Talk:Jim Henson/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Nomination of The Land of Gorch for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article The Land of Gorch is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Land of Gorch until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. — Cirt (talk) 10:01, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

funeral

I've heard (from several sources) that the muppets performed during the funeral (or was it the memorial service, if that's different in this case). I can't seem to find a decent first-hand account (other than the director's commentary for the movie Love Actually, which I've since returned to the video store). So if someone knows anything concrete about that, it would make a nice addition to the "died" paragraph. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 02:56, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Done! I've the DVD with me just now. Turly-burly 15:57, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

The Muppet Show DVD that contains the Harry Belafonte episode also contains Bryan Henson's commentary about his dad's funeral, and I THINK I remember some footage of Mr. Belafonte performing at the funeral/memorial service. I believe this performance contained the "special" muppets that appeared in one number with Belafonte on the Muppet Show and never appeared again until the funeral.

Yes, Kermit the Frog and Big Bird did in fact preform at Jim Henson's Funeral. Kermit and Big Bird sang the song "It's Not That Easy Being Green."

That's incorrect. Firstly, the performances being spoken of were not his funeral (which was private), but his public memorial service which was held at the Cathedral Church of St. John the Divine in NYC. It was here that Big Bird sang Bein' Green, and the Muppet performers sang medlies of sweet and silly songs. Kermit did not appear for the first time after Henson's death until the airing of The Muppets Celebrate Jim Henson on November 21, 1990, when we was performed by Steve Whitmire (and continues to be today). scarecroe 21:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Jabba the Hutt?

The article mentions Yoda, but I thought that Jabba the Hutt was also partly a muppet?

Neither Yoda nor Jabba were Muppets. Muppet is a capitalized term and applies only to Jim Henson's creations. scarecroe 16:03, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

As well, Jim Henson only aided in the design of Yoda. Frank Oz did all the main pupeteering and the voicing for Yoda. There were multiple puppets in the Star Wars Trilogy, but Yoda was the only one Jim Henson was involved with.SkittlzAnKomboz 03:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Henson hardly "aided" in anything having to do with the creation/conception of Yoda. More accurately, he unofficially conferred with those who were involved. —scarecroe 04:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Hence the word "aided" instead of the phrase "worked on". He has admitted to helping on Yoda, but not enough to deem credit in any of the movies. SkittlzAnKomboz 01:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Julia Grownup?

Never heard of her (my Sesame Street years were probably 1980-1985 or so). Was this post-Henson? If so, it probably doesn't belong in the article, though it's definitely interesting. Jdavidb 20:48, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Julia Grownup was an Electric Company phenomenon. That show ended in 1977 (though I hear rumor it may be back soon), so she's definitely during Henson's period. -- ke4roh 13:11, Jul 21, 2004 (UTC)

Was The Electric Company a Henson production? Was Julia Grownup a character he (and or his company) were responsible for creating? The Electric Company article doesn't mention Henson, although I found references online that say that Muppets "occasionally" visited the show. Jdavidb 15:38, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The Electric Company was done during the time Henson worked on Sesame Street, and it was done by Children's Television Workshop, but I don't think Henson had anything to do with it. Certainly the Muppets as such were not involved. And while I was a pretty regular viewer, I don't even remember seeing them as guests. Anyway, Julia Grownup was definitely not a Muppet, but was played by Judy Graubart.

Request for references

Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. Further reading is not the same thing as proper references. Further reading could list works about the topic that were not ever consulted by the page authors. If some of the works listed in the further reading section were used to add or check material in the article, please list them in a references section instead. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message when you have added a few references to the article. - Taxman 16:48, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

Jim Henson Memorial

I was actually at the memorial service at the cathedral of St. John the Divine in Manhattan.

There was a musical performance by the core group of Muppet performers. A handful of "Jim's favorite songs" were performed by Frank Oz, Jerry Nelson, Dave Goelz,Steve Whitmire (wearing a Kermit green suit, as he was to be the future voice of Kermit) Kevin Clash and Richard Hunt. Songs included, Coddleston Pie, You Are my Sunshine, Lydia the Tattoed Lady and more. The performance culminated with the song If Just One Person Believes in You. This song was begun by Richard Hunt working the Muppet Scooter. As each verse progressed each puppeteer reached behind and revealed their Muppet to join in and as the song drew to it's final verses all the Muppet performers holding Muppets they made famous joined the core group onstage and finished the song to a tearful standing ovation.

Big Bird , earlier in the memorial service, sang, It's Not Easy Being Green alone, not with Kermit as mentioned on the site. He was wearing a Kermit green bow tie and at the songs conclusion, obviously broken up, he gazed upwards and said, "Thank you Kermit."

Hope this info adds to the page regarding Jim Henson.

Chris

Chris left the above comment on my talk page. I don't have any connection to this article other than the above request I made. Hopefully someone here has the resources to verify Chris's information. Thanks - Taxman ^Talk 02:19, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

There is footage of the memorial service in a PBS documentary on Jim Henson, but I don't think the services were actually televised... Can anyone confirm or deny this? whysanitynet 21:03, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Yoda?

