Talk:Jennie Smillie Robertson/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: ImmortalWizard (talk · contribs) 21:15, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Yulp, I'll take over. I don't have enough background knowledge on science but it'll be fine. I am busy in life and this review might take days. Are you with me nominator? ImmortalWizard(chat) 21:15, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

ImmortalWizard Sure thing! It shouldn't be very science/medicine heavy and I'm at a similar status in life right now anyway. Thanks! originalmess^{how u doin that busta rhyme?} 23:15, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

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Lead

 Note: Since it's the lead, I might frequently add and alter my opinions throughout the review *Page move to "Jennie Smillie" since it's more common?

Most of the sources are titled/refer to her as Smillie Robertson or Smillie until she's married, the latter of which I followed. Not sure originalmess^{how u doin that busta rhyme?}

I think that's fine. ImmortalWizard(chat) 19:11, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

• Couldn't she be also known as a "social reformer" or "activist" or sth?

I don't think there's much information on her political work outside of org memberships/restarting the hospital :/ originalmess^{how u doin that busta rhyme?}

• "Canadian" does not require wikilink
• "gynecological surgery" should be wikilinked
• Shouldn't it be better to keep only surgeon as occupation, since physician is similar?
• "...was a Canadian obstetrics and gynaecology surgeon and physician. She was the first modern female surgeon in Canada and performed the country's first major gynecological surgery." - I would change to "...was a Canadian surgeon. She performed the first major gynecological surgery in Canada and was the country's first woman of her occupation". Any better modification would be appreciated.
• "Born on a farm, she displayed an interest in medicine from an early age. Smillie taught school and saved her salary to pay for medical school." - I think this could be written in a more professional way.

How are the above two now? originalmess^{how u doin that busta rhyme?}

Seems much better. ImmortalWizard(chat) 20:27, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

• Her year of death shoudn't be repeated, only the age is enough.
• What does "modern" mean? It could be replaced with "recorded" which is in one of the sources.

Modern meaning in modern history (in contrast to trepanation performed by early aboriginal Canadians, for example); however, recorded fits just as well and is probably less confusing. Changed originalmess^{how u doin that busta rhyme?}

Please look at the changes I made. ImmortalWizard(chat) 19:46, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Coming to this as a first time reader, I found "modern knowledge" jarring. I proposed different wording, but will defer to those working on the GA process. David notMD (talk) 10:52, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Awesome, never knew about that page. Tbh I think modern is more understandable to a layperson, but I don't have a problem with either wording (modern vs scientific) though. I do think calling her a doctor with surgical training makes it unclear that she was foremost a surgeon, not just a doctor who knew about surgery. Would it be better to replace the description entirely with "first (maybe insert professional or trained here?) female surgeon in Canada"? originalmess^{how u doin that busta rhyme?} 01:30, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

• "the country's first major gynecological surgery" to me, it would be an entirely different statement if "in a patient's home", which is mentioned in the body. nevermind
• "Ontario Medical College for Women" wikilink?

Infobox

• Ontario Medical College for Women (merged into University of Toronto), M.D. 1909 - I don't think M.D. and date is required here
• Ontario Medical College for Women (merged into University of Toronto) wikilink the colleges?

Early life and education

• "his wife" is not required and should be removed to avoid gender neutrality. good catch thank you! Can't believe how long that's been there originalmess^{how u doin that busta rhyme?}
• "Born on February 10, 1878, a farm outside of Hensall, Ontario, she was the fourth child of Benjamin Smilie (1839–1886) and his wife, Jane Smillie (née Buchanan) (1849–1906). She had six siblings." - I would suggest rewriting as "Jennie Smillie was born on February 10, 1878, on a farm near Hensall, Ontario, the fourth child of Jane (née Buchanan, 1849-1906) Benjamin Smillie (1839–1886). She had six siblings."

How's the new version? originalmess^{how u doin that busta rhyme?}

• I feel like it's better to condense the second paragraph in the first. "During her childhood..." should be in between the first line and "Later in life..."
• "Ontario Medical College for Women" could be wikilinked to here
• "During her childhood, both her parents were interested in education; since they lived on a farm, she and her siblings walked two and a half miles to attend public schools in Hensall. Later, Smillie paid for room and board to attend public schools in Seaforth, Ontario." - this sentences could merged and shortened to make it much better.

Better? Edit: ty for ce both comments above. originalmess^{how u doin that busta rhyme?}

• " In 1906, during her second year of medical school, the College was" - college small letter please
• @Originalmess: I would like to stop here now. A lot of copyediting is required and I don't think this article pass the criteria. I do allow a lot of time for improvement. But considering your busy life, and the amount of work you had to do here, I don't think it will work. I haven't even started to do fact checking and I already have a lot of issues regarding sentence construction, prose and coverage. It is in quite low standards and I am hesitant to pass it at the moment. Should I continue or would you like to take more time and renominate? ImmortalWizard(chat) 16:00, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

ImmortalWizard Ah. So. About that. I forgot I originally tried over-expanding it to meet DYK expansion requirements (yes, like a student would try to pad an essay for word count) but gave up and haven't rewritten it since. Just did a minor rewrite, would you mind taking a look again? And what are your concerns on coverage? originalmess^{how u doin that busta rhyme?} 01:42, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

"...to save for tuition for the Ontario Medical College for Women" - in Toronto?

Before I started editing, the article referred to the Kingston campus, but I remember looking for it in the sources and not being able to find that specified anywhere. The source you can't access actually says "Women's Medical College of Toronto". Edit: Ah, and source #4 as well (Ogilvie and Harvey). originalmess^{how u doin that busta rhyme?}

Career

• "Medical internships in Canada were difficult for women to obtain in the early 1900s" couldn't find the time period in the source. Probably avoid "the early 1900s"?
• "first woman surgeon in general" I don't get it and could be replaced with recorded as I said earlier.

It was to clarify that she's not just the first woman to perform gynecological surgery - I've taken it out, let me know if that's less clear without it

I made some changes. ImmortalWizard(chat) 19:48, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

• "surgical ward" could it be wikilinked to "Surgical nursing"?

That article has a tag from 2010 saying it might only be relevant to Australia :/

Last years and legacy

• I would change the title from "last" to "later" for formality
• "though she had met him forty years prior" they met in 1898 and if you do the math, it was fifty years prior

Good catch, the source has an error

• " She commented that, "I first met the man I was to marry many years later, in 1898 while I was teaching. At that time I was planning for medicine, not marriage, and I didn’t think I could have both."" I don't think this is worth mentioning and could be removed.

I've cut it down and put it in context - still remove?

References

• It's not a huge requirement, but would be much better to use short citations according to the MOS:NOTES

How would I implement these here? All of the sources with page numbers use information from one page only, and the rest are in an online format with no page numbers. originalmess^{how u doin that busta rhyme?}

My bad. It should be fine. ImmortalWizard(chat) 19:53, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

• It says she was the third child and "family of seven" means that she had four siblings. (in ref 5). I can't access the source which says she was the fourth and had six siblings.

"Born Feb. 10, 1878, on a farm near Hensall, Ont., one of seven children, Jennie Smillie first became a teacher, saving enough from her $300-a-year salary to enroll in 1903 in the Women's Medical College of Toronto." Good catch, here's all the text from the source that mentions it. I'm not really sure which one to follow. originalmess^{how u doin that busta rhyme?}

If the information is disputed, maybe it's better not to write about it at all. It's best to archive it on the talk page. ImmortalWizard(chat) 19:59, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

I made it vague enough to be technically correct, let me know if I should just remove it originalmess^{how u doin that busta rhyme?}

• I don't have access to ref 4, I will assume good faith and it would be beneficially if you could verify it.

Hmmm how do I verify it?

I meant to fact check and make sure all the information match properly (providing there could be sometimes misreading or misinterpretation. ImmortalWizard(chat) 20:03, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Got it. Aside from the sibling numbers above, the article lines up fairly well with most of the other sources. originalmess^{how u doin that busta rhyme?}

• " "History". villageofhensall.com. Retrieved 2018-08-28. " change the title of the source to "A Brief History of Hensall"

Results

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Originalmess I am almost ready to pass it. Before, that please look the comments. ImmortalWizard(chat) 20:02, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Awesome! Now it pretty much meets all the criteria. Passing it. ImmortalWizard(chat) 17:18, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for reviewing and giving great feedback! originalmess^{how u doin that busta rhyme?} 18:41, 21 January 2019 (UTC)