Talk:Jesse James Keitel

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Now identifies as female

On September 23, 2021, she posted on Instagram with the caption "It's a girl" and changed her listed pronouns in bio to "she/her" https://www.instagram.com/p/CUL9hAgLV83/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Evilvolus (talk • contribs) 01:42, 10 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This man now 'identifies' as a 'women'. It's fine to say such. But, he is a man. Why is it omitted from the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.55.50 (talk) 04:15, 29 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

She is not a man. She is a woman. She is a transgender woman, which IS clearly mentioned in the article. Brettalan (talk) 04:25, 30 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but for the sake of encyclopedic clarity, the article ought to state what her assigned gender was at the start of her career, before her decision to transition. This would make, for example, her career move to working as a drag artist clearer, i.e., not as a drag king.

Nuttyskin (talk) 09:40, 9 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Identification

@Nightscream: I disagree with this edit. We don't have any source that states Jesse identifies as both non-binary and a trans woman - not to mention that these terms appear mutually exclusive. We have a source from a few years back that describes her identification of non-binary and transfeminine, and then a more recent one that describes her as a trans woman (aligning with what appears to be her Instagram coming out as a woman, as linked above). Of course, a person's gender identification can very validly change over time. It would be great to have clearer sources, but in their absence the only way to reflect this apparent shift respectfully while avoiding original research is to state that she is a trans woman, per the most recent reliable source, and has previously identified as non-binary. I strongly believe this needs to be changed back. U-Mos (talk) 04:49, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The source is the one cited at the end of the passage in question. Nightscream (talk) 12:18, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

At no point does that source refer to Jesse as a woman. U-Mos (talk) 12:28, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The source I mentioned above supports the passage in the Wikipedia article that reads, "She identifies as both non-binary and transgender." The passage after that refers to her as a trans woman, and is supported by the source cited at the end of that passage. Nightscream (talk) 13:45, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As I clearly outlined above, the issue is the present tense. The information we have strongly indicates her identification has changed, as the newest source contradicts the first: not non-binary, but a woman. Would you like to respond to that? U-Mos (talk) 16:32, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

NB You have misquoted the article above; what you write would be an improvement, though I would still object to it for the reason stated. U-Mos (talk) 16:36, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What information do we have strongly indicating her identification has changed?

The NBC article identifying her as non-binary is from December 1, 2020. The Los Angeles magazine article identifying her as a trans is from June 9, 2022. One is dated six months after the other, but that doesn't automatically mean that how she self-identifies has changed. She certainly might have, but drawing the conclusion from these two articles is hardly conclusive. Or did you refer to other sources not yet in the WP article?

How have I misquoted the article? The only article I've quoted is the Wikipedia article, and the quote, "She identifies as both non-binary and transgender" taken directly from the text of that article, so how is it a misquote? Or do you mean that I misrepresented something in the NBC or LA magazine articles? Nightscream (talk) 20:35, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Wikipedia article reads "she identifies as both non-binary and a transgender woman". For the last time: the most recent source contradicts the earlier one, so that's what we should use. How exactly do you think it's beneficial for an article to read as contradictorily as that sentence currently does? If there were a source describing someone as a confirmed bachelor, and a later one describing them as happily married, should their Wikipedia article read "They are single and married"? It's the same principle. U-Mos (talk) 22:59, 1 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please explain where I misquoted an article? I'll address your latter point after that. Nightscream (talk) 13:16, 2 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You quoted the article as "She identifies as both non-binary and transgender". It actually reads "she identifies as both non-binary and a transgender woman". I'm going to suggest a compromise: "She has identified as both non-binary and a transgender woman". That covers the discrepancy to some extent. U-Mos (talk) 20:41, 2 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I did no such thing. The passage in question is not a quote, as it has no quotation marks. It's a paraphrase, based on the cited sources. Where do you see quotation marks? Please look again. Nightscream (talk) 13:40, 3 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If I may suggest a third opinion, consider this:

Sources and testimonies conflict on his or her (or whatever the proper pronouns you want to use here) gender identity, though most recently he or she (again, whatever pronouns make sense) has identified as (insert gender identities here). Use what came out most recently from a reliable source.

Hope my suggestion helps! InvadingInvader (talk) 04:50, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And a fourth opinion: I agree the statement "Keitel identifies as both non-binary and a transgender woman" is inappropriate in the present tense. The statement is contradictory. The compromise "She has identified as both non-binary and a transgender woman" is not wrong, but not as informative as we can be. I think the old text works, but if necessary it can be made explicit ("In 2020, she was described as a non-binary actor. As of 2022, she identifies as a transwoman and uses she/her pronouns").

I disagree with the third opinion suggestion. I don't think sources conflict, as both sources are likely correct. Femke (talk) 12:00, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks both for your input. I've implemented the most explicit suggestion from Femke, which looks to be a very good compromise between all the positions stated above. U-Mos (talk) 21:32, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I reviewed MOS:GENDERID and added more information from the NBC News source, which I think helps clarify the Personal life section and avoid the appearance of possible original research if only 'non-binary' is described instead of what is stated by the source - while she was described as non-binary in 2020, she was also described as transgender, and it seems beneficial to include the complete information from the 2020 source as well as her preferred pronouns reported at the time for additional clarification. Beccaynr (talk) 18:01, 15 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]