I do not believe that Jim had anything to do with the production on any Star Wars films: Neither Jim Henson nor the Jim Henson Creature Shop appear anywhere in the Star Wars credits, and Star Wars doesn't appear on the IMDB listing for either Jim Henson or the Jim Henson Creature Shop. Both Lucas and Henson have produced mostly at Elstree Studios, and they share many collaborators in common, including of course Frank Oz, but except for "Labyrinth", I don't think they worked together, and I don't think Henson was any part of the creation of Yoda or the Star Wars creatures. I am removing the picture and the reference. Please feel free to reinstate it if you can point to a reliable source. BarkingDoc]]

Family?

There is no mention of his family, I understand he had a daughter, Lisa Henson, who also has made a name for herself; I imagine he also married and had other children. If someone can find out more about that, it would be a great addition to Wikipedia.

Featured article criteria

Hello! I noticed the article is rather short (i.e. possibly not comprehensive) and desperately lacks references. Also, the Kermit sculpture image has no copyright information and the three fair use images use the old {{fairuse}} tags when they should use more specific ones, and do not provide rationale.

I'm nominating the article for a major featured article review and I hope it would be considerably improved very soon. If not, it would very likely be removed from the list of featured articles. Todor→Bozhinov 20:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Curtis quote

I'm wondering if Richard Curtis should really be allotted a block quote about Henson's funeral, especially since at least two details in his description of the event are verifiably false, both by Jim Hill's recounting and the NYT article on the funeral. What is his block quote doing that an encyclopedic summary couldn't do? -Hobbesy3 13:49, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

GA comment

• The Sesame Street image needs a fair use rationale for use on this article. Look to other GAs for examples. --Nehrams2020 06:00, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Fixed. -Hobbesy3 16:57, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Religion?

Was Henson a Scientologist?

This statement has appeared in some articles, but I see no supporting references.69.228.222.44 (talk) 06:54, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

This little question has been bothering me for some time - Was Jim Henson a Christian? As he seperated from the Christian Scientist church (which is considered a cult), it seems to me he could very well have become a Protestant or Catholic. There are a few "Christian" themes in the show, and it just feels to me he might have been a Christian. I have not found that answer anywhere, so if anyone knows, please answer. Thanks!

In my experience, the word "cult" is largely defined by the person who uses it, not the entity to whom it is applied. Christian Scientists consider themselves to be Christians just as much as any other Christian sect, Catholic, Protestant, or otherwise. If themes which are specific to Christianity appear in Henson's work, they can most likely be traced to his Christian Science upbringing.

To be honest I saw it as referencing Christianity less than even Disney did. "Love your enemy" is the only somewhat specifically Christian idea I can think of to be in his work. Otherwise I think it was moral, but not specific to any religion. If I were to choose a religious mindset for it I'd say Taoism. He did a great deal about nature, harmony, and there being a balancing of chaos and order rather than a war of good and evil. The Dark Crystal is maybe the most overtly Taoist feeling of his films, but images of Taoist-type quasi-hermits who are dwarfed by the immensity of nature is in several others. In the original Muppet Movie Kermit almost fits that.--T. Anthony 15:52, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Why does Jim Henson's religion (or lack thereof) matter in the least? Some people..... PeteJayhawk 06:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I would think the reason is obvious. I don't know why people here get so intensely uncomfortable with even the mention of a person's religion. Still whether people like it or not religion or religious upbringing can be significant to outlook, particularly in the case of artists. Henson isn't the best case here, but his religious background is a source of discussion and rumors concerning his death. Some people.....--T. Anthony 03:57, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

You know, it doesn't matter, I suppose. Neither does where he was born, really. However, it's an interesting piece of information to include in the article. It's a biographical article, and his religion and how it influenced his work is biographical information. I'm interested in learning more about this now, too. No real reason, just that I am now curious.--Raulpascal 21:21, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

He was brought up a Christian Scientist and was burried in a Christian-esque ceremony. Refereces say Christian, but I can find nothing to say Scientologist. To say Toaist is complete guess work Harmony with nature isn't exclusively Toaist and there's no reason to say that he was Toaist based on a movie he made. That's kind of like saying the makers of Daredevil (the comic book character) were Roman Catholic just because Daredevil is. 98.198.83.12 (talk) 14:07, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

GA Nomination on Hold

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   a (fair representation): b (all significant views):

5. It is stable.

   

6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.

   a (tagged and captioned): b (lack of images does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):

7. Overall:

   a Pass/Fail:

Suggestions by section

As issues are corrected, strike-through the suggestions (starting after the *) and place {{done}} after.

