Talk:Jeffrey Dahmer/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Ancestry of mother?

What Jeffery's ancestry on his mother's side? What was his mother's maiden surname? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.99.132.30 (talk) 18:07, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

No idea, if that information were available, it would be included in the article. Wildhartlivie (talk) 23:43, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Book written by his father

Shouldn't it be inserted? , see [1] -- 88.75.94.0 (talk) 09:34, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Possibly; but obviously, it's not going to be a reliable source for most things. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:19, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it's the very first footnote in the article right now. That's about the right amount of mention for a single volume; this is not a bibliography of Dahmer-related works. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:23, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Wildhartlivie (talk) 18:33, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Time between killing Konerak Sinthasomphone and arrest

Was Konerak Sinthasomphone not declared missing? If he was - did police not link his disappearance back to Dahmer despite the incident with the police that night? Were no suspocions raised in the 2 months before he was finally caught?--213.94.229.173 (talk) 15:34, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Asian victims?

The line "most of whom were of African or Asian descent" should have the Asian reference removed. As best is my knowledge, there was only one victim of Asian descent, easily eclipsed by both Caucasians and Hispanics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MickjimWarabi (talk • contribs) 10:38, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

He had already preyed on another Asian kid, brother to the one he killed, and gotten busted for it. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:31, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

yeah i was thinking that only one of his murdered victims was asian and the line does state" murdered his victims of most of whom were asian or african descent" so i really do think it has to be removed. as 1 in 17 is not a most... 110.174.134.228 (talk) 06:55, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Changed it to "many". The fact that his victims were often not of the same race as himself is relevant because the standard profile of serial killers is that (for whatever reason) they tend to go after their own race. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:46, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I understand that its interesting that he didnt prey solely on his own race, but the line in question is simply not accurate. It should be reworded without the word Asian. MickjimWarabi (talk) 12:18, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

But then it would sound like most of the people were black, but the rest white. You want to make note that some of them were in fact Asian. Well, one at least... -BluWik (talk) 19:12, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

It should be because the fact that there were mixed ethnicities, not just Asian and African American victims. Noaru (talk) 23:31, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

TORTURE

Why torture, he didn't want to torture them, on youtube there is an interview with Stone Phillips, and he says he never wanted to torture them, it was not his purpose... --190.50.77.24 (talk) 04:05, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

The subject is notoriously not a reliable source. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:52, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

That is coming from the man who kept human heads in his freezer... -BluWik (talk) 19:08, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Update on John Balcerzak

Can we add that John Balcerzak is no longer President of the Milwaukee Police Associate?

"Balcerzak was later elected president of the Milwaukee Police Association in May 2005, [27][32] but lost his position at the end of December 2009.

66.215.9.79 (talk) 09:17, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Sure, I would put something like 'former' and then add your reference. Please be bold. Happy editing, --CrohnieGal^Talk 14:07, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Regardless of whether Balcerzak is still the President of the Milwaukee Police Association, the fact that he could hold such a position given the established notoriety of his incompetence and corruption on the job, speaks volumes for the appalling state of Milwaukee's law enforcement community. BlueRobe (talk) 02:26, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

This article is about Jeffery Dahmer not the Milwaukee law enforcement community so that is unnecessary trivia plus please keep in mind biographies of living people. Thanks, --CrohnieGal^Talk 11:42, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

It seems fair that unrelated trivia of John Balcerzak has no place in this lemma, but why is his name completely removed? Seems to be an important part of this story. Previous text as in version http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Jeffrey_Dahmer&diff=prev&oldid=370225654 could very well be placed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Billycobin5702 (talk • contribs) 20:08, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree that Balcerzak should be mentioned in this article, considering how royally he screwed up in relation to Dahmer being revealed as a serial killer. This is no BLP violation; it's on record, and his own article deals with the matter. I'm pretty certain it's the only reason he has a Wikipedia article. The following text should be reinstated, instead of that toned down text that is in the article now. This is what should be added back:

John Balcerzak and Joseph Gabrish, two of the three police officers who returned Sinthasomphone to Dahmer, were fired from the Milwaukee Police Department after their actions were widely publicized, including an audiotape of the officers making homophobic statements to their dispatcher and cracking jokes about having reunited the "lovers" and having to be "deloused". The two officers appealed their termination and were reinstated with back pay. They were named officers of the year by the police union for fighting a "righteous" battle to regain their jobs. Balcerzak later served a term as president of the Milwaukee Police Association.

If no one objects within a few days, I will be adding back this material. There isn't even a See also section where Balcerzak can be mentioned. Not having him mentioned at all in this article is ridiculous. Flyer22 (talk) 20:58, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Totally agreed. My first thought when I got to the bottom of the article was "But what happened to the policemen who gave him the kid back?!!" and I came to this talk page to find out (which I did, thanks). That paragraph really should be in there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.116.228 (talk) 02:42, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Okay, sorry that it took me so long to get around to doing this, but I finally added mention of Balcerzak back, although not all of what I stated I would.[2][3][4] Like I stated in my edit summary, the rest of that material has to do with what happened after Dahmer was discovered as a serial killer. If we are going to include that information on Balcerzak in this article, it is preferable that it is in chronological order. But either way, people can now click on the Balcerzak link to find out those details. Flyer22 (talk) 21:01, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Eddie Smith Age

All accounts I have read place his age at 28 when he was murdered by Dahmer in 1990. This article says 36. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.3.131.237 (talk) 02:21, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I want to bring up a discrepency with the caption of the image that is taken from Jeffrey Dahmer's interview with Stone Phillips.

It turns out that there is no such show as Dateline 20/20. The interview would have to be done on either Dateline NBC or 20/20. The interview looks like it was done on MSNBC; therefore, it seems the show was Dateline. I just thought that I'd point out that error. Backtable _{Speak to me}^{concerning my deeds.} 23:36, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I took notice of your edits and I felt your were correct with your first edit so I reverted you back to that edit. You second guessed yourself and seemed to have talked yourself out of the edit. :) You did good though catching this, thanks. Happy editing, --CrohnieGal^Talk 13:01, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Media portrayals

I was wondering if Macabre's concept album Dahmer would count as a media portayal of Jeffrey Dahmer motable enough to be in that section. It certainly isn't a passing mention about Dahmer; however, the invisible edit warnings does not speak of or explain whether musical portrayals of Jeffrey Dahmer would be accpetable. Would this be an exception to the "unless they are specific instances of portrayals of Dahmer in a broadcast, film or book" creed? Backtable _{Speak to me}^{concerning my deeds.} 23:48, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I don't know this band so I can't say one way or the other. The only thing I can suggest is to add it with references and see what happens. If it's not supposed to be there I would hope the editor would say why. Hope this helps a little. --CrohnieGal^Talk 13:06, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Umm..

