - it includes low-fat dairy products (2 servings per day), egg whites, fish oil supplements and canola oil. It would be original research to mention it on the article. Psychologist Guy (talk) 18:13, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Dr. Ornish's studies on prostate cancer and cognitive impairment don't include any animal products, but since he authored both studies, I'm guessing they, too, would be considered original research. Thanks, though, for addressing my concerns. Librarymomma (talk) 22:15, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:MEDRS we wouldn't cite a single trial, we need a good review. The experimental group from the Dean Ornish trial from 2005 you cited were given a "vegan diet supplemented with soy (tofu)", fish oil, fortified soy protein powder and vitamin supplements (vitamin E, selenium) [11]. It is incorrect to call this diet "vegan" because it included fish oil but that is of minor importance. It is very different to what McDougall was promoting. John A. McDougall was anti-protein powder, anti-soy, anti-fish oil and anti-vitamin supplements. He claimed incorrectly they cause cancer. Most people who claim to support McDougall's diet haven't really read his publications and his extreme claims going back 20 years. He was nearly anti-everything on the topic of food. It's funny when new accounts join this talk-page and try and pretend what he was promoting was normal or rational. Dean Ornish's recommendations are more sensible. Psychologist Guy (talk) 23:15, 13 July 2024 (UTC)