Talk:Jerry Sandusky

Factual innocence of Sandusky

I don't mean to raise a debate about this topic, people who've read the entirety of the first trial transcript and know surrounding events wouldn't question this.

(A few examples: that jurors said a reason they voted JS is guilty was because JS didn't take the stand; JS didn't take the stand because lawyer Amendola had received information from the prosecution making him think that Matt S was accusing his adopted dad, and would be brought in to testify in rebuttal; finally, Matt S, at that time, had actually said to police only that he actually did *not* have any recollection of oral or anal sex etc (specific quote "Asked whether he recalled engaging in oral sex or being raped by the former Penn State coach, he told police "at this point I don't recall that.") --- but rather that was in therapy and his therapist was predicting that in the future he *soon would* start having such recollections. Or, second example: victim 6, JS was convicted of grooming for future abuse, and who said, he hadn't thought of intimate showers with an older father figure as abusive until he learned of the *other* accusers. Or, v1 whose testimony exactly matched JS about kissing on the lower stomach, who only agreed to accuse JS of oral sex on behalf of others, on learning that v4 had accused him. While lawyer Andreozzi had, very ethically, tape-recorded cops lying to v4 and saying, even if v4 did manage to keep his face clear during wrestling with JS, oral sex happened with *other* kids. Or, another example, the janitor and police putting together conversations and events over many years to prove Calhoun had witnessed a sexual act when Calhoun had denied it (tape recording transcribed here ) --during the crucial evening described by the other janitors mentioned sexual acts and war injuries in Korea. Or McQueary saying he didn't see it but he knew had witnessed a tall adult and 10 year old child standing together quietly having sex. In short, what the jury heard was the end-result of a long game of iterated whispers under a sustained and very ethical and well-intentioned police investigation and prosecution).

A crucial issue is that the Jury system is considered the best and fairest system, and the case was presented in a very fair, balanced way by the police and the prosecutors. The appeals have failed because everyone was scrupulously fair and careful. All of A. Fisher, M. Sandusky, and A. Myers have said enough to suggest that they would recant if there were a way to do so without giving back the settlement money.

Others have mentioned needing to give the police the testiony they needed, because of being under pressure and being charged with other things, wanting to cooperate.

When police are allowed to lie to suspects and witnesses during an inveestigation, one thing is that this can have unintended consequences. Yes, telling a likely sexual abuse victim that others have already spoken out, could give a shy guy the courage to admit that he too was abused as a child in the same way. But, the difficulty is that the lie also creates a motivation --- if police have convinced someone that there is a guilty bad guy, and all we need is someone to say what will convict them in court, it wouldn't be unethcial to lie.

When the preponderance of evidence is huge, there is a motivation to think, this guy was guilty, all I need to do is say he did it to me, and even if he didn't that doesn't matter, because we are going to be putting away a monster who abused other guys too shy to admit it.

Here in the U.K. Carl Beech was eventually understood not to have been descrbing real events.

The situation here is different. It is more like -- to fabricate an example "You went swimming with the guy dozens of times, his hands would have been all over you. Are you saying his hands *never once* touched your swimsuit?" "I'm not saying that." Many such police interviews are on the record, like the one where the recorded police interview of Matt Sandusky was given to the press. Where the interviewer describes JS putting MS to bed at night, saying "And his hand would go alongside your genital [sic]" and MS answers "yes."

To determine factual guilt or factual innocence...well, for factual guilt, something like a CCTV recording of the abuse taking place would settle it. Or, even *one* witness whose story started out describing abuse, rather than whose story drifted over many years, into a territory where a financial settlement was acquired, and just enough was said for that, and the circumstantial evidence just gets added.

The original judge Cleland gave some jury instructions saying, if you woke up and saw footprints in the snow, that would be good circumstantial evidence that a deer had been in your garden.

I think that the judge was competent and this bears thinking about. If you saw the snow just disrupted, like a Rorshach test, it wouldn't be right to let someone point out features in the snow: "that's where his hand moved when he was hitting him, that's where he fell the first time, that's where he fell the second time, that's where some rabbits ran through...."

I the JS case...when the case was so prominent, when there were so many investigators, so many witnesses (600 children from second mile interviewed, of whom a few made accusations eventually, a 1-800 tip line etc etc), there is a huge preponderance of circumstantial evidence.

It is very easy for people who've read a few press reports to get angry and upset and say, this guy deserved his punishment. But, when you follow any one piece of evidence, and try to understand it in context, the context actually contradicts totally the interpretation that is being used in evidence.