"Dahmer murdered 17 men and boys – many of whom were of African or Asian descent..."

Why is this mentioned of the article doesn't state the ethnicites of the murdered? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.219.104 (talk) 03:22, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

It should also be mentioned that he may have chose people of this race because of his location, which is a very poor area. -BluWik (talk) 19:07, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

No, he seems to have gone out of his way to pick men and boys of color; most of his pick-ups seem to have been in Milwaukee's gay bars, not in his neighborhood (which is not, by the way, a heavily Asian neighborhood). --Orange Mike | Talk 16:05, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Does it really matter? --CrohnieGal^Talk 15:33, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

The local people of color, and the local gay community, have been repeatedly reported as suspecting that if Dahmer's victims had been white straights, the crimes would have been noticed far earlier, and a major interdepartmental taskforce would have been created to catch the killer. But since his victims were (mostly) men of color, and gay at that, their deaths went unnoticed and unheralded. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:46, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

If you read the article it clearly stated that unlike other serial killers he did not prey on a certain race he did it with all of them therefore no reason to list the races... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.150.139 (talk) 17:49, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

cultural references

I dont know how to edit wikipedia but in the cultural references section I just realized that in the movie "the ringer" from 2005 the main character's alias is homage to Jeffrey Dahmer, and even the wikipedia article on the movie recognizes this —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.45.164.147 (talk) 20:38, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Consensus is that this is so trivial as not to be worth mentioning in an article on Dahmer. --Orange Mike | Talk 15:04, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

"TBK - The Toolbox Murders" citing this article

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHwRT24oH2M

Ten seconds into the video: "His murders were particularly gruesome, involving rape, torture, dismemberment, necrophilia and cannibalism.". Then check the introduction in this article. I checked the article history, and it seems they got inspired by this article, and not the other way around! Is this flattering, or what!? --Beao 22:53, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

His brain

Dahmers brain was not actually kept for study. His mother wished for his brain to be kept for study as to help futher understand the make up of a psychopath. However his father disagreed he wanted the whole thing to be done with. They went to court, and the judge ruled in favor of Dahmers wishes as in his will and his brain was cremated with that body.

Source: Serial Killer Files by Harold Schechter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.95.56.209 (talk) 06:59, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

You are correct, Dahmer's brain was cremated with his body. I have edited out this comment and reference in the article. Supertheman ^(talk) 09:32, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Have you got a source for that, to trump the SOURCED AP report on which the previous language relied? --Orange Mike | Talk 21:16, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Unreferenced sections

More and more keeps being added that is unreference such as this section. I think if it's not referenced soon the best thing to do is remove the ones not referenced and move them to this talk page or just remove them completely. Articles are supposed to be referenced which is something I think everyone is aware of so I will removed them if they are not referenced in a reasonable amount of time. Thanks for your help in this matter, --CrohnieGal^Talk 15:29, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Jeffrey Dahmer - An Unauthorized Biography of a Serial Killer

What about adding in the "Jeffrey Dahmer - An Unauthorized Biography of a Serial Killer" comic by Hart Fisher/Boneyard Press? It's hard to find many news articles about it to citate it since it came out in the early nineties. But here is the Order page for the comic book and a News article referring to the comic Kie D K (talk) 12:02, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Sexual assault while in the military

"Billy Capshaw was 17 when he joined the Army in 1977. After being trained as a medic he was transferred to Baumholder, Germany. His roommate, Jeffrey Dahmer, by virtue of his seniority ensured that Capshaw had no formal assignment, no mail, and no pay. Having completely isolated the young medic, Dahmer regularly sexually assaulted, raped, and tortured him." [5]Geo8rge (talk) 02:04, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Contradictions

In the article, it says he moved in with his grandmother in 1982 and lived there for six years (1982 + 6 = 1988.. okay then). then it says his grandmother asked him to move out in summer 1988, where he then moved into his infamous apartment. Then in the murders section it says he finally moved out of his grandmother's house in may 1990.... the date in this section doesn't match the other section. whats up with that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.92.100.233 (talk) 19:50, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Table of "Victims"

"Victims" implies that these were his victims, but they were only his "Murder Victims". There are others that he sexually molested, per other sections in this article. By using the term "Victim" to mean "Murder Victim" minimizes the horrors he did to his victims that he did not kill. 66.105.72.67 (talk) 22:40, 10 January 2011 (UTC) Jack S.

Ok, so why not just change it to "murder victims?" Sottolacqua (talk) 23:35, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect labeling of Gay Rights

It says he was "active in Milwaukee-area gay rights and BDSM communities," however the link does not provide sufficient evidence to back up this point, it merely says he was on a BDSM float at a gay parade. To say that he was active in a community requires more than one encounter, but rather a history of involvement. If one can provide evidence for that then the article is fine, but without that it is incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxsw (talk • contribs) 06:10, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. I removed the line. Sottolacqua (talk) 12:43, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Media portrayals-one more reference

There should be one more reference in the "media portrayals" section. American metal band Slayer recorded a song called "213" on their "Divine Intervention" album about him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.192.53.149 (talk) 00:15, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Jeffrey's Religion

The link sourced for the quotation wherein he stated that he did not believe in God does not have the quotation. Furthermore, the link itself says that the idea Jeffrey said that he "found god" was dubious. All sources seem to imply that he was a creationist and a Christian and not an atheist at any point in his life. It would be great if this could be clarified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.130.140.73 (talk) 02:45, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Cannibal - Ke$ha

Her song should be listed the Media Portrayals section since she uses him in her song. --216.160.57.20 (talk) 09:02, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

We don't list every time somebody says "Dahmer" in a song lyric or novel. We only mention stories, songs, etc. that are clearly about Dahmer. --Orange Mike | Talk 12:20, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Leighmeinhart, 5 June 2011

Jeffrey was killed with a dumb bell, not a broom stick. Leighmeinhart (talk)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. According to the source, the text is correct. - Happysailor ^(Talk) 18:25, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Weapon used to kill Dahmer

On Christopher Scarver's page it says the murder weapon was a bar from a weights machine but on this page it says it was a broomstick handle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.7.203 (talk) 01:29, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