Lead

• Criteria 1b requires the article comply with the Manual of Style regarding lead sections.
  • The lead should be a summary of the article, briefly touching on each section of the article. Currently it lacks details from
  • Emboldened titles and variations should appear in the title sentence (the first sentence of the lead). In this case, I recommend rewording the first sentence to "Jim Henson, born James Maury Henson, (September 24, 1936 – May 16, 1990) was ..." Then remove this detail from the first sentence of Early life.  Done

Early life

• "the biggest event of his adolescence," - Is this quote covered by the citation located at the end of the paragraph? If so, reference it at the end of the quote as well. Also, who is this quoting? If it were him, shouldn't it read "the biggest event of my adolescence"? (emphasis mine)  Done; Quote is from the citation at end of sentence; I've added that citation directly after the quote. It is NYT prose that says Henson remembered it as "the biggest event of his adolescence."
• Who says that Kermit is the most famous muppet?  Done

Additionally, Henson wanted the muppet characters to "speak" more creatively that previous puppets had which seemed to have random mouth movements; he (used and) directed his muppeteers to use precision mouth movements to match the dialogue. I heard this in a documentary about the Muppets years ago but I'm not sure how to add a "citation needed" if that what's needed--Dcrasno (talk) 22:54, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Struggles and projects in the sixties

• Because it is a colloquialism, "America" should be changed to "the United States" and wikified.  Done

Transition to the big screen

• The Yoda paragraph could use a reference.  Done
• "Crystal was a financial and critical success, and, a year later, the Muppet-starring The Muppets Take Manhattan (directed by Frank Oz) also did well." - "did well" is vague. How well did it do?  Done

References

• Ensure they are consistently formatted. Currently, the date of publication varies. Considering the cite web template is used, the "|date=" field should be used. This places the publication date in parenthesis after the author name, when available.  Done
• TIME magazine should be capitalized in references.  Done
• Reference 4 (the newest addition) does not adequately verify the claim. It merely refers to him as "a more enduring star". Additionally, another wiki does not necessarily constitute a reliable source.  Done
• For the references stating "(fee required)"; are you sure? It appears membership is required, but that the membership is free.  Done; NYT membership is free, but with the membership you only get access to reviews, tiny articles, and articles written in the last 6 days. For everything else, there’s a fee.

Non-section-specific

• Cities, states, and countries should be wikified in their first occurrence for context. Also, Washington should be wikified for the additional reason of distinguishing between the state and D.C.  Done
• Ensure terms aren't unnecessarily wikified multiple times. I tried to correct this, but I think I may have missed a few.  Done
• Are all redlinks notable subjects/topics that qualify to be written of in this encyclopedia? Any that are not should not be wikified.  Done
• There should be a consistency in how decades are written, i.e. either 1950s or fifties.  Done; fixed three instances where article uses "1950s" format.

Conclusion

I've known since I was a child who Jim Henson is, but I did not know any details of his life or accomplishments. He has always simply been "The Muppet creator", to me. However, in reading this article, I was not only educated, I was touched. This article is informative and wonderfully well written. Both balanced and broad, the authors of this article have honored Jim Henson and, for that, should all be proud.

With that said, the article has some areas in need of improvement. There were several minor issues with the article that I corrected myself. I recommend looking through the article history to see these changes for future knowledge. I've placed this article on hold for no more than seven days so that these changes can be made. I will continue to help and, I'm sure, the article will be a GA by this time next week. LaraLove^T/_C 05:21, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Thanks! Made some of your suggested changes, with more to come. Hobbesy3 07:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Made all suggested changes except for expanded lead. Hobbesy3 19:24, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

The easiest way to write a lead is to write a concise summary of each section of the article in the order they appear in the article. See WP:LEAD for further details. But, basically, you just want to write a couple of sentences regarding the most important and notable information from each section, and break this information down into 2-4 paragraphs. For this article, probably 4. Let me know if you need help. LaraLove^T/_C 05:19, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

The only thing missing is his death and tributes. Briefly state when and how he died and then summarize the tributes. LaraLove 05:31, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Everything looks good now. Congratulations, and good work. LaraLove 19:57, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

The introduction is rather long. Guest. 3:45AM 13 April 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.225.171.137 (talk) 08:01, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Worth mentioning?

Should it be mentioned that Jim Henson was against adding major female puppets to Sesame Street and other shows? Should it also be mentioned that he disliked the falsetto voices men did when playing female puppets and that he was against women controlling puppets because he thought it was unladylike? I'm not starting rumors, the info came from this book (http://www.amazon.com/Saturday-Morning-Censors-Television-Console-ing/dp/0822322404/) of course, it may not all be true. :-) OughtToShip (talk) 00:15, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

If he was against it, Fran Brill wouldn't be performing Prairie Dawn and Zoe Monster. Angie Y. (talk) 16:20, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

He may still have been against it, but there were other people involved in Sesame Street besides him. I think more research should be done before a conclusion is reached. -- Javawizard (talk) 05:39, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

If I could...

