Talk:Jewish Underground

Gush Emunim or TNT?

According to this article from Washington Report never known to be a friend of Israel, "Like the other three TNT cells, the Livni group had an elaborate plan from 1978-82 to blow up the Dome of the Rock and Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem. Though members of this group had desecrated the mosque many times in the past, the bombing was called off because the group could not get permission from the prominent rabbis in the Gush Emunim movement. "  ?? Tundrabuggy (talk) 21:01, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Hebrew required, debresser?

the standard Hebrew lang =hamakhteret hayehudit, should be added. Anyone? Nishidani (talk) 19:57, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

המחתרת היהודית Debresser (talk) 20:16, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I know, but everytime I either write out Hebrew or copy it into a page, I dunno why, but the first letters are rearranged. Must get back to that movieNishidani (talk) 21:48, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

It worked this time. What movie? Debresser (talk) 22:01, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The Anthony Hopkins/Mickey Rourke version of Desperate Hours, as usual not, for someone of my generation, as good as the old Bogart version, though I have a soft spot for David Morse's acting and he played the manic role well, particularly the pre-final scene, where he's shot to pieces by the usual police action of scores of snipers shooting at 100 yards, ignoring the fact, as US and Israeli cops always do, that with a sniper's rifle you can simply shoot a man in the upper chest or arm to render him to justice and a court trial, as those sensible bobbies did in nthe London underground with a similar case some days ago. This kind of stunt was then repeated as the virtually gunless Rourke character steps out to be drilled by a thousand bullets in The Wild Bunch style. I fail to see why this is regarded as dramatic and thrilling, it's a stupid cliché tha works only with gun addicts. My only other reflection was this: why don't police use taser guns at checkpoints in those two countries, as they do in civilized countries?Nishidani (talk) 09:40, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

I have like David Morse's acting ever since St. Elsewhere. Not familiar with Desperate Hours. Debresser (talk) 12:17, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

wta

Is there any dispute that the Jewish Underground was a terrorist organization? Cus its been unchallenged in this article for a few years now. nableezy - 19:24, 29 March 2016 (UTC) (ec)

• Somchai Sun, eliminated the word terrorist to designate the Jewish Underground citing WP:TERRORIST
• I restored this because the group was put on trial for acts of terrorism, was convicted, and served gaol terms.

WP:TERRORIST reads

Value-laden labels—such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion—may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution.

The text uses the term, reflecting its sources, and the label is supported by the judicial process in Israel and numerous books referring to the movement. That this is not an exonym, reflecting the prejudice of an outside group hostile to a foreign organization of a different ethnic stripe is clear, discounting the idea that it might be a political form of branding an adversary. It is like the case of Lehi and the Irgun, being a Jewish terror group recognized as such by court rulings and the consensus of Israeli/ Jewish scholars of terrorism, ranging from Ami Pedahzur, ‎Arie Perliger, Ehud Sprinzak, Motti Imbari, Nachman Ben-Yehuda, Jean E. Rosenfeld, to Noemi Gal-Or and Daniel Byman in high quality RS.

• Brewcrewer's revert with the edit summary

rv. nopety nope. wp:terrorist does not mean there are no sources with such description. can you seriously claim you never removed the word "terrorist" from an article despite being sourced when the topic was a misunderstood arab muslim is not a policy based revert. By those own words, you are saying, Brewcrewer, that you reverted me on a suspicion my editing is not coherent regarding Jewish and Arab terrorism. Antipathy or suspicion about the coherence of an editor's approach is not a policy grounded reason. In fact it is a WP:AGF violation, and it's the second time in two days (WP:BURDEN here) that you have misquoted policy to justify reverting me.Nishidani (talk) 19:42, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

I have no interest in your dispute with the other editor... I only went by guidelines and I appreciate it when people bring up further relevant information, which has now been done. P.S, I was not trying to "eliminate" the word terrorist from the article. This organization was clearly a terrorist group.--Adam in 成都市 (talk) 21:43, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

• I would just like to voice my opinion, that I am against euphemisms, and think a terrorist should be called by that name without hesitation, once he was legally designated to be one. If necessary, a qualifier can always be added, like "convicted in absence for terrorism by the court of Country X", or "considered a terrorist in Country Y". Debresser (talk) 22:10, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

its not even that, its if there is no dispute on the term in reliable sources we should use it. When there is a dispute then we shouldnt. To try to analogize the Jewish Underground to Hamas misses that fairly important distinction. nableezy - 23:40, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

You are correct in your first sentence. The second however is incorrect. If there is a dispute, the best thing to do is as I described above: bring both opinions with attribution. Debresser (talk) 00:22, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

The relevant guideline says that if the term is widely used then in text attribution should be used. All the rest, about exonyms and courts and whatever is completely irrelevant. The obvious subtext is that since a Palestinian court would never convict a Palestinian for terrorism against Israelis (they're considered heroes as we know), then they can never be described as terrorist. Do as the policy says here and elsewhere. I'd be super amazed if you used the same kind of wording as used in, say, Dalal Mughrabi, who any right thinking person would recognize is on about the same level as the subjects of this article. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:27, 30 March 2016 (UTC)

That's not strictly true. If the overwhelming consensus of independent sources is that a given person or group is a terrorist then it may be appropriate to describe that person/group as a terrorist in their article even if they had not been convicted of such (we would probably note the lack of conviction though). That is a WP:WAX argument though - whether any other group is described as terrorist is irrelevant to whether this group should be. Thryduulf (talk) 02:22, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

IP

The IP edit reverted is WP:OR. It has no mention of the Jewish underground's bombings of the mayors. And it was incorrectly formatted.= Yehuda Z. BLUM, A/35/207 S/13923 5 May 1980 Nishidani (talk) 19:00, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Fatuous editing

Shrike. Adding attribution to the use of the word terrorist for Israel's designated internal terrorist group is fatuous.Nishidani (talk) 15:53, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Even in Al-Qaeda page its says who designate this organisation as terrorist.If you prefer some other wording I would be happy to hear it.--Shrike (talk) 16:27, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Al Qaeda is a non-national global terrorist organization, and the analogy fails. In this case, when a democratic nation, e.g. Israel, defines one of its constituent elements a 'terrorist' group it is not a political definition, but reflects law. When one uses 'according to (nation)...' as in 'According to Israel' the semantic insinuation is that the designation is not shared by other nations, and thus the Jewish Underground may not be a terrorist organization according to other state actors, which is plainly nonsense, since Israel's designation for its own constituent population, even if they are in the territories, has international ramifications in terms of treaties and accords (Interpol etc). If you examine

Domestic terrorism in the United States, you will find numerous pages designating groups as examples of 'domestic terrorism' which is what the Jewish Underground was. I.e.

• Symbionese Liberation Army
• Phineas Priesthood
• The Order (white supremacist group)
• The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord
• Aryan Nations
• Earth Liberation Front etc.etc.

Attribution is not needed.Nishidani (talk) 17:20, 6 March 2018 (UTC)