That's been corrected on the Scarver article. --Orange Mike | Talk 02:06, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 74.79.245.193, 13 July 2011

I would like to request adding the fact that the song "Nectrotizing" by the American deathcore band, Whitechapel, contains excerpts from a Stone Phillips interview with Jeffrey Dahmer in the "Media portrayals" section. The song contains the quote "The only motive that there ever was, was to completly control a person, a person that I found physically attractive and keep them with me as long as possible. Even if it meant just keeping a part of them." by Jeffrey Dahmer. It can be found on the Whitechapel album, The Somatic Defilement, wikipedia page: http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/The_Somatic_Defilement

74.79.245.193 (talk) 19:51, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

 Not done wikipedia is not a source. Besides that on the article you have linked to it uses youtube as a source which is unreliable. Monkeymanman (talk) 21:05, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Tracy Edwards/Andrews

Request: Near the end of the article, a paragraph begins: "In July 2011, the surviving victim, Tracy Andrews, was charged with..." The actual name of the surviving victim is Tracy Edwards, not Tracy Andrews. This is confirmed elsewhere in the article, as well as the source cited for the paragraph. Please correct the name of the surviving victim. 90.178.44.94 (talk) 22:01, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Done. Thank you. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 23:14, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually, since it's completely irrelevant to Dahmer, the subject of this article, I've removed that paragraph entirely. Thanks anyway, Doc. --Orange Mike | Talk 12:44, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

You are very welcome. Good call. Take care Orange Mike. Dr.K. ^{λogosπraxis} 13:06, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Punctuation errors and clarity please

1) Article states, "When he was eight years old, he moved with his family to Bath, Ohio ." 2 problems with this sentence:

The 1st is that just prior to this sentence the author is also speaking about Jeffrey's brother. Would be clearer if the sentence simply stated "the family" moved.

2nd problem is that there are 2 spaces before the period. There should be none.

2). I also noticed that there is a period INSIDE of a parenthesis (using this as an example.) - periods are always OUTSIDE (using this as an example). 68.28.147.117 (talk) 01:47, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Punctuation please

There may be others, but this is the first I've come across so please review the rest of the article for other like errors. Periods belong INSIDE the quotation marks, so this line needs to be changed - "tired of the cold". - to "tired of the cold."

Another Movie if you would like to add it

Just in case you would like to add it - There is another movie called, "Raising Jeffrey Dahmer." I just saw it on NetFlix. It depicts his family thinking back on his childhood, looking for signs that this would happen — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.28.147.120 (talk) 02:18, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 99.236.41.137, 27 September 2011

English article, yet the french "née" is written where "born" should be written in the second paragraph.

99.236.41.137 (talk) 04:01, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

In English that is still common practice to use née for maiden names. --Jnorton7558 (talk) 13:47, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

LGBT?

I doubt he ever identified as gay/bisexual. Man who has sex with men does not equal gay/bi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.167.83.171 (talk) 07:59, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

???? He picked up his victims in gay bars; there's never been any assertion of which I'm aware that he denied what he was. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:52, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, but he never called himself that, did he? Again, MSM/=/gay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.167.83.171 (talk) 17:30, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Your definition seems to be rather idiosyncratic. A man who frequents gay bars and has sex exclusively with men; do you call him straight? --Orange Mike | Talk 13:22, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, we should at least cite our sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.167.83.171 (talk) 13:53, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

13 yr olds name displayed?

In the "Early Life" section, paragraph 4, it reads, "[Dahmer] was arrested for drugging and sexually fondling a 13-year-old boy in Milwaukee named Somsack Sinthasomphone." I'm wondering if the 13 yr old's name should be displayed? Isn't there a privacy issue because of the victims age? I could be wrong but thought it should be brought up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.89.209.92 (talk) 05:29, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Early childhood 'normal'!?!

I would certainly like to dispute the, rather flippant, claim that he had a 'normal' childhood.

http://www.amazon.com/Fathers-Story-Lionel-Dahmer/dp/068812156X

Jeffrey was born in Milwaukee in 1960 after his mother had endured a very difficult pregnancy (after giving birth to another son, she would spend time in a mental institution) . His father sees many similarities between himself and his son: both are emotionally distant, fear abandonment, like to control people and feel inadequate. The author, a chemist, writes that he was so involved with his work that he never noticed that Jeffrey, even in high school, was an alcoholic.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0406/17/lkl.00.html

KING: Was he -- did he love his mother, Lionel?

LIONEL DAHMER: Yes, he did. But he, you know, had a very rough time with her physical and mental problems.

Whilst the above may well claim to be within the 'normalised' range of traditional parenting values of that era, it is now well understood that the toxic stress of emotionally unhealthy childhood environments actually alters gene expression in the developing brain of the child, resulting in alterations in the neurology and severely raising the risks of dysfunction and mentall illness in the adult. http://developingchild.harvard.edu/index.php/resources/reports_and_working_papers/working_papers/wp10/

So, with this in mind, I would request that the claim towards Jeffrey Dahmer's childhood as being 'normal' be changed to a description that reflects the dysfunctional and psychologically unhealthy environment he was actually being raised in. Mentally ill adults do not make for nurturing parents and both of Jeffery's clearly had serious underlying psychological issues.

--87.228.212.141 (talk) 14:21, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Concur; changed. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:00, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Large blue barrel

The large blue barrel is mentioned only once, and in passing, in the Arrest section of the article. Shouldn't the article explain the purpose of the large blue barrel (I know its purpose)?Hoops gza (talk) 04:42, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 1 June 2012

The section about his victim Konerak is incomplete and misleading. I would rewrite as:

In the early morning hours of May 27, 1991, 14-year-old Konerak Sinthasomphone (the younger brother of the boy whom Dahmer had molested in 1988) was discovered on the street, wandering naked, heavily under the influence of drugs and bleeding from his rectum. Two young women from the neighborhood found the dazed boy and called 911. Dahmer chased his victim down and tried to take him away, but the women stopped him.[30] Dahmer told John Balcerzak and Joseph Gabrish, police officers dispatched to the scene, that Sinthasomphone was his 19-year-old boyfriend, and that they had an argument while drinking. Against the protests of the two women who had called 911, who recognized him from the neighborhood and insisted that he was a child and couldn't speak English, the officers turned him over to Dahmer. They later reported smelling a strange scent while inside Dahmer's apartment, but did not investigate it. The smell was the body of Tony Hughes, Dahmer's previous victim, decomposing in the bedroom. The officers did not make any attempt to verify Sinthasomphone's age, identity or locate someone who could communicate with him and failed to run a background check that would have revealed Dahmer was a convicted child molester still under probation.[31] Later that night, Dahmer killed and dismembered Sinthasomphone, keeping his skull as a souvenir. Kmclaugh128 (talk) 14:16, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

 DoneThat's done for ya. Could I request that next time you make the request with properly formatted wiki code? Cheers, Egg Centric 14:36, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

House sale add?

