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removed

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I removed inappropriate Reference: *Orkin, Jenna. "9/11, Ten Million Dollars and Twelve Foot Reptiles in the Royal Family", World Trade Center Environmental Organization, undated, retrieved March 4, 2006 It has nothing to do with James W. Walter. H0riz0n 04:13, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This page is very difficult to read

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This page is very difficult to read. To start with, there are two sections containing the exact same material (copy & paste error, perhaps?) as well as numerous grammatical and spelling mistakes. Isopropyl 00:19, 27 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The sections that were duplicated have since been removed. Now, the grammar needs to be cleaned up, and the formatting made clearer. As written, the article is somewhat confusing. Thanks! Please refrain from disrupting Wikipedia to make a point. See WP:POINT. Isopropyl 03:39, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

reverted

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I have reverted Jimmywalter's massive diatribe that was inserted into the page on 3 March. Isopropyl 03:44, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tidied

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I've tried to tidy the page up a bit. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:59, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Protected

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I semi-protected this article because Walter continues to add legal threats and personal commentary to it. Please read Wikipedia:No legal threats and Wikipedia:Autobiography. You are welcome to suggest improvements or factual corrections to this article, but further legal threats will just result in more blocks. Mr. Walter, you could have made constructive suggestions on this talk page, or sent an e-mail to Wikipedia's help desk. Instead of taking these first steps, you immediately started adding inappropriate personal commentary to the article, and issuing legal threats. Rhobite 19:21, 4 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

page that was submitted that caused all the controvery

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Below is the previous page that was submitted that caused all the controvery... I personally see no reason why his person info cant be added. Its not like we have a limited space issue. h0riz0n, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I removed the full text of the page, because (a) it's available in the page history and (b) it contains legal threats. If you don't understand why this text shouldn't be in the article, please read Wikipedia:Autobiography as well as Wikipedia:No legal threats. Also remember that Wikipedia articles do not contain personal commentary or first-person text. Rhobite 03:27, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, this is a democracy not an autocrasy-- so comment on what you want to delete and let others add their input before it is deleted. I re-added the full text of the page, because (a) tho it's available in the page history it cant be discussed and we should discuss it and (b) it contains NO legal threats that I can see. Please show me where the below article violates the Wikipedia:No legal threats policy. Also where is the personal commentary or first-person text within this article? We should discuss a each section and clean it up and add it to the main page. h0riz0n 03:40, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, Wikipedia is not a democracy. See Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. Article edits don't need to be approved by vote. Obviously, there are no legal threats or personal commentaries below, since you left out the "Critique" section this time. Previously you posted that section, which accuses Wikipedia of libel. Anyone who is familiar with Wikipedia guidelines should see that the text below is not suitable for inclusion. It has nothing to do with space constraints. This text should not be included because it openly praises Walter ("Mr. Walter has extensive experience in starting and operating small businesses"). It calls him "skilled", says his novel is "intriguing", etc. The rest of the article is just his resume, which is also inappropriate for including in an encyclopedia article. And the "critique" section, which you previously posted to this talk page, is a first-person commentary by Walter. For these reasons, I support the current version of the article. If there's anything in Walter's version that you'd like to incorporate here, feel free, but please don't revert to his version as it has clear POV problems. Rhobite 04:03, 5 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sure you can edit the points on the main page as you wish...and if you noticed I did touch them... yet; but this is the discussion pages discussion implies the merits of a "democracy:" The discussion page is a system where the population of wiki (a society) controls the content(government) of the main pages. Wiki calls them "a special type of namespace pages, used to discuss changes on the corresponding "main" article or page." Your deletion of the points that I want to disccuss in the discussion page is against the spirit of wiki and the page. I want to discuss each section and get up a version that merits all points of views not just yours. H0riz0n 00:22, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Rhobite can you show us where on Wiki it says resume info, as you put it, is inappropriate for including in a wikipedia article. If someone is doing research on a person having the details found in a resume would be extremely useful and I would argue the only reason its not traditionally found in an encyclopedia article has more to do with space limitation and not because of "inappropriateness." Factual infomation is appropriate in an encylopedia and should be added where possible. Wouldnt it be great if we had Shakespeare resume or Socrates?! H0riz0n