If I had the power to pull a soul back to Earth and make that person flesh again, I'd pull Jim back to Earth. He's one of the most talented men in the World, and I cry knowing I am touched by his amazing work. Angie Y. (talk) 16:20, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Peacock terms

I added the peacock template to the top of the page due to the first sentence, which essentially attempts to state that he was the greatest puppeteer in american television history, or whatever. He did a lot of great things with puppets, but that is quite obviously peacock terms. Even though it cites a source for the information, I still think that it is peacock terms. Just because some random website (not to diminish howstuffworks.com, which I've used numerous times) says that something is the most awesome, bestest [sic] thing in the world or in the americas doesn't mean that it really is. -- Javawizard (talk) 05:54, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

The WP article doesn't say he was the "most aweome, bestest" anything. It says he "was the most widely known puppeteer in American television history" which is provable with more than one source. —scarecroe (talk) 21:53, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Renom for FA?

Happened on this article, which is a world away from the one that was delisted as a Featured Article in July 2006. Anyone who's knowledgeable about the mechanics want to scrub this up and renominate it? Bongomatic 13:32, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

GA Sweeps

This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. The article history has been updated to reflect this review.

Even though it meets the basic requirements, there are still some issues that could be addressed to improve the article:

• There were lots of links directly in the text to the Muppets Wiki. Links should not go directly in the texts, and other wikis are not considered reliable sources. I removed these; there is a link to the site under "External links", this will have to suffice.
• There is occasionally poor referencing, this is particularly the case for the "Sesame Street" section.
• Death - this section has been given undue weight; it is never nice for an accomplished individual that his death should receive almost as much attention as his life.
• Tributes - Poorly referenced, though I doubt it ought to be there at all. It probably conflicts with Wikipedia:DIRECTORY; I'd recommend removing it, or rewriting it in more selective prose form, and reference it throughout. Lampman (talk) 00:07, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

lazy eye

what's up with his eye? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.63.11.185 (talk) 01:24, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Personal quotes

Wouldn't it be a good idea, to have a section with personal quotes of Jim Henson. E.g. "When I was young, my ambition was to be one of the people who made a difference in this world. My hope still is to leave the world a little bit better for my having been here. It's a wonderful life and I love it." (reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuRO-ZOq1Ac). And "We should love people not for their similarities, but for their differences." (reference: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/09/remembering-my-dad-jim-henson.html). 79.224.83.49 (talk) 19:18, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

File:Muppets at Museum of American History.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Education?

The side panel lists only Henson's high school under "Education", but then the article itself mentions that he graduated with a B.S. from the University of Maryland, where he quite notably gained his interest in puppetry and began creating shows. Shouldn't his undergraduate education be mentioned in the sidebar? 98.204.174.209 (talk) 05:37, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

I throw in a vote for "yes".

Bouncehoper (talk) 13:32, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

The Henson Stitch

I watched the Elmo documentary with Kevin Clash, and wanted to know if Jim Henson ever patented what was referred to as "the Henson stitch." It was a method of hiding muppet stitching by putting the stitch on the nose and throat. No luck finding sources for it yet.

Twillisjr (talk) 18:20, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Cause of death

Illness is listed as Toxic Shock. Jim Henson died as a result of Septic Shock. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.210.141 (talk) 23:54, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi 98.224.210.141. According to the supporting reference cited in the Jim Henson article (http://www.nytimes.com/1990/05/29/science/the-doctor-s-world-henson-death-shows-danger-of-pneumonia.html), "Dr. David Gelmont, who headed the intensive care team that treated Mr. Henson at New York Hospital, believes he died from toxic shock syndrome produced by the streptococcal bacteria." This is also the cause of death listed in Sherris Medical Microbiology- An introduction to infectious disease (http://books.google.co.th/books?ei=L8MBU9-qJ4OQrQfC44HYAg&id=mgmataMQjMwC&dq=sherris+medical+microbiology+jim+henson&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=jim+henson). Where did you read that he died from septic shock? Lialono (talk) 08:15, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Where did I read that Jim Henson died from septic shock? It's all over the Internet - and in the newspapers, at the time of his death, including the New York Times. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.167.18.173 (talk) 21:53, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi 173.167.18.173. I gather there was quite a lot of misinformation at the time of his death, the New York Times initially attributing his death to pneumonia (http://www.nytimes.com/1990/05/17/obituaries/jim-henson-puppeteer-dies-the-muppets-creator-was-53.html). The two supporting references attributing his death to toxic shock syndrome seem reliable, and if you do a quick google search for "Jim Henson" AND "toxic shock", it yields 129,000 results. Lialono (talk) 06:17, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

If muppetcentral.com says the cause of death was Septic Shock, then the cause of death was Septic Shock. http://www.muppetcentral.com/forum/threads/may-16-2011-saying-goodbye-to-jim-henson-21-years-later.47663/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.167.18.173 (talk) 03:11, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Hi again 173.167.18.173. The link you provided was to a muppet fan forum post by new member Danny Hooley. Can I suggest you consult WP:MEDRS for information on what Wikipedia does and doesn't consider reliable sources? Thanks. Lialono (talk) 05:18, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

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Death

This is false, Jim Henson did not die of a heart attack, he died of toxic shock due to a massive bacterial infection from pneumonia.