Somebody wrote that the house of Dahmer was put up for sale on the 22nd of August 2012. Because this is clearly an advertisment, this information should be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.202.149 (talk) 00:29, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Broom handle or dumbbell?

This article says he was killed with a broom handle. Killer's wiki entry says it was a barbell. Please resolve. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.130.9.98 (talk) 06:40, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Somebody re-added the mythical barbell to the Scarver article; that has been corrected. --Orange Mike | Talk 14:26, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Murder Weapon used to kill Jeffrey Dahmer and Jesse Anderson; metal bar or broomstick handle?

There seems to be some confusion concerning the murder weapon that Christopher Scarver used to bludgeon Jeffrey Dahmer and Jesse Anderson to death. Some Internet sources report that Scarver used a broomstick handle; other articles identify a metal bar as the murder weapon.

There are many errors and omissions in Internet articles, because the articles are filled with hearsay, speculation, conjecture, and information from a grapevine that can be a mile long.

If you want to find out exactly how Christopher Scarver killed the two inmates, you have to go directly to Scarver himself. He will tell you whether a broomstick handle or a metal bar was used in the fatal attacks. This confusion is a perfect example of why witnesses must be used in a court of law. Hearsay is thrown out for good reason.

We can use some logic in this matter. A wooden or plastic broomstick handle weighs no more than a couple of pounds and does not have any sharp edges. It would be almost impossible to kill somebody with a broomstick handle. A metal bar, on the other hand, is very heavy and could easily be used to crack a skull open. This is the reason why I believe that Scarver used a metal bar that he removed from the exercise equipment in the weight room. He could have used the broomstick to mop up the blood after the attacks.

Anthony22 (talk) 13:54, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Media Portrayal

Dahmer's name is mentioned in the 1993 movie Demolition Man. Toward the end of the movie, Simon Phoenix, played by Wesley Snipes, is looking at the names of prisoners in the cryoprison, and as he looks at the list, he says, "Jeffrey Dahmer? I love that guy!" ThunderFist78 (talk) 06:02, 7 January 2013 (UTC)ThunderFist78

It is long-standing consensus that trivial mentions such as that have no place in this article. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:30, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Why the Nilsen reference?

The "Aftermath" section ends with, "Martens and Palermo (2005) have suggested that Nilsen suffered from antisocial personality disorder and have theorized that loneliness plays a significant role in the development and continuation of violent, antisocial attitudes and behavior."

This is the only mention of Nilsen in the article. Who is he? Why is he mentioned? Should that say Dahmer instead? If not, why is it here? The article is about Dahmer, not Nilsen. Evidently they're associated somehow, but that association isn't made in the article. 184.60.122.110 (talk) 18:31, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Apologies. That was my copy and past error (now corrected by another ediotor). Dahmer and Dennis Nilsen are both discussed in the paper cited. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:46, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 15 January 2013

In media portrayal I need to add that Slayer wrote a song abut him called 213 Epicness10101010101 (talk) 03:21, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Do you have any source for that? Martinevans123 (talk) 08:52, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. More than 24 hours have elapsed since original request to provide sources. If the OP can provide a source please reopen this request. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 22:20, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, 14 hours, anyway. It's already included in this article: Divine Intervention (album), so I guess could be added. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:50, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

His glasses

Someone should mention in the article the big framed glasses he wore most likely inspired the stereotype in media of "serial killer glasses" or "rapist glasses". There have been several creepy characters I've seen on TV or in film who wear big nerdy looking glasses like who are supposedly pedophiles or at least rapists. And do the glasses now fit into any form of police profiling? Someone could mention this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.154.78 (talk) 21:11, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Do you have a reliable source? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:36, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

At the time that picture was taken, those were pretty much the style. --Orange Mike | Talk 03:17, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Diagnosis

Jeffrey Dahmer didn't have "antisocial personality disorder". Dr. Palermo claimed that he might have had it. But the problem is that Dr. Palermo sat with Dahmer for only an hour and he was an "expert" for the prosecution. Dr. Carl Whalstrom spent a lot of time with Dahmer and actually diagnosed him with borderline personality disorder, substance abuse, and necrophilia. So this very important information needs to be added and the "antisocial personality disorder" needs to be taken out of the article because it simply not factual. Another psychiatrist who spent a lot of time with Dahmer, Dr. Park Dietz, also diagnosed him with borderline personality disorder. The misinformation regarding his mental health diagnosis in this article need to be addressed. The category called "people with borderline personality disorder" should also be added at the bottom.

Both "diagnoses" (or even all three) could be used with appropriate explanation of their context. Source are needed for anything added. The opinions of Park Dietz are certainly worth a mention. You can sign your comments by using using four tildes or, better still, why not create an account from which you can add this type of material? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:43, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 25 March 2013

Christopher Scarver-the man that killed Dahmer while in prison. Ben jammins (talk) 18:40, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Not done: This is a statement with no specific request to edit the article. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 20:40, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 12 April 2013

It should be included that MPD Detectives Patrick F. Kennedy and Dennis Murphy were called by initial officers who arrived at the scene. They were the ones who searched the apartment and arrested Dahmer after some physical resistance. The Milwaukee Sentinel or Milwaukee Journal are reliable sources and more can be found online. 99.20.248.116 (talk) 03:04, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Not done: Per WP:NPF and WP:BLPNAME individuals who are not relatively well-known should not have their names included on articles if it is possible to do so without losing context. In this case, the inclusion of these names does not contribute greatly to the article on Dahmer. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 15:17, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

anti-social personality ??

Sounds more like alcohol induced intermittent dementia... Doesn't anyone notice that many of these types of killers drink to extreme excess? Ted Bundy was another one who did.