James W. Walter

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For the industrialist founder of Jim Walter Homes and father of James W. Walter, see James W. Walter, Sr. James (Jimmy) W. Walter of Amsterdam, Netherlands and Vienna, Austria is a venture capitalist and political activist of the United States who is a proponent of 9/11 conspiracy theories. In December of 2004, he offered a $100,000 reward (increased to $1 million in September 2005) to anyone who can prove that the attacks were carried out as described by the September 11 Commission. He has left the USA due to violent attacks against him and his property[1] and public threats made against him and Eric Hufschmid by Penn and Teller on national TV[2]. Mr Walter commissioned a Zogby Poll which showed that 66% of New Yorkers wanted the 9/11 investigation reopened and that over 49% thought members of the administration knew about it ahead of time and let it happen[ http://www.reopen911.org/Zogby.htm]. He also developed the Walden Three, a model for cities and societies of the future.

James W. Walter discussion

  • I see nothing wrong with leaving the above pretty much as it stands. Maybe remove the word "violent" If Pen and Teller made attacks against him I curious how Teller did it... maybe add Penn and Teller Show. I can imagine that this comment will rattle feathers, especially fans, but I personally feel that the living person should respectfully be given a bit of leanience over a page about him...(its only British :p). If he says he left because of threats then I think it should be kept in. Its like saying Shakepeare being alive and stating "Shakespeare was gay." in his own wikipage about him. In the case of living I thik we should allow them the benefit of the doubt. H0riz0n 00:38, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Vitae

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James W. Walter, (II*) is currently working on the utopian novel, Walden Three, an intriguing coming-of-age story set in a prison and corrections system containing a practical manual on the creation and operation of a contemporary, sustainable utopia. The novel and accompanying literature covers the psychological and social aspects as well as the mechanics and scientific methods of the project. Mr. Walter has extensive experience in starting and operating small businesses, as well as a broad knowledge of finance and financial markets. He is skilled in writing and computer science; and is well versed in psychology, economics, behavior management, religion, and philosophy. Walter founded the Life Skills Foundation in an effort to help people of lower socio-economic status, primarily the incarcerated and those on government assistance programs. Clubs: James Walter is a member of the Americans for Democratic Action, Institute for Ethics and Meaning, Democratic National Committee, Florida Democratic Party, Hillsborough County Democratic Party, Social Democrats of America, Metropolitan Museum of Art (NYC), Museum of Modern Art (NYC), WEDU Foundation, WUSF TV Foundation, and WUSF Radio Foundation. Walter was born in Tampa, Florida in 1947, and is unmarried with no children. He is the son of industrialist, Jim Walter, of Jim Walter Homes, Celotex, Walter Industries, U.S. Pipe and Foundry.


Vitae discussion

  • I think editing out "extensive" is silly. should we edit out adjectives out of ALL the other pages...plato, shakespeare, etc... Hes a millionaire, obviously successful, I think its fine to let this stand. Just as saying shakespeare is a prolific writer should shand due to the scope of his work. H0riz0n 00:47, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, we should edit out all subjective adjectives. See Wikipedia:Avoid peacock terms. Rhobite 01:40, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Work History