Jim henson died of a massive heart attack at a fairly young age of just 53. Everyone was shaken family and all of his fans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.5.135.44 (talk) 17:36, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

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Some cleanup done

Deleted the empty see also section, took the unnecessary Archive subsection and moved it up to legacy. Removed some uncited trivia and added references for some pertinent material in the tributes section.--occono (talk) 23:36, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

Kermudo/Kertle Statue -No source

Hi, I noticed the following statement under "Tributes" lacked a WP:RS and google was not forthcoming in providing one. Does anyone have a source for this? If a source is found perhaps this picture should be added to illustrate?

Kertle

In 2006, Maryland introduced 50 statues of their school mascot, Testudo the Terrapin, with various designs chosen by different sponsoring groups. Among them was Kertle, a statue by Washington, DC artist Elizabeth Baldwin, designed to look like Kermit the Frog.

[Also, this was originally added in 2006 with the statue called "Kermudo." Without a source, how do we know if it is called Kermudo or Kertle?] 24.217.247.41 (talk) 04:15, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Kertle is the correct name. RS: https://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/bal-vg-turtles-locations-story.html Carter (talk) 10:41, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for finding that source! 24.217.247.41 (talk) 08:55, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Jim Henson and the Muppets.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:53, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

death_cause

As per the documentation for {{infobox person}}, |death_cause= is only included "when the cause of death has significance for the subject's notability". There is no indication that is the case here - the subject was already notable for unrelated reasons before his death. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:00, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

His cause of death was major news and is still prominent on the stories about his death. I remember it as flu vaccination rates went up after it was reported. This fits into his notability and the infobox requirements. ContentEditman (talk) 01:33, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

References

The bar for inclusion is not only that the cause of death is supported by sources, but that it is significant to the subject's notability. The sources you list do not demonstrate that. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:59, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

ContentEditman, please do not continue reverting until you achieve consensus for inclusion, per WP:ONUS. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:15, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Nikkimaria Do not remove something that fits Wikipedia guidelines and keep edit warring as you have done on this and other pages. Take it to WP:DRN . I have no problem with others reviewing this, do you? ContentEditman (talk) 01:17, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

You haven't presented any evidence supporting your assertion that this fits with the applicable guidance. As noted, the subject was notable before his death for reasons unrelated to the cause. Do you dispute that? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:20, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

As I said before I am not going to argue with you when all you do is edit war and try to bully your way. If you think you're right take it to the WP:DRN . ContentEditman (talk) 01:22, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

I saw this listed at Third Opinion. I'm not giving this as an "official" third opinion because I'm sure that I've encountered Nikkimaria somewhere around the wiki in the past since I recognize her name. I don't remember anything about her that would cause me to be prejudiced for her or against her, but I don't feel comfortable saying I've never encountered her before. I've left it listed at 3O in case some other editor wants to join in, but they'll have to decide whether it still qualifies for a 3O since there are now more than three editors involved. So here's my opinion: I think Nikkimaria is correctly interpreting the infobox documentation and that |death_cause= is only for those instances when the cause of death is significant to the person's notability. The fact that Henson died of the flu and that his death brought awareness and acceptance to the need for vaccination (and I'm taking ContentEditman's word for that; if there's conflict over it, it will need to be sourced) isn't irrelevant to his notability but neither is it particularly significant. And significance is the test in this case. But to be excruciatingly precise, template documentation does not have the force of policy and there is no policy that says that it must be followed, see the lede at WP:TDOC (which, let me note, is also not a policy). So, there is no policy which says that template documentation is binding on how the template may be used. That then drops us back to general principles. The consensus policy says that a person seeking to add or remove material from the encyclopedia has the burden to obtain consensus for that action if it is contested. So this material should not be added until consensus is obtained to add it. No such consensus exists at this point in time, so it should not be added until that consensus is reached. Remember in doing so that "no consensus" is a perfectly acceptable result in Wikipedia, with the result in this case that the material would be excluded. And just to be clear: The "material" in this case is only the entry in the infobox; I express no opinion about and mention of his cause of death in the body of the article. Finally, do I feel that the information is of sufficient importance to include it in the infobox, template documentation not considered? No. I think that it exceeds the summary information needed in an infobox. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 20:32, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

TransporterMan Nikkimaria left off a lot you may not know. They have been edit warring on this same issue with other editors at several other pages such as Talk:Meat Loaf, Talk:Adam Schlesinger, etc... I never added the Death Cause to any of these pages but do support the addition and editors that added them. I gave plenty of examples that infobox supports inclusion with a good example being John Lennon. He was not a gun smith, gun expert, etc... yet his cause of death is given as a example when to add and his case of death is not as notable as others Nikkimaria has removed from. ContentEditman (talk) 22:35, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Though it’s a bit tricky, the basic rule at Wikipedia is that unless there is a consensus, usually adopted in the form of a guideline or policy, that there is no requirement that articles should be alike in some way and every article stands on its own. So what happens at those other articles is mostly irrelevant to what happens here at this article. There could be a consensus here that it ought to be included and a consensus to the opposite at some other article and both would be valid. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 00:47, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