98.118.62.140 (talk) 22:47, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Missing Media Portrayal - South Park

I am not really a contributor and probably won't return (so please feel free to take or leave this comment), but this is missing his portrayal in the South Park episode "Hell on Earth" (http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Hell_on_Earth_2006). The episode is about Satan's big birthday party, and one of Satan's minions tasks Dahmer along with 2 other serial killers (Ted Bundy and William Gacy) to deal with getting the cake (which leads to lots of shenanigans). It's definitely a more joking representation, in which animated Dahmer kills and tries to have sex with several animated characters, but it is certainly more than just a trivial mention. Please use as you see best fit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.132.193 (talk) 19:04, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Well spotted. Many thanks. (But I hope you will.) Martinevans123 (talk) 19:12, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

John Balcerzak

Is there a way to include the John Balcerzak article in here somehow? A brief link or a related articles section? When I read about the 14 year old victim sent back to Dahmer by police I had to search all over the place to find out if anything was ever done about those police. I think it would be helpful to include but I'm not exactly sure how to do so. Celynn (talk) 21:28, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Mention of him, along with the link to his Wikipedia article, is already included in this article; the text is in the Murders section. I made sure to include it after a complaint was made about mention of him being removed from this article; see Talk:Jeffrey Dahmer/Archive 2#Update on John Balcerzak. Flyer22 (talk) 21:34, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Media Portrayal

I think that these could be added:

• Band Soulfly has a song called "Jeffrey Dahmer" in their 2010 released album Omen. http://www.soulfly.com/board_posts/omen

• Thrash metal band Slayer has a song called "213" in their 1994 released album Divine Intervention. Song is about Dahmer. This is also mentioned in Slayer, Divine Intervention (album) and Tom Araya wikipedia entries. http://web.archive.org/web/20061217140905/http://www.planbmag.com/content/view/440/42/ (in the link song is misspelled as 312).

Sorry for my bad english and this is the first time I do something else than read some article in wikipedia so saying sorry in advance if I did something foolish.

Huoruli (talk) 01:35, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

ANOTHER EDIT:

another that could be added is:

In the book "Miss Peregrine's Home for Peculiar Children" Jeffrey Dahmer was referenced as a wight, a creature which takes the form of a human to help hollows find and eat what are known as 'peculiars'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.121.222 (talk) 16:14, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Half-caste?

Under 'subsequent murders' - "The victim was a 24-year-old half-caste aspiring model named Anthony Sears"

Not sure the term 'half-caste' should be used here given its archaism and offensiveness? I would suggest a revision to 'mixed race'. Malchickles (talk) 01:46, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

It is not meant as an offensive term even though should discussion be opened I'd support one kind or another of substitution of wording. Whatever way anyone looks at the chronology of Dahmer's crimes, the race of the victim comes into consideration. Those words are not intended in any offensive way and even looking at that paragraph you can see Dahmer harked to his attractiveness regardless of his race.

Dahmer himself always claimed the fact that the later murder victims of his were largely of black origin was simply because they tended to have hairless torsos. I understand the possible misinterpretation of the wording on some people's part.--Kieronoldham (talk) 01:59, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

That word is not only grossly archaic, it is bizarrely out of place in an article about an event in Milwaukee, where that term has never been in use. --Orange Mike | Talk 02:26, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, the term was in Brian Masters' book (p.135) which I used as a reference to populate that section.--Kieronoldham 15:15, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

A play

Hi- I don't know if it'll be useful, but I've just been sent a theatrical poster about a recent play. J Milburn (talk) 20:10, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

Arrest part

You need to explain more. Edwards didn't just walk out and they follwed him. There were two other women involved and they were the ones who called the police the next day and told them to go check it out because they saw that Edwards was missing before. Then the police checked it out, that day he was busted cause a officer found pictures, and the other officer looked in the fridge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kodie E (talk • contribs) 02:15, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

You are mixing two incidents together here. The way the arrest is described in the article is absolutely correct (according to the witness account that Edwards gave during the trial). No other people but Edwards and the police officers were involved. No one called the police, Edwards simply flagged down a police car. Dahmer was also arrested in the same night. The incident you are referring to was connected to Konerak Sinthasomphone the Laotian boy who ran out onto the street to escape Dahmer only to be escorted back to the apartment by the police (who were called by two women), where he was killed moments later. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FerociousFranky (talk • contribs) 08:28, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Missing important points

Dahmer's cannibalism is barely mentioned in the article. Also, where is the mention of the box (and its contents) that Jeffrey's father found (as discussed in the Stone Phillips interview with Dahmer)?Hoops gza (talk) 20:31, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

The cannibalism really was only a tiny aspect of Dahmer's crimes which got blown way out of proportion by the media. In fact he only ate meat of 4 of his victims and only a few parts. He by no means ate entire human beings. In fact he mostly "cooked" his victims in order to get rid of the evidence (flush the meat slush down the drain) and retrieve the skull/skeletons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FerociousFranky (talk • contribs) 09:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Lawsuit against his family

This is in reference to a question asked on the Help Desk. This contribution has been removed since the question was asked, and the person wanted to improve the contribution. I think it belongs.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 19:07, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

People file lawsuits all the time. Unless the lawsuit was successful and upheld by the courts, I don't see any way in which this constitutes encyclopedic content. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:38, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I misread that. The person WANTED money but was not AWARDED that amount. I guess the person who asked for help won't get it.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 21:05, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I got a response on the talk page of the person who removed the text. Apparently the total of all lawsuits is in the article but the specific suits are not mentioned.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 14:48, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Correction. I looked at the wrong paragraph. When I looked for the exact text the other person said was there, it was there.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 18:57, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

"Ohio University"

Could a registered editor please update the "Substance use disorder" section? It says that Dahmer attended "Ohio University," which is incorrect. He attended "Ohio State University." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.176.179.252 (talk) 15:53, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Jeffrey Dahmer/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ritchie333 (talk · contribs) 15:54, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

I'll give this a go. I've read through the article some time back, but I think it's been greatly improved since then.

General

• Dablinks reports a link to Dahmer on the page somewhere via this report

Lead

• The article is 63K of prose. Generally above 50K we prefer to do content forks or to trim the article down, though in some cases it can be acceptable. I'm not sure we need to go into quite so much intricate detail, particularly about the deaths. In any case, for an article of that size, the lead needs to be about 4 detailed paragraphs.

• Date of birth is not referred to in the article body

• "also known as the Milwaukee Cannibal" - not mentioned in the body

Early life

• "As her son entered first grade" - wikilink / explain what "first grade" is to non US readers
• What makes trutv.com a reliable source?
• "He chose the name David for his younger brother" - don't need "for his younger brother" - we know who David is from the previous sentence
• "Lionel Dahmer achieved his degree" - "graduated" might be a better term
• A single sentence in the last paragraph on this section is split in several places by semicolons. It's probably better to split these into separate sentences.