In stories of things that happened 10 or 20 years ago, it is just so easy for two stories that could have happened a year apart to get merged into something that happened one particular day. After Calhoun said he'd seen sexual abuse, not long afterwards, the same night, JS's car was in the parking lot with a child in the car. And the same night, he had been walking hand-in-hand with a child in the gymnasium hallway. The same night.

Or McQueary's account -- now that the dates are known, the timeline of the events was not what he said/ thought at all.

Witness statements from long ago do have to be allowed, and people do much later need to be able to level accusations of sexual abuse. However, the vagueness that results from distant recollections, combined with the massive amount of publicity and evidence collected, mean that the phenomenon of a jury trial where a few pieces of evidence are examined, and the jury is encouraged to consider circumstantial evidence, requires a jury with a really good understanding of context.

The main example of how the jury didn't understand context was in how A. Fisher's testimony resulted from a number of grand jury hearings over the years. How the story was developed over time, from one which the first grand jury rejected to one which the second grand jury eventually reluctantly accepted. But it was presented to the jury as a description of just moments in time, when abuse was taking place.

The jury didn't understand that both JS and AF had described actual kissing of the lower stomach -- as weird as that is -- taking place quite often around bedtime. Not *specifically* the lower stomach, but, the point is, including lots of places, and *not particularly excluding* the lower stomach, including that fake farting type of thing which people usually do to babies. Babies that are lucky enough to have a father.

Well, anyway, the issue is (and this is not the place to debate this) that a factually innocent person was convicted, but not because of anyone's wrong-doing. The prosecution (particularly McGettigan) went to very very extreme lengths to be fair. Even making the accusations in a sort-of almost ironic way, saying that the second mile Charity was a conveyor belt for sex abuse.

I guess there is no way for Wikipedia to have a list of factually innocent people who have been convicted of crimes and not yet cleared. Partly because, the accpeted way of determiing factual innocence is a jury trial. And I actually know of no better way.

It is not with any particular authority that I say JS is factually innocent. Rather, I am saying, he just is, as is clear to anyone who reads all the evidence.

It isn't something that can be proven in any particular way. Createangelos (talk) 17:09, May 30, 2020 (UTC)

References

Graham Spanier Wikipedia Page

This is for discussion of when a "Belief in Wrongful Conviction" section will be added to the Jerry Sandusky and Penn State Sex Abuse wikipedia pages.

The Graham Spanier Wikipedia page now mentions that the accusers have been discredited.

Graham Spanier - Wikipedia

"A review of the book in Library Journal states that Spanier's memoir “... refutes the highly disputed report prepared by former FBI director Louis Freeh…. Using evidence obtained through freedom of information laws and other sources, the author documents how many of his accusers have since been discredited and makes a convincing case of his innocence.”

It also mentions how this case exposes issues in our justice system.

Edward Rendell, former Pennsylvania governor, wrote a testimonial for Spanier's account, saying “It is undeniable that this book raises real questions about our justice system.”

We know our justice system is not infallible. One need only to look at the Innocence Project and this listing would only be the tip of the iceberg: Cases - Innocence Project

So what does it say about society that we know Jerry Sandusky is innocent, yet society will not even permit a discussion of innocence for a man who dedicated his life to helping others? We view turning a blind eye to sex abuse as being an unpardonable sin. But what about turning a blind eye to issues in our justice system that perpetuate innocent people being convicted?

When will it be OK to tell the truth in this case? When Jerry is dead? If that is the case, I fear for our nation.

Editors, what would it take to get a belief in wrongful conviction section added to the main article?

Wikinovice1 (talk) 19:14, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi, it might help if there were a cosensus about what went wrong. If it's just a one-off because of the unusual publicity of the case, it is sad, but on the other hand, if this just happens to be the only case we know about among many uninvestigated, there could be a responsibility not only to understand the failings in this one case, but to try to understand if there might be other less-publicized cases in vast numbers of innocent guys languishing in prison or having lost their job or position in a church or gym because of misunderstood kindness. On the other side of things, just focussing on this case in particular, there have been films about the case (more than one), it was discussed by John Stewart on the Daily Show early on. There is Sandusky's unusual dedication to philanthropy (the Second Miile charity), his connection to the football program, the firing of a university president, the way the state Attorney General K. Kane was drawn into the debate (wasn't she actually imprisoned?) . So one worry is, this is just a tiny case if there are many less publicized miscarriages of justice.. but there is the opposite interpretation that this is a huge case deserving a bigger lesson or conclusion about universities or chldren or compassion or media, that would need to be drawn than just some people doubt the evidence. It is just a confusing tragedy maybe. Createangelos (talk) 16:52, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

There have been many cases. McMartin, Wenatchee Washington etc. Fortunately in those justice prevailed but as in Wenatchee, entire families were forced to flee to Canada because of the insanity of police and prosecutors believing a mentally ill girl who would drive through town with her police officer father pointing out random people on the street that she would say abused her. But I would say the Sandusky case launched the false accusation cottage industry. Jimmy Savile, Trevor Bauer. I will get some more. There was one in Texas recently. Wikinovice1 (talk) 20:29, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

I am going to paste a few recent cases in. Brian Banks of course is a good example of a good life ruined:

https://www.hawaiiinnocenceproject.org/brian-banks

Outcry Season 1: Watch Episodes Online | SHOWTIME

A five-part documentary series examining the gripping story of high school football star Greg Kelley and a quest for truth and justice. Few people experience the momentum that Kelley had going into his senior year in Leander, Texas. That all changed when he was convicted of sexual assault of a four-year-old boy, and sentenced to 25 years in prison with no possibility for parole. But a groundswell of support emerged for Kelley, calling into question the investigation, the prosecution's tactics and ultimately, the validity of the conviction.

Former Baltimore high school wrestling coach found not guilty in child sex abuse case - CBS Baltimore (cbsnews.com)

BALTIMORE -- Neil Adleberg, a former prominent wrestling coach, has been found not guilty on all charges related to accusations he assaulted a former wrestler he took under his wing in 2013 and 2014.

The verdict arrived after closing arguments were heard on Thursday.

Adleberg, 75, was accused of child sexual abuse dating back to 2013 and 2014 when he was assisting with the Mount Saint Joseph High School wrestling team. His alleged victim was 17 years old at the time.

Basically it is an epidemic and I think the Sandusky case would wake people up. How to Create a Sex Scandal: The Story Behind the Docuseries (texasmonthly.com) Wikinovice1 (talk) 21:12, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Deleted paragraph/Shubin

Hi, I had written on MonMothma's user page and decided to bring my comments here. For a long time the last paragraph of 'imprisonment' mentioned whatever was the most recent appeal action and why it had been denied. Admittedly my attempt to update it led to a long sentence by Barden (who was the forensic psych witness for the most recent failed appeal at Centre County) about the supreme court, various precedents, and whether expert witnesses should have been therapists or scientists. (Amendola had wanted a forensic Psych for the first trial but Cleland denied any continuance I think in the face of escalating publicity) and there was no time. Barden claimed the trial had been a 'death march to conviction' but it was turning into a circus and there could be valid reasons to try on existing evidence.

Anyway, I'm getting off topic here, the current last paragraph sort-of blames Shubin...and one must remember that as a civil lawyer his responsibility is towards his clients. Maybe a section would be useful in the article about what were the reasons for conviction. I would say, the jury was just out to lunch. But anyway, one thing was that the police interrogators were trained in drug enforcement, they didn't realize that the first witness statement is the most reliable, and pushed for witnesses to 'spill the beans.' The crucial changes in witness statements were v1 with encouragement from his therapisst Gillum,and v4 with encouragement from Leiter.

Both changes of tetimony are very clearly and accurately documented. The book "Silent no more" with authors listed as v1, his mom and therapist details the change of testimony -- which from the outside we see as starting from JS putting his mouth on the kids' stomach on rare occasions during bedtime play, and developing as it is undersstood that there had been layers of forgotten abuse the therapist had needed to unearth. Also the Moulton report, commissioned shortly after the trial, includes detailed evidence about the testimony of v1 changing over the course of several grand jury hearings. And for v4, his lawyer (Ben Andreozzi) very ethically made sure the police interview where v4 changed his mind was recorded, when the police (falsely) said that there already was evidence from many many kids that wrestling with js led to oral abuse. The tape recording was played for the jury.

An attentive jury would have acquitted. They didn't, the same evidence is still there. Is it just a tragedy when a jury gets it wrong despite a trial being mainly fair?

About Shubin, when the young investigator (AJ Dillen) went to him to trap him, he actually said he had been absued by JS but not at Penn State. Shubin's heart may have broken for the kid if he believed it, instead of asking for details he gave the kid a script about abuse at Penn State to help the kid collect his possible settlement. That is crminal maybe but not unethical if Shubin really believed JS was guilty. When the kid asked Shubin, how do you know JS is guilty, Shubin acted like the question had never arisen in his mind, saying well how else would you explain why someone would dedicate their life to young people.

The prosecution all along ring-fenced shubin away from any trial testimony. Prosecution was careful, ethical and rigorous. A forensic psych should have just told the jury that for cases like this you have to go with the first witness statements, not ones that develop over years of pressure and millions of dollars of settlements being collected.

So I think it was slightly wrong to delete the paragrpah which I had written just quoting Barden....

Maybe there could as I say be a section listing factors that led to the conviction. To have a 'bad guy' lawyer to blame is satisfying but not the actual main reason.Createangelos (talk) 22:03, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

I would love to hear a member of the jury respond to all that has come out post conviction. I don't totally blame them since prosecutors openly lied in court as well as the narrative told by the media was to taint the jury pool. But they have to be upset at how they were used. This was a moral panic that we all took part in. I think we think we would not have another Salem Witch Trial psychosis. This case shows that we can and did. Wikinovice1 (talk) 20:55, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

The issue with the prosecutors is hard, McGettigan made his summing-up speech saying, when he has prosecuted murderers, and they are found guilty, he always feels as though (by disbelieving their protestations of innocence) he is carrying their souls in his pocket. But this time, he feels that he is carrying in his pocket the souls of the `victims.' I vaguely remember, he said, usually prosecutors will show a slide of a victim on the screen, but i want you to see this, and showed Sandusky on the screen. In the section where Sandusky had supposedly was seen having relations with a small child, the prosecution did a mockup, and included a 3 legged stool for the model of the child to stand on so that the act could be physically possible. (The jury ruled 'innocent' on that, the only one charge that had supposedly been contemporaneously witnessed rather than 'recovered'). McGettigan referred to the entire Second Mile charity as a 'conveyor belt for abuse,' and he talked about how out of all those kids, these few (now adult) kids who testified are going to be accused of being just greedy. McGettigan said, the victim McQueary saw in the shower is 'known only to God.' Speaking to witnesses, he acted faux-defensive and said, "but did I *personally* twist your arm? Did I *personally* force you to say what you are saying?" By being gentle, fair and balanced, and trustworthy, McGettigan may have inadvertently led the jury to trust the prosecution *case*. Somehow, the preceding months when it was deemed cruel and heartless to refer to the witnesses as anything but 'victims,' it did seem like the world had made up its mind. Maybe this was started by the Paterno children, who had known Sandusky since their childhood and referred to praying for the 'victims.' It seemed then they had witnessed years and years of abuse....but no....they all eventually said they had not happened to ever witness anything that should make it clear, or even suggest, that there were victims.... they made a PR decision on behalf of their dad Joe to clarify that they understand that victims don't lie, and the family would not support a suspected child abuser. Createangelos (talk) 01:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Createangelos and Wikinovice1, I will set aside my thoughts on the comments above and simply suggest that you please review WP:FORUM and WP:FRINGE. Thank you. MonMothma (talk) 03:17, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you MonMothma. I did read those and I do appreciate them as we certainly need to be careful and respect the reputation of Wikipedia. I like that Wikepedia does try to vet. For example, some neighbors today were promoting a guy on Joe Rogan and a quick look at Wikepedia gave me all I needed to know to call BS. But may I also offer up a good place to review: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Innocence_Project

They estimate that between 1 and 10% of people in prison are innocent. Turning a blind eye to a clearly wrongful conviction is morally wrong. Best regards and again, I hear and respect what you are saying above. Wikinovice1 (talk) 21:18, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

New wave of journalistic interest in innocence position

Frank Parlato of the "Frank Report" has been doing on ongoing series of articles detailing Jerry Sandusky's innocence. They hit hard on the accusers, prosecutors, etc. in the case. For purposes of maintaining a knowledge base for when the "Belief in Innocence" section is added, I will list them here. They are ongoing so the list will be growing. The first article is not chronological. It is being listed first since it outlines why Frank Parlato will not give up the fight and his call for other journalists to stand up for truth and justice.

"The Plan to Expose the False Conviction of Jerry Sandusky"

https://frankreport.com/2024/01/15/the-plan-to-expose-the-false-conviction-of-jerry-sandusky/

"Did Jerry Sandusky Get a Fair Trial? – The Answer Is ‘No’"

https://frankreport.com/2023/12/25/did-jerry-sandusky-get-a-fair-trial-the-answer-is-no/

"The Unheard Side of the Sandusky Story: Did Aaron Fisher Lie?"

https://frankreport.com/2024/01/05/the-unheard-side-of-the-sandusky-story-did-aaron-fisher-lie/

"Did Aaron Fisher Mislead Authorities in Sandusky Case? Looks Like He Did!"

https://frankreport.com/2024/01/09/did-aaron-fisher-mislead-authorities-in-sandusky-case-looks-like-he-did/

"From Trailer Park to Millions: Sabastian Paden’s Rise to Wealth Through Testifying in Jerry Sandusky Trial"

https://frankreport.com/2024/01/12/from-trailer-park-to-millions-sabastian-padens-rise-to-wealth-through-testifying-in-jerry-sFrom Trailer Park to Millions: Sabastian Paden’s Rise to Wealth Through Testifying in Jerry Sandusky Trialandusky-trial/

Frank Parlato is an investigative journalist. https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Frank_Parlato_Jr.

His work has been cited in hundreds of news outlets, like The New York Times, The Daily Mail, VICE News, CBS News, Fox News, New York Post, New York Daily News, Oxygen, Rolling Stone, People Magazine, The Sun, The Times of London, CBS Inside Edition, among many others in all five continents.

His work to expose and take down NXIVM is featured in books like “Captive” by Catherine Oxenberg, “Scarred” by Sarah Edmonson, “The Program” by Toni Natalie, and “NXIVM. La Secta Que Sedujo al Poder en México” by Juan Alberto Vasquez. Wikinovice1 (talk) 00:31, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

• I wouldn't consider one investigative reporter doing work to be a "wave", so it doesn't merit any coverage at this point; he's still a convicted child molester at this time, who chose not to testify at his trial.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 01:50, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

  Frank is on "Search Warrant" as I type and he just laid out a bunch of writers on the topic I was not familiar with and I thought I followed it pretty closely. Clearly the truth has been surprised in the mainstream media. Keenan Trotter of "Business Insider" discusses how he is broken by his industry that refuses to let the truth see the light of day. Years factchecking "Most Hated Man in America," and it is suppressed. Sad.

  "The Insider, Keenan Trotter on how learning the truth about the Penn State Scandal led to his disillusionment with journalism ending Zig's most recent hope of exposing the truth about Joe Paterno and Jerry Sandusky."

  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-death-of-journalism/id1650632627?i=1000613178789

  Note: my response to Millowent is really not a substantive comment. But two mainstream journalists did fact check this case and are 100 percent sure Sandusky is innocent. So I think this link is appropriate for the knowledge base on documenting how truth and justice in this case was actively suppressed because historians in the future will want to track how society let this happen. Wikinovice1 (talk) 20:33, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

  Milowent, you raised a good question and it deserves a full answer. I see a list has been created to address your question. It does not have Malcomb Gladwell and Keenan Trotter, and it acknowledges it is a partial list for now. But as to your question, here you are: https://frankreport.com/2024/01/18/renowned-academics-and-investigators-challenge-jerry-sanduskys-conviction/ Wikinovice1 (talk) 21:55, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

• Interesting to be sure, but none of this reporting is anywhere near the threshold of reliable mainstream reporting. Michael Jackson was also innocent according to swathes of the Internet. Sandusky was also very possibly abused by his father, but that is another claim without valid sourcing to put in this article. If your goal is to get "jerry is innocent" claims into this wikipedia article, I'm afraid its very likely never going to happen.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 14:25, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

  The Micael Jackson analogy is good. Yes, the internet said he was innocent and that is what the courts ruled. Another case of false accusations for money. I don't get why "Most Hated Man in America" does not trump the media for facts now that two reporters spent years fact checking "Most Hated Man in America." The New York Times published a story saying Matt Sandusky tried to commit suicide because of Sandusky. Matt's girlfriend said, no, it was a joint suicide attempt because the Sandusky's don't permit sex outside of marriage especially under their roof. Again, if they seemingly consistently report 100 percent the opposite of the facts, why are they the arbiters of truth in this case? The New York Times should have said Matt tried to kill himself because the Sandusky's don't condone sex outside of marriage. https://www.framingpaterno.com/node/485 The email from the girlfriend is very interesting. Wikinovice1 (talk) 20:02, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

  I'm pleased that someone is still thinking about this. Here in Britain the main news sources are full of stories about the miscarriages of justice due to the Post office needing to protect their Horizon computer system. It is just so hard to find any analogous focus to collect together diverse sources about Sandusky and there might not be any. Judge Cleland allowed unusual ('excited utterance' hearsay exception) evidence that Calhoun may have been heard stating that he'd seen someone abusing a child and the people who heard this identify who it was, Sandusky who had been seen holding hands with a child in a hallway or sitting with a child in a car. A tape recording of Calhoun in his own words saying he had never seen Sandusky abusing a child and knows he would never do that, was among the discovery evidence, but either not seen in time or discounted based on the notion that it may have been the start of Calhoun's dementia. One man phoned the 1-800 tip line to say yes as a child he'd been picked up and immediately raped while hitchiking by a man in a silver car and from the photo he thinks it was Sandusky. Victim 6 agreed in the same first trial transcript that Sandusky befriended him at his Mom's request (when, it is now known, he had had cancer as a child and no father). They would shower together after workouts and nothing sexual happened, he said, He would for instance be held up with his hair under the cascade, it substantiated the criminal charge of grooming for planned abuse which could have happened in the future thus illegal but hapenned not to happen.Createangelos (talk) 00:41, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Createangelos and Wikinovice1, back in November, I noticed some discussion here on the talk page about Sandusky's alleged innocence and gently suggested that you each review WP:FORUM and WP:FRINGE. Two months later, the two of you are still pushing this theme here on the talk page. Let me remind you more strongly: Wikipedia is not a discussion forum or a place to promote fringe theories. MonMothma (talk) 03:35, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Again, I totally get where you are coming from, and again, I did read the links before to get an understanding of your statements. On Wednesday we will get an update on the Federal appeal. Should that move forward, everything linked will be clearly relevant. I don't know how facts over hearsay could be fringe, but I don't want to argue. So lets see how this long awaited federal appeal plays out and I will not post anything more. Wikinovice1 (talk) 17:37, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Daily Mail Coverage of Medical Records

The Daily Mail became the first mainstream news source to release Jerry Sandusky's medical records. These records cast doubt on the accusations against him and give credence to those who believe Sandusky to be an innocent man. This page is about Jerry Sandusky. His medical records are an integral piece of who this man is and accordingly it is past the time to tell a complete picture of who he is and what happened to him. It is time for the Belief in Innocence section to be added to this page. Shocking twist in Jerry Sandusky case as new medical evidence could have proven former Penn State coach's innocence - but was left out of trial because he was too EMBARRASSED | Daily Mail Online Wikinovice1 (talk) 17:04, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

And of course the editors removed this article from the main page because the Daily Mail is a "depreciated news" source. We are living in the age when all legacy news is depreciated. The truth is the truth. These are medical records and are the most fact based piece of evidence in the whole case. But can't have facts in this case. No. We can't have the legacy media take any more hits to their reputation. Granted I get this case will be the final blow for legacy media. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikinovice1 (talk • contribs) 17:03, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

...trying to understand why DailyMail was deprecated...the articles always seem accurate to me once you get past the clickbait headlines. The issue of headlines can matter. The late Terry Crewes' article accuses Ganim's PennLive headline writer of putting out a headlines saying "Former coach Sandusky used his charity to abuse kids." Crewes exaggerates; the Pennlive article itself was balanced and the headline more correctly was "Report: former coach Sandusky used his charity to abuse kids." Crewes' criticism of Ganim if we overlook his exaggeration is on the same basis as Wikipedia's deprecation of DailyMail. A member of the public even who might end up as a potential juror for the trial can glance at a headline saying "Report: former coach Sandusky used his charity to abuse kids" and think it actually does say what Crewes claimed: "Former coach Sandusky used his charity to abuse kids." The word-choice of 'report' by the sub-editor isn't even very redeeming, it could make it seem like the article would describe the conclusion of a balanced investigation rather than a hypothetical prosecution case. What is monstrous is how only after the trial did any coherent analysis start to take place like the actual Moulton report, or Ziegler noticing how in all the testimony no one was ever intimate at the gym, and no-one ever had their clothes off if they were being fostered/adopted/sleeping at home. Prosecutor McGettigan very ethically flagged up for the jury flaws and contradictions in the commonwealth case (maybe you shouldn't trust juries to do irony). What should have been impossible is any legal authority seriously presiding over over such a crappy evidentiary standard and whole circumstantial ball of meaningless innuendo. And it happens all the time in criminal cases.Createangelos (talk) 01:18, 27 July 2024 (UTC)