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2002 - President Reopen911.org 2001 – Walden Three President 2000 – 2001 Acadia Board CFO Limited Partner 1999 – 2000 Jim Walter Technologies Life Skills Foundation Founder and Chairman Tampa, Florida Non-profit educational organization Trained more than 20,000 Florida Dept. corrections inmates, and 3,000 welfare recipients 1992- 1993 Institute for Rational Living (Florida Branch) Administrative Director Tampa, Florida Non-profit psychology education and therapy Organization 1985-1992 Venture Capitalist and author in Hong Kong and China Hong Kong Territory, UK (now HK Special Administrative Region (SAR), Asia Vision, Inc. Interstar Music, Inc. Brown's Wine bar New Hong Kong, Ltd. Collaborated on Banzai You Bastards, true story of Jack Edwards, held POW by Japanese during W.W.II in Taiwan. 1981-1985 Advantage Systems Tampa, Florida Founder and President Computer Sales and Support 1978-1981 Arch Roberts & Co. Design & Install Computerized Back Office St. Petersburg, Florida Municipal Bond Dealer 1975-1981 Walter-Ashebrenner Enterprises Tampa, Florida Partner Automobile Wholesale Enterprise 1973-1975 Great American Photon Fuel Company Tampa, Florida Founder and President Solar Energy Research and Development 1971-1973 Joe Snyder & Company New York, NY Vice President Financial Public Relations 1969-1971 Jim Walter Corporation, now Walter Industries Tampa, Florida Management Trainee

Work History discussion

Awards and Honors

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1966 Phi Eta Sigma (freshman Honors Society) University of North Carolina 1965 Awarded Morehead Scholarship University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, North Carolina Graduated Cum Laude

Awards and Honors discussion

  • I see no reason not to include this section. Maybe this section and edication could be combined.

Education

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1965-1969 University of North Carolina Chapel Hill, North Carolina Phi Eta Sigma (freshman Honors Society) B.S. in Business Administration 1961-1965 Asheville School for Boys Asheville, North Carolina Graduated Cum Laude

Education discussion

  • I think there is nothing wrong with adding this section. H0riz0n 01:31, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Again, WP:NOT. We are here to document what makes people notable, not to document all trivial facts about a person. It's fine to note that he attended UNC. It's not fine to say that he had a job "Designing and installing computerized back office" in 1978. Rhobite 01:40, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I dont see your arguement Rhobite. Facts arn't trivial and as you said below as long as they can be verified its ok to add. Are you saying these facts arnt verifiable? Also you might not want to take the literal verifiable arguement, because it would mean you better start deleting... Why dont we just say Shakepeare was born in England... why even mention stratford? Why even mention dates... My point is this what is so wrong with adding detail if detail is there to be had? Im confused where does it say in Education he had a job "Designing and installing computerized back office" in 1978. ??? H0riz0n
    It says that right in his resume, which he posted to this article. If you think that omitting a 9/11 conspiracy theorist's full work history is as egregious as omitting Shakespeare's place of birth, then this discussion is pointless. There are grey areas in terms of what is a notable fact, but this isn't one of them. James Walter's full work history isn't of interest to a single encyclopedia reader.. apparently, you didn't even read it when it was in the article. If he suddenly becomes as famous as Shakespeare, then we can reconsider. Rhobite 03:26, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    So it comes down to "labelling" people. My arguement is that BOTH facts are equally important and we shouldnt weigh them. Facts are facts arnt they? Whether Shakespeares or his. Finally, this discussion is on the topic of his "Education" as viewed above not previous edits. How can you honestly make such a blanket statement like: "James Walter's full work history isn't of interest to a single encyclopedia reader.." H0riz0n
    If I can verify what I ate for lunch today (ham sandwich), do you think that it deserves an encyclopedia article? Even if you said yes, most Wikipedians would disagree with you. The fact is, Wikipedia articles focus on relevant, verifiable information. His work history isn't of interest to a single person - you didn't even bother to read it, and you're the one defending it.
    Anyway, this is a bizarre discussion, and I'm about done with it. If there's anything you'd like to add to this article, please Wikipedia:Be bold but always remember the verifiability policy. Rhobite 03:46, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree with you about the bizarreness of your direction for thinking ham sandwiches relate to academic facts. I am talking about the above topic heading "Education". This is factual info not ham sandwiches. Why should it not be added? I will wait to see what others have to say about it H0riz0n 03:56, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • So it's OK for you to equate this 9/11 conspiracy guy with Shakespeare, but it's not OK for me to draw a comparison to my delicious lunch? That's a double standard. Rhobite 03:59, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • How about these very accredited university professors are they all VERY credible "conspiracy guys": Prof. David Ray Griffin, Professor of Philosophy of Religion Claremont University; Prof. [James H. Fetzer], Distinguished [McKnight University Professor]; and Prof. [Steven E. Jones], Department of Physics and Astronomy. [Brigham Young University]. Should we delete their education credentials too, because they too are just "conspiracy guys"? Btw, the us of "distinguished" wasnt my term it was used associated with the university...should I delete it? How can I prove it...hmmm H0riz0n