Adolescence and High School

• "It's my medicine." - the Google Newspaper link needs more information, work / newspaper name, date, page (if available) and author (likewise)
• "although the pair never had intercourse" - I wonder if there's a better way of wording this, perhaps "although their relationship was not physical".

First murder and army service

• "Dahmer picked up an 18-year-old hitchhiker named Steven Mark Hicks" - the two citations for this need more detail.
• "The following day" - I wonder if it's worth putting in "June 19" here, as "June 18" is buried in the preceding paragraph
• "The flesh he dissolved in acid" - should read "He dissolved the flesh in acid" and this is still unsourced
• "Dahmer's father and his fiancée returned to his home where they discovered Jeffrey living alone at the house." - I'm confused by this - were they not expecting him to be?
• "before, on July 13, 1979, being deployed to Baumholder in West Germany where he served as a combat medic" - confusing grammar, the "1979" is redundant per the context in the preceding sentence. I'd go with "before being deployed to Baumholder in West Germany on July 13...."

Return to Ohio and relocation to West Allis

• "Upon his return to Ohio, Dahmer initially resided with his father and stepmother" - unless I missed it (always possible!) this is the first mention of his stepmother, do we know what her name is, or any other details
• "in early 1982, Dahmer found employment" .... "He held this job for a total of ten months before being made redundant" .... "Shortly before being made redundant, Dahmer was arrested for indecent exposure. On August 7, 1982," - the timeline of events doesn't add up. "Shortly before being made redundant" can be removed to fix this.
• The wikilink to gay bathhouse is "bathhouses". I think the full link is required - "bathhouse" on its own to me implies the sort of thing Archimedes went to when he cried "Eureka!"
• "He is also known to have stolen a male mannequin" - the sentence can probably be split into two
• "he conceived the idea of stealing the freshly-interred corpse and taking it home" - citation given needs a page number
• trutv.com cite again (see earlier)

Subsequent murders

Ambassador Hotel

• "Nine years passed before Dahmer killed again;" - I'm not sure this is required here - the previous section is talking about events in 1987 and suddenly the narrative jumps back to compare events from 1978.
• "later informed investigators that he simply "could not believe this had happened." - quote cited to trutv.com
• "all of Tuomi's remains—excluding the severed head[72]—were disposed of in the trash" .... "For a total of two weeks following Tuomi's murder, Dahmer retained the victim's head wrapped in a blanket." - these two sentences seem to contradict each other. Either he kept the head or he disposed of it. Which is correct?
• What is Soilex?

Intermediate incidents

• "the skull was boiled and initially retained before being pulverized." - can you confirm the source cited to the subsequent sentence also verifies this one too.
• "Although Dahmer replied in a manner that led his grandmother to believe he was alone, his grandmother did observe the fact Dahmer was not alone" - don't need the second "was not alone"
• "before taking to the County General Hospital" - newspaper cite needs full information such as publisher, date and page (in case the search link goes dead). This applies to several other news cites later in the article
• "Two months after his conviction and two months...." - several sentences and one quotation are cited to a single source - can you confirm this is correct
• "Dahmer lured Sears to his grandmother's home (where Dahmer was temporarily living)" - the previous paragraph says he was living in an apartment

924 North 25th Street

• "On May 14, 1990, Dahmer moved out of his grandmother's house and into Apartment 213, 924 North 25th Street" - the previous paragraph just told us this
• "Anthony Sears" - per WP:LASTNAME should just read "Sears"
• "the remainder of Smith's skeleton—excluding the skull—he dissolved" - you don't need dashes here, commas will suffice
• "Naturally, Dahmer never reported this incident to the police" - I don't think "naturally" is a good choice of word here, most people don't "naturally" kill other people. Also this sentence is unreferenced.
• "Less than three months after the murder of Smith" - end of paragraph is unreferenced. The following paragraph can probably be merged with this one as it's about the same murder
• "He then posed the nude body for various suggestive Polaroid photographs" - don't need "suggestive"
• "The severed head Dahmer repeatedly kissed and talked to" - bad grammar, should be "Dahmer repeatedly kissed and talked to the severed head"
• "the occasional sound of a chainsaw" - minor nitpick, but the source says "power saw"
• "The manager of the Oxford Apartments" - the name is mentioned in the previous sentence, "apartments" should suffice here
• The events of May 27, 1991, have some newspaper links that should use the full {{cite news}} template, as per above. The source also says the officers involved were subsequently suspended without pay, which would be worth mentioning.
• "domestic" - this quotation is misleading from the source as it takes a single word. The article gives the impression the officer said it abrasively at the scene of the incident, whereas he actually said "You have what appears to be a domestic situation" when questioned about his actions later
• "this odor emanated from the decomposing body of Hughes" - source name is misspelled, and also only says it was apparently Hughes
• "Had a background check upon Dahmer been conducted" - sentence can go in the preceding paragraph, and I'm not sure it adds much to the article - we know he was convicted and under probation from reading the article - why mention it again here?

Arrest

• The end of the first paragraph is unsourced
• The second paragraph has a citation to YouTube. Why is this a reliable source, and why is it not a copyright violation to link it?
• "Edwards repeated assertions he was Dahmer's friend" - confusing, suggest "Edwards repeatedly told Dahmer he was his friend"
• "and the pair walked to the living room when Edwards exited the bathroom" - I think just saying "and the pair moved there" will get the same information across
• "Edwards waited until he observed Dahmer to momentarily lapse" - don't need "to"
• "two Milwaukee police officers were flagged down by Tracy Edwards" - WP:LASTNAME - just "Edwards"
• What makes medicinesatmichigan.org a reliable source?
• "chief medical examiner" wikilinks to coroner. If it's a coroner, link to that.
• "He readily admitted to having murdered sixteen young men in Wisconsin since 1987," - although this can be inferred from earlier cites, an additional citation stating this should be added here

Indictment

• The end of the second paragraph is unsourced

Trial

• There seem to be an awful lot of doctors who diagnosed Dahmer as "with borderline personality disorder". I counted the same phrase five times. This wants rewording.