I get that but in this case there are multiple editors that agree on the addition for this article and the others above and just 1 aggressive editor, Nikkimaria, trying to remove it. Again I did not even add to the pages, but I do support the additions and editors that added it. And the Infobox guidelines clearly show the additions are fitting with Wikipedia's rules. ContentEditman (talk) 13:04, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

As is clear, you have not achieved consensus here for your viewpoint. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:24, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

And neither have you support for the removal. You can keep trying to bully but your actions are clearly editing in bad faith. ContentEditman (talk) 02:27, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

As TransporterMan noted, this material should not be added until consensus is obtained to add it. You're welcome to pursue further avenues such as an RfC to attempt to achieve that consensus, but unless/until then it should stay out. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:30, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

And you continue to edit in bad faith, your edits and history show that. ContentEditman (talk) 02:32, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

The continued personal commentary is not relevant to the matter under discussion (see WP:FOC), and does not impact the outcome here: no consensus, no inclusion. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:38, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

And there you go again trying to change the subject. Your editing here and other places show you edit in bad faith and then try and bully your way. ContentEditman (talk) 02:40, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

The appropriate subject for discussion on an article talk page is the article. If you want to discuss something else, please take it somewhere else. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:44, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

You're welcome to take it somewhere else. But again your editing history and continuing to edit in bad faith is very clear. ContentEditman (talk) 02:46, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

3O volunteer here: I don't think this qualifies for a third opinion anymore, since TransporterMan has weighed in. Since TransporterMan's level of involvement with Nikkimaria is just at "recognize her name" level, I think we can call it an official 3O.

Since I'm here, I agree with the final conclusions of Nikkimaria and TransporterMan. Unlike them, I think "wouldn't have been notable without the cause of death" is too high a bar for inclusion. While consistency with other articles is often a weak argument, we have plenty of Featured Articles that include death-cause parameters despite pre-death notability, including Marilyn Monroe and Philip Seymour Hoffman. My loose survey of such high-quality articles suggests that actual practice is to include the parameter if it generated more coverage than would be expected from someone of that notability level passing away. It seems to occur more with surprising, accidental, or violent deaths and less with deaths by disease. Firefangledfeathers 19:44, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree with you, it should be included in "surprising" deaths. And Jim Henson is one of those cases. You can see by the references I posted above there are entire articles written about how he died as it was very surprising and unexpected. A white male in the US with money does not drop dead at 53 from something so easily treated. Even his page has "Medical expert Lawrence D. Altman also stated Henson's death "may have shocked many Americans..." in it. I remember it happening not because of who he was but due to how he died. Even to this day its brought up in current culture, Family Guy had a joke in it about the "wrong sounding muppets" due to Henson. Search Youtube for "Family Guy - Wrong Sounding Muppets" to see. ContentEditman (talk) 01:21, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Edit warring warning: Whoever reverts this page next is going to be reported to EWN (as is the next one who revert that reversion) or an administrator. It's time for this slow-motion edit war to stop. If you can't resolve this through discussion or dispute resolution then you're engaging in disruptive conduct by just reverting back and forth. I really don't give a damn whether the article is left with the cause of death in it or not, but the edit war is going to stop. — TransporterMan (TALK) 21:32, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Hi TransporterMan, if you have suggestions on next steps here I'd be happy to hear them. It seems clear to me based on the discussion above that the disputed content should be excluded unless/until a consensus is formed for inclusion. It seems equally clear that further discussion between ContentEditman and myself is unlikely to be productive given his unfortunate tendency to personalize matters, and it does not seem that input via 3O has changed his approach. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:51, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Wow, trying to play the victim. Both I and TransporterMan have said the same thing and told you what to do. "If you think you're right take it to the WP:DR". You ignore it as you just want to bully your way. You even tried it at Peter Sellers when over 10 editors agreed and gained consensus but you still edit warred against it. You're editing shows a clear and obvious editing in bad faith on just about every page you do not get your way on. ContentEditman (talk) 01:04, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

I did pursue DR: we received not one but two 3Os that concurred with my position here. And as noted, please focus on content not the contributor, and keep discussion here to the topic of this article. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:10, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

When your editing history and constant bad faith editing exist it is part of the subject. Your edit warring here let alone at Peter Sellers shows just how far you go when you do not get your way. So yes you're the issue here and many other pages you've done the same on. ContentEditman (talk) 01:15, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Nikkimaria: When 3O doesn't work, DRN is the next step. If it fails or doesn't get of the ground because someone won't participate (or otherwise), RFC follows. ContentEditman: Your continued harping on conduct issues is not productive. If you believe that Nikkimaria is in violation of Wikipedia's conduct standards (and I express no opinion one way or the other about that), file a case at ANI but either do that or shut up about conduct. Another editor's conduct violations does not give you the right to refuse to discuss content and do so productively in order to try to come to a consensus. Discuss content, not conduct; discuss edits, not editors. I renew my warning to everyone about continuing the slow motion edit war. — TransporterMan (TALK) 20:24, 20 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks TransporterMan; I've posted a request at DRN. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:16, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Other things

This biographical piece is very US-centric. Jim Henson was very active in the European community in puppetry, but, unfortunately, we didn't get much information over here.

I'm asking someone who is more familiar with his overseas efforts to include some information regarding his accomplishments over there. I think it would help demonstrate his overlooked mature side. I understand, from what I heard, the productions over there were more risque'.

Why is there no article for Fraggle Rock?!?!?!?!?!?

There is.

There is no mention of his works on the TV show City kids.

City Kids didn't happen until 3 years after his death. —scarecroe 14:03, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

"He won fame for his characters, particularly Kermit the Frog, Rowlf the Dog and Ernie." That selection seems pretty arbitrary, but if you were for some reason going to pick just three, I don't know why Rowlf would be one of them. Edit: If the idea is to pick characters that Henson himself voiced/played, the text could make that clearer.JohnMason (talk) 15:00, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

Death

I read somewhere that Henson was a Christian Scientist, which is why he let his infection progress to the terminal stage. If this is true, would it be relevant to the article? DS 17:58, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, but I'm not sure it's true.

(google)

From the People magazine article "Legacy of a Gentle Genius", which I found here:

By 2 A.M. Henson was having difficulty breathing and had been coughing up blood, though Jane [Henson] didn't know for how long. "I remember saying, 'Can we go to the hospital? Can we call a nurse, a doctor?' " she says. "But he said, 'just rub my back. Try to calm down my breathing.' At one point, he said, 'Maybe I'm dying.' He did say that. But, you know, whenever you're sick, you say, 'God, I feel like I'm going to die.' "

Still, he did not leave for a hospital. Part of the reason, says Jane, was his Christian Science upbringing. While he didn't practice the faith, "it affects his general thinking," says Jane. "Not that he mistrusted doctors, but he would rather just see it through by himself."

The more critical reason was that he just didn't want to bother anyone. "I think he knew there was a possibility he was dying," says Jane, "and that possibly was why he didn't want to go to a doctor. He really didn't want anyone else to be disturbed by his pain."

The impression I got from the overall thing (including the bits I haven't quoted here), "not wanting to bother anyone" was a much more significant factor than the Christian Science influence. Even "rather just see it through by himself" sounds like it could be not-wanting-to-bother-people as much as the other thing. --Paul A 23:56, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That said, Henson's Christian Science upbringing is probably worth mentioning in the article somewhere. --Paul A 00:12, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

---

Just want to point out that I have no idea where the spammy link came from in this edit I made. I use an old Mac and iCab, not IE, so I'm not sure what's going on. —tregoweth 06:18, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

When I was a lad my dad told me of Jim Henson's death. Though he didn't atrribute it to religious reasons. From him and others down the line I was told that he was working, constantly, and when pressured about looking sick he would reply "Its just a cough, I'll be alright". The not wanting to bother people idea is more correct, though in the end it may have been a combination of that, doctor phobia and not having the time to go. We really can't know for certain, but I don't believe that christian science had anything to do with it. Forgot to log in. Zanduar 04:59, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

---

It should at least be mentioned in the article that his religious beliefs being brought up as a Christian Scientist may have contributed to his not seeking medical treatment. I say this as someone who was also brought up in Christian Science and who nearly died as a result in my early adulthood. It certainly can affect the way one thinks about health interventions. Vin156r (talk) 07:41, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

RFC on Jim Henson Infobox

Should the infobox for Jim Henson include a cause-of-death field? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:53, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Enter Yes or No with a brief statement in the Survey. You may engage in back-and-forth discussion in the Threaded Discussion field.

Brief Statement for Yes

• Yes. His cause of death was national news not just for who he was but how he died. There are many reliable references on just his cause of death such as...

As you can see stories on just the cause are written on the subject. I remember it as Flu shoots went up after that. I grew up poor so we never got flu shoots, except after Henson died. I still remember that as I and many other kids got them due to his cause of death. His cause of death is not only a major significance for the Henson's notability but even to this day its even still brought up in pop culture. Family Guy is one I know off the top of my head. Search Youtube for "Family Guy - Wrong Sounding Muppets" for example as you-tube link is not allowed. ContentEditman (talk) 20:59, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Brief Statement for No

The template documentation provides guidance for when this parameter should be used: when it is significant to the subject's notability. There is no indication that is the case here: he was already notable for unrelated reasons prior to his death, and had he not been an otherwise notable person it is unlikely that this death would have made him notable. The bar for inclusion has not been met. Additionally consensus for inclusion has not been achieved, and the existing talk discussion shows a rough consensus for exclusion.

Survey

• Yes, the cause of death is notable. The template doc is poorly worded, but actually emphasizes a similar goal. — HTGS (talk) 01:28, 2 March 2022 (UTC) (Summoned by bot)
• No - I find the argument compelling that the infobox entry is for individuals whose notability is linked to their death. Was the death notable? Yes. But... was the death a significant factor in his notability? I have to say no. For Elvis, his death is a significant part of his notability today. For Princess Diana, her death is a significant part of her notability. Yes, both those people are notable for things other than their death, but their deaths are a major part of their notability to this day. But Jim Henson was, and remains, notable for the Muppets, not his death. Because he was notable and loved, his death was widely report on... but his death isn't really his legacy to my understanding. As such, my !vote is for no. My opinion would be different if there was notable coverage of his death years after his death occurred and it was no longer topical... this happens with Elvis and Princess Diana. I don't think it happens with Jim Henson. Compare with James Dean -- the section in the article about his death extends several sub-categories and multiple paragraphs. It's somewhat sensational. The section on Jim Henson's death is much smaller, involves much less... for lack of a better word, "storytelling", and isn't a big part of the article as a whole. Fieari (talk) 07:45, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
• Yes, Henson's death was wholly unexpected and the cause of death became national news in this case, it was a notable cause of death. Cynistrategus (talk) 18:29, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
• Yes, Unless you can demonstrate that it is distracting from the biography, which I don't believe it is, then no change should be pursued.Writethisway (talk) 19:27, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
• Yes. Given how unexpected and untimely his death was, it's definitely of note how he died. I highly doubt anyone will look at it and think he's any more well-known for how he died than his creation of Muppets. Songwaters (talk) 18:43, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Threaded Discussion

The template documentation is unclear in its wording, but clear in the examples given. James Dean was obviously as notable before his death as Henson was; his death was notable, but not the primary reason for his notability. This disagreement could easily be resolved by rewording guidance at the infobox template. I doubt that needs discussion, but I’ll give opportunity for others to tell me I’m wrong before changing it. — HTGS (talk) 01:28, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

That shouldn't be done based on this discussion since it was developed by discussion at template talk (and centralized discussion outweighs article-specific). However, what would you propose changing it to? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:52, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Doc currently reads:

Cause of death. Should be clearly defined and sourced, and should only be included when the cause of death has significance for the subject's notability, e.g. James Dean, John Lennon. It should not be filled in for unremarkable deaths such as those from old age or routine illness, e.g. Bruce Forsyth, Eduard Khil.

I would change it to:

Cause of death. Should be clearly defined and sourced, and should only be included when the cause of death was itself notable remarkable (e.g. James Dean, John Lennon). It should not be filled in for unremarkable deaths such as those from old age or routine illness (e.g. Bruce Forsyth, Eduard Khil).

Relevant change emphasized in bold. I don’t think this change would be controversial (so I would have just changed it in a BOLD manner), but like many good discussions, I’m prepared to be proven wrong. — HTGS (talk) 04:43, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

That's a big step backwards in terms of clarity - while people may disagree about what is or is not significant to notability, "notability" is at least in theory a shared concept in the Wikipedia context, whereas remarkable could mean anything. If you wanted something more objective, you could say include if the death itself has a standalone article and exclude otherwise - this would have it be included for both Lennon and Dean. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:02, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Comments: I wasn't involved in the discussions concerning the cause of death in an infobox. I do have a disdain for long boxes with trivial information but this is not the case. The Manual of Style states a purpose of infoboxes are to: summarizes key features of the page's subject. I would agree that some "rewording guidance at the infobox template" would be appropriate for clarity. The cause of death appears to be notable and not because of "old age or routine illness". I have the opinion that a cause of death can be both encyclopedic and a natural answer to the next question when someone relays that a person has passed away which is "what was the cause of death?" If any editor here has relayed to another person that someone has died I would find it strange if they did not receive some exclamation (really, what, wow) and ---- "how did they die?"

The lead mentions the cause of death (referenced) as well as referenced content in the "Illness and death" section. If continued inclusion in the infobox is deemed appropriate I don't think it needs referencing per WP:INFOBOXREF and to do so would be citation overkill. -- Otr500 (talk) 14:21, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria, there is much conversation we could have about the precise guidance, but would you have objection to my former wording, with “notable”? If not, I will edit the template doc; if you do object, we can continue this discussion there. — HTGS (talk) 08:28, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

As noted, any proposal to change the wording should be addressed there rather than here. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. I’ll boldly change it and we will see whether anyone there has issue with it. — HTGS (talk) 22:02, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Suggest instead starting a discussion on template talk - as above, this shouldn't be done based on discussion here. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:09, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

@HTGS: I see you've done this - please self-revert. It was indeed the intention of the documentation to limit parameter usage to cases where it is linked to subject notability, as is clear from discussions there. If you disagree with that intention, that should be taken up at template talk. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:37, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

• Extra comments: Please note I didn't weigh in with a yes or no because this article is a good article. This is an RFC and I feel there are other options that would be productive and less time-consuming. There are at least five active projects on this article, and I might have missed it, but I didn't see any notification at those. -- Otr500 (talk) 15:43, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Y Done

• Yes- per above ― Kaleeb18^Talk_Caleb 00:21, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

• Yes - makes sense.Yousef Raz (talk) 19:14, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Jim Henson

Wiki article shows birth in 1954, yet career from 1955. Error in dat of birth seems probable. I SUSPECT born 1944, not 1954. Can someone check this ? 104.160.57.77 (talk) 01:24, 11 September 2022 (UTC)