Critque

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Rant removed

Critque discussion I do agree with removing this section because it's a rant. What I would suggest is that this information could be placed in Mr. Walter's "my talk" page or better on a blog. H0riz0n 01:28, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mr. Walter is free to place that information wherever he feels like, as long as it's not in a Wikipedia article and it doesn't contain legal threats. Rhobite 01:40, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I would like to see a continued entry for jimmy walter, as he is an important member of the 911 truth movement, a serious movement, with serious people, not to be classed alongside speculitive movements, like Rosewell/UFO's et cetera —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.154.145.195 (talk • contribs)
I do agree with User:Rhobite, the above deleted section was a rant, and IMHO an incredibly arrogant rant:
I have done more to make the movement known worldwide than any other person. We have had over 30,000,000 hits on our site, spreading the word worldwide. I have received tens of thousands of emails saying that I am a hero to many in Europe, South America, and the USA.
Signed: RWV 16:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"debunkings of theories promoted on Walters website"

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The problem I have with the links isn't even that they aren't up to the quality of the other references in the article, but that they aren't about James W. Walter, which is, after all, what the article is supposed to be about. That makes them tangential to the article.

  1. http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/MiniNukeHypoth_Jones_300906.html - the name "Walter" isn't to be found anywhere on the page. The nukes hypothesis isn't discussed anywhere in our article.
  2. http://www.oilempire.us/pentagon.html - One tiny section mentions Walter, the rest is a grab bag of other discussion
  3. http://911review.com/errors/phantom/index.html - the name "Walter" isn't to be found anywhere on the page.

Debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories in general is fine on the 9/11 conspiracy theories page. This is the page about one specific theorist, namely James W. Walter. Entries on the page should be about him. AnonEMouse (squeak) 17:02, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What's important for people to understand is that the theories that are promoted on his website are considered to be unsupported by the evidence by some major people in the movement - Hoffman, Jones, Griffin, etc. - so to put them out there with no qualification, as though everyone agrees, is incorrect. I'm fine with not posting any links, but generally when I make a statement like this I'm asked for links to show evidence of the assertion. I know of people who have refused free trips abroad to speak with him because they refuse to go along with the nonsense he promotes about mini-nukes and no-plane theories. I don't care if it's linked to debunking pages or not, but then where does one show that others do not agree? If we cannot link to any 9/11 "conspiracy" sites to talk about the content of the 9/11 theories which Walters supports, than we are operating in a vaccuum. What's the solution here? To say nothing is simply to put out a false impression that others agree with him, when they clearly do not. bov 21:03, 25 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That would be a good point, but I'm not sure where in the article it implies that these others agree with him, and they certainly aren't mentioned by name. I don't think it even mentions him in relationship to any organized movement as such, primarily because I didn't find any reliable sources talking about him and the movement. AnonEMouse (squeak) 22:13, 30 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Article Name

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What should the article name be? Let's see who mostly calls him what:

James W.
Jimmy
Both ways
  • St Petersburg Times James "Jimmy" W. Walter Jr. - They also call him James Walter Jr. and quote someone calling him Jimmy.
  • CNN 1 James Walters (!), Jimmy Walter, JAMES W. WALTER

I count a clear majority for Jimmy, in addition to the fact that it's his personal home page, and it's unambiguous with his father. On the other side is that the NYT is possibly the single most prestigious source, but Der Spiegel and ABC are nothing to sneeze at either. So I'll be wp:bold and move the article to Jimmy Walters. Hopefully there aren't many objections, if there are we can discuss or move it back. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 13:44, 25 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of fixin' needed here.

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  • (First, source does not say mild, statement is redundant and POV since the *vast* majority of TS is mild anyway) - Actually the source specifically says, "Walter has Tourette's Syndrome, not the curse-out-loud type". "Mild" is a perfectly adequate paraphrase, and I will not go into details on "the vast majority of TS" here, that's not the focus of this article. It is sufficient to specify that Walter does not fit the classic "barking and swearing" image of TS, however common that is in actuality, and using the word "mild" does that in four letters. BTW, the NYTimes article also mentions him having TS, if you're interested.
  • Was that your text, AnonEMouse? <eeeeeek> "Mild", "moderate" and "severe" TS are measured specifically according to severity, frequency, number, type of tics, etc. by the YGTSS—Yale Global Tic Severity Scale; the source doesn't say anything about the severity of his tics or the severity of his tics in childhood, when tics peak. In fact, it doesn't classify the severity of his TS at all; it says he doesn't have coprolalia, which less than 15% of people with TS have anyway. Coprolalia may contribute to TS being classified as "moderate" or "severe", but there are people with "moderate" and "severe" TS who do not have coprolalia, just as there are people with coprolalia who do not have severe TS. For us to classify the severity of his TS in any way is original research. If we must find a way to paraphrase the "not the curse out loud type", calling it "mild" would still be original research based on public myth and misconception about the condition and about coprolalia. One correct way of saying what you want to say and staying true to the source would be to simply state it factually; he does not have coprolalia. The source does not discuss the severity of his TS, and the severity of TS is measured by much more than the presence or not of coprolalia. We can find a way to say this without using the incorrect "mild". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:29, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • (Next, the article does *not* say that Tourette's makes him emotionally volatile, an inaccurate statement.) I'll accept that; I read too much into it.
  • (and, the article doesn't say that either.) It does, actually. "I'll yell and scream," he says, "but it's gotten to the point where I realize what's happening and just try to get up and leave." I'll concede that doesn't say he can control his twitches, but it does say he can control his outbursts. It also implies that he can better control his physical TS symptoms ("I wasn't diagnosed with Tourette's until 35, so I couldn't sit still. I would grind my teeth." - the "wasn't diagnosed...so couldn't sit still" clearly implies that since the diagnosis he can sit still) but I will also concede it doesn't say so outright.
  • Outbursts is a loaded word here; the source doesn't use the word outbursts to describe him or his tics. *Control* is another loaded word, due to the unvoluntary nature of tics. As possible alternates, you may want to consider vocalizations in place of outbursts and manage in place of control. Further, considering he acknowledges an addiction to cocaine in the NYT article, his movements and restlessness cannot all be attributed to Tourette's anyway; cocaine addiction would be an alternate explanation and is a secondary cause of tics (tourettism), so the utmost care is needed to get accurate wording here. No, considering his cocaine addiction, you cannot draw conclusions about his restlessness or his movements or vocalizations, and doing so beyond what the sources say would be original research. I know that wasn't the intent; most people don't know that cocaine is a secondary cause of tics, that most TS is "mild", and that coprolalia is a rarity. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:29, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let's see if we can split the difference. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 14:49, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Several of the words used here have specific medical meaning and interpretation with respect to TS, so I'd like to stick very closely to the sources, so as not to further misconceptions about TS, particularly when complicated by a cocaine addiction (see tourettism). I am not happy with either "mild form" (that is a medical distinction which is not made in the article, besides that it's redundant, most TS is mild, severe TS and coprolalia are the rarities) or "outbursts" as that is a loaded way to describe tics. Can you please give the rewording another shot? I'm sure you wouldn't want to leave inaccurate representations about people wit TS based on this Walter fellow and his cocaine addiction. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:29, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know whether to be ashamed at my imperfections, or flattered that I was assumed to be perfect before. :-) If you want to retain some good impression of me, look at the article before I rewrote it. [3] At least I hope I improved it somewhat.
The article is about Walter, not about TS, so should not assume the reader is knowledgeable about or primarily interested in TS. Walter was, for example, good at math in High School, but the article is surely not required to go into details of advanced mathematics or assume that the reader is measuring "good" on some advanced mathematical scale, which I am sure exists. If you can expand on the TS stuff to make it accurate for the medical professional while still understandable to the lay reader, please do, with my blessings. But my knowledge of TS is merely that of the common or lay mouse, and I think that is whom we have to write for. If we have to choose between the two, we need to make it understandable for the lay reader. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 15:38, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You're still perfect :-) The way I had left it before was brief, but not inaccurate; would you be satisfied to undo this revision, or do you think further explanation is needed? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:46, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I can accept using a different word than "mild" for the TS. I do want to say something about him having issues with yelling and screaming, and being able to control them, though; I think that's worth a sentence in some form. What can we say other than "outbursts"? --AnonEMouse (squeak) 15:53, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hang on, I'm checking the source again, but my usual inclination would be the NPOV word vocalizations. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:57, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK, we now have: "At the age of 35, Walter was diagnosed with a form of Tourette syndrome which makes him restless and twitchy. He has been described as combustible, but is usually able to control his outbursts." "A form of" is slightly misleading. Tourette's is Tourette's; coprolalia is another symptom (which by the way is present in other conditions). There's no such thing as "a form of": you either meet the diagnostic criteria or you don't and the DSM makes no distinction as to subtypes. I'm OK with the wording "which makes him restless and twitchy" (even though there was a cocaine addiction) because that is supported by the source. However, joining the phrases as I had before with semi-colons is a way to not draw a specific connection between the two which may not be there, considering the cocaine issue. I'm still not wild about "outbursts", but considering the wording in the source, "vocalizations" may be too mild, and I can't come up with a word that's inbetween and more neutral. The issue here is that the past cocaine abuse is *highly* likely to be the main factor in his symptoms, much more than the TS: 1) it would have left him with increased symptomatology, 2) it could explain why he wasn't diagnosed until 35, and 3) there's a real possibility that he was misdiagnosed and has tourettism and not TS at all. But. The sources don't say that, so we're stuck inbetween. I just want to avoid extending beyond what the sources say, considering the medical relationship between cocaine abuse and tics. You can do this by connecting phrases with semi-colons rather than directly stating that it's the TS that "makes him" whatever. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:10, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
PS, interesting, how did I leave cocaine abuse out of tourettism: on my to-do list for the day! TS is diagnosed when tics are not due to the direct physiological effects of another substance (usually, in fact, abuse thereof): BehaveNet. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:14, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Vocalizations" is a rare word for me, and not very specific, it seems to mean anything produced with the voice, from words to shouts to song.[4] If I read that, I would think it actually meant coprolalia, while I think what the source means is that he tends to express himself heatedly in discussions, which is why I liked "outburst", which, to me, means passionate words, but not nonsense. A side comment; when I was expanding the article, I actually wrote to him, and asked if he would be willing to release a freely licensed picture. He wrote me quite a lot about how the Wikipedia mistreated him, and after a few back and forths, wouldn't release a picture if I couldn't guarantee our article would name specific Wikipedia editors who mistreated him. No obscenities were involved, but I could almost read him becoming heated as he typed. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 16:27, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting :-) Yes, I can live with outbusts, considering the wording in the source, but can we get rid of "form of", and make better use of semi-colons rather than direct connections between these issues (cocaine and tics)? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:32, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good, done <unwatch> ... ping me if you ever have a TS question :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:53, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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