That he was repeatedly diagnosed with borderline personality disorder is a fact. The trial section discusses what the defense, prosecution, and independent court appointed experts thought of Mr. Dahmer's mental state. All experts diagnosed him with BPD, including one of the defense experts. How would you reword it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by DendroNaja (talk • contribs) 16:51, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

I'd probably move it to a single sentence at the end near the paragraph starting "The trial lasted two weeks" - something like "In conclusion, Wahlstrom, Resnick, Fodel ..... diagnosed Dahmer with borderline personality disorder". The fact that multiple doctors diagnosed BPD is important to mention, but not necessarily by saying it multiple times. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:55, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

OK, I'm going to get Kieronoldham involved in this because it was he and I that really expanded the article and so I'm going to ask him to help me meet your demands, if that is okay with you. --DendroNaja (talk) 17:03, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Also, if I move it all near the end in a single sentence, what would the body of the trial section consist of? The whole point of the trial was to determine his sanity and his mental diagnosis. --DendroNaja (talk) 17:07, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure to be honest. I'll have a proper read through the article first, then I might have some better suggestions! Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:09, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

I will wait for you to read the entire article before any changes are being made. Kieronoldham is working on the references and cites, but I am going to be focusing on the 'trial' and 'pathology' sections. But like I mentioned, I will wait for you to do a thorough read of the article and possibly some investigative work on the cites and references before major changes are made. The article is very detailed, well-written, well referenced and very accurate. --DendroNaja (talk) 17:27, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Imprisonment and death

• First two paragraphs can be merged together. End of second paragraph is unsourced.
• The use of people.com as a source has been considered controversial (see recent events at Talk:Brad Pitt). Consider finding an alternative source if one exists. The source appears to be formatted in different ways, it should be consistent.
• End of fourth paragraph is unsourced
• "He had been severely bludgeoned about the head with a 20-inch (51 cm) metal bar" - the source here doesn't appear to be formatted correctly
• "Their assailant, 25-year-old Christopher Scarver" ... everything through to the end of the paragraph is unsourced
• "In September 1995, Dahmer's body was cremated" - why did it take so long?

Pathology

• A lot of this section is repetition - for instance the relationship with his parents, his sexuality, and his alcohol abuse. I think this can be merged with the earlier section

I don't see how it is repetition. It states his mental health diagnoses and goes on to explain the issues which impacted his life the most. The borderline personality disorder was the most significant, followed by his substance abuse and then his paraphilias. These are very important to to the article. It is this section which explains his motives, thoughts of himself, others and the world in general. It gives the readers a clear picture of Dahmer's mind. I think it is well written and well referenced.--DendroNaja (talk) 03:29, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't! The second paragraph "Borderline personality disorder" is completely unsourced, and further sentences later on are also lacking inline citations. Some of this section is not repeated in the main narrative earlier in the article, but a significant amount is. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:26, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Aftermath

• The list should be represented as prose. Some ends of paragraphs are unsourced.

Media

• The list could be better represented as prose.

Referencing

• I see a number of claims at the end of paragraphs that are not cited to a reliable source. Normally we only require inline cites for contentious material, but I think it's completely fair to say that in Dahmer's case, that's more or less everything. In particular, there is a paragraph (which includes quotations) relating to the murder of Konerak Sinthasomphone which is completely unreferenced. I'm afraid for an article of this nature, I am going to have to insist on reliable inline cites for absolutely everything (except the lead) or I will have to fail the review. Sorry. I'll wait until this is done before proceeding. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:54, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Can you point out exactly which paragraph relating to the murder of Sinthasomphone you are referring to? The details of the deaths all come from a very reliable source: Brian Masters "The Shrine of Jeffrey Dahmer". --DendroNaja (talk) 16:43, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

It's the one that starts "Prior to his falling unconscious, Sinthasomphone..." in the section "924 North 25th Street". Just to clarify, I'm not claiming any source is unreliable (I think it's highly likely any suspicious sources would have been weeded out anyway), just that everything needs proper cites. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:47, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Okay, the article is looking more referenced - there are still some outstanding places where cites are required, but I'll carry on reviewing now and come back to those. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:08, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Summary

I'm afraid to say I think there are too many problems with the article as present to fix in a short frame of time. In particular, the remaining uncited text and possible original research that misrepresents the sources' account of Sinthasomphone and the police's response are major concerns. I think an independent editor with access to the references cited should check the article thoroughly to make sure it is factually accurate and verifiable. Sorry. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:33, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Needs an axe taken to it

...if you'll pardon the distasteful (oops, sorry again) image. The extent of the overdetail -- especially about the murders -- is almost grotesque. The countless short paragraphs make the text almost unreadable. Sorry to say the version from earlier this year, before the big expansion, was much more readable, and more useful for a reader wanting to learn about Dahmer (the current version is most suited to readers who, for some reason, want to review the minute details of what happened to each organ of each victim). EEng (talk) 08:38, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

ASPD

Martens & Palermo (2008) have this:

p.298: "Keywords: loneliness; antisocial personality disorder; intervention; prevention; case reports"

p.304: "In the etiology of the antisocial homicidal behavior of Jeffrey Dahmer and Dennis Nilsen, loneliness obviously played a crucial role (see antisocial personality disorder (ASPD); American Psychiatric Association, 2000)."

p.305: "There are important correlates of loneliness and associated ASPD, which should draw our attention. The case reports of Nilsen and Dahmer and other patients with ASPD illustrate the importance of preventing loneliness in young persons who are at risk of developing antisocial behavior."

Is this enough to conclude that the authors see both Dahmer and Nilsen as suffering from APSD? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:45, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't know about Nilsen but Dahmer was never diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder. Dahmer was subjected to hundreds of psychiatric evaluations and just simply did not meet the criteria for ASPD. Virtually every psychiatrist and psychologist he sat with came to the same conclusion: borderline personality disorder. He was not even a psychopath. He scored a 23 on the Hare Psychopathy checklist. 23 is only slightly above average and way below being a psychopath. Borderline personalities are generally considered to be "secondary psychopaths" - which means that they are capable of showing and feeling true remorse. Although empathy is severely limited among borderlines, they aren't totally devoid of it unlike antisocials or narcissists.

As far as loneliness and isolation go, BPD is far associated with loneliness. They have a paralyzing fear of abandonment, isolation and rejection. Palermo was off back during the trial and he's still harping about the same thing today. I just wonder though why did Palermo himself diagnose Dahmer with BPD? --DendroNaja (talk) 02:14, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Maybe his score on the Hare Psychopathy Checklist should be included? Martinevans123 (talk) 07:29, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Hello. This is my first time posting a comment on a Wikipedia article so please accept my apologies if I have not followed the correct convention. Re: ASPD discussion and DendroNaja (talk) 02:14, 28 August DendroNaja says, “He was not even a psychopath. He scored a 23 on the Hare Psychopathy checklist. 23 is only slightly above average and way below being a psychopath.”

Sorry but 23 is NOT slightly above average and NOT way below being a psychopath. Yes 30 is the PCL-R cutoff in use in North America, but that cutoff number is somewhat arbitrary. For instance 25 is used as the cutoff point in the UK.

Look here: “The PCL-R cut-off for a label of psychopathy is 25 in the United Kingdom, instead of 30 as it is in the United States.” http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Psychopathy

Normal non-personality disordered individuals typically score in the single digits on the PCL-R. Hare himself mentions that he comes in at 5. 23 is within what has been referred to as the subclinical range and is clearly significant.

Re: Martinevans123 (talk) 07:29, 28 August 2013 "Maybe his score on the Hare Psychopathy Checklist should be included?"

Martinevans123 makes a good point.

Using the word "slightly" was obviously inaccurate, but his score of 22 (23 was a typo) still means he isn't a "psychopath", not in North America or in the UK. What is a psychopath, anyway? He wasn't a sociopath (ASPD) nor was he a narcissist (NPD). Dahmer had borderline personality disorder. Some researchers believe that people with antisocial, narcissistic, and borderline personality disorders are all different breeds of psychopaths. There is a primary-secondary distinction (NPD/ASPD=primary psychopaths, BPD=secondary psychopaths), there is a subtype distinction (sadistic, borderline, narcissistic and antisocial), etc. --DendroNaja (talk) 19:54, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Dahmer's ancestry

I think that including a sentence on Dahmer's ancestry would improve the article. I don't have a reliable source to include it, but I'm fairly certain that he was of German descent.Hoops gza (talk) 20:03, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

His father was of German ancestry; his mother of Welsh ancestry. Page 24 of The Shrine of Jeffrey Dahmer states this.--Kieronoldham (talk) 20:43, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much, I have added it into the article.Hoops gza (talk) 23:07, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 December 2013

Under the section headed 'Imprisonment and death', please consider adding the following: According to fellow inmate, 'Robert', Dahmer was already dead before leaving the prison. He claims the nurse waited 40 minutes before any outside help arrived. In addition, 'Robert' suspects it was an inside job citing changes in prison procedure which caused Dahmer's cleaning duty to be unsupervised. He goes on to add that the assailant, Scarver, received an unexpected $100 payment appear in his prison account shortly after the incident. Notoautoc (talk) 17:53, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

References

I'm not sure that the source you have provided meets the requirements for WP:RS. Do you have any more reliable one? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:26, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Not done: totally agree, this is not a Reliable source as Wikipedia defines one. Arjayay (talk) 20:16, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

why the passive voice?

I would think that, if the facts (not just what happened to the victims, but that it was Dahmer who did it) have been established in court, one would want to write that "Dahmer dismembered the corpse" rather than "the corpse was dismembered" throughout the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.243.173.24 (talk) 05:53, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 April 2014

Introduction: Dahmer was a Homosexual American Serial Killer 68.111.170.146 (talk) 06:24, 15 April 2014 (UTC)  Not done this does not seem to be an improvement on the existing introduction - Arjayay (talk) 08:16, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Edit request May 14, 2014

I can't edit the article because I'm a new user and I would like it to be added on the "Aftermath" section that Catherine Dahmer, his grandmother with whom he lived for six years and in whose house were committed two or three murders died Dec. 25, 1992. Thank you. Source --JJHk2000 (talk) 20:54, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Why? It's not really relevant to an encyclopedia article; although if you were writing a book-length bio of the guy it might merit a sentence, or even a paragraph. --Orange Mike | Talk 03:03, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Edit request June 27, 2014

Beneath the heading 'Subsequent Murders', in referring to Dahmer's apartment on N25th, writers have mistakenly labeled his apartment as '219', rather than '213'. Suggest fixing error for continuity.

Thank you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.147.72.148 (talk • contribs)

 Done. Thanks for spotting that. If it was myself who made that error, I may have confused the apartment number with the name of one of the gay bars he frequented.--Kieronoldham (talk) 01:04, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Edit request July 31, 2014

Move from category "Violence against men" to appropriate location subcategory "Violence against men in North America" --80.193.191.143 (talk) 11:13, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

 Done. Thanks. Am unfamilar with all the Category nesting here, but hope this is now correct. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:24, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! That is indeed correct, the article is now in the subcategory --80.193.191.143 (talk) 11:28, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Mugshot Picture

The same picture has been used in this article for at least several years now (a mugshot taken in 1982). I don't know how to change a picture on WP but can someone who knows how insert a new picture for this article? A suggestion would be this photograph from Dahmer's 1991 arrest: http://murderpedia.org/male.D/images/dahmer-jeffrey/jeffrey-dahmer-109.jpg Anviers (talk) 23:59, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

Asperger Syndrome

Since Dahmer was evaluated before Asperger Syndrome was recognized in the DSM, he was not diagnosed with the disorder. However, many psychologists (most notably J. Arturo Silva) believe that Dahmer suffered from Aspergers. This has been discussed in many journals, books, and papers; because this is so widespread, I think it is worth mentioning in the Pathology section.71.142.78.87 (talk) 19:35, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Edit request January 06, 2015

Since Dahmer was evaluated before Asperger Syndrome was recognized in the DSM, he was not diagnosed with the disorder. However, many psychologists (most notably J. Arturo Silva) believe that Dahmer suffered from Aspergers. This has been discussed in many journals, books, and papers with Dahmer often being referenced in studies on the connection between autism and violence; because this is so widespread, I think it is worth mentioning in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:304:78E4:D099:8545:5E75:C764:EAAE (talk) 19:30, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Church of Christ

This edit removed the Category:American members of the Churches of Christ, with the edit summary "This category is also inadmissible. He couldn't have "attend" the Church. Just attending services in prison given by Ratcliff, does not mean he was "member" of that congregation, unless there's a proof." But reading this source I'm not so sure it's "inadmissible". What kind of additional "proof" would be required? How can any permanent prison inmate "attend" a normal church? Is that all that "membership" of a church means? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:13, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

muriatic acid

A quick note, for ease of comprehension, the first time muriatic acid is referred to, it should be made clear that it is hydrochloric acid: a name most people are more familiar with — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.179.46.170 (talk) 08:41, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

There are quite a few instances of "acid" in the article, of which the one for "muriatic acid" is not the first. Presumably they are all "hydrochloric acid"? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:09, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 July 2015

Please change Borderline Personality Disorder to Anti-Social Personality Disorder. http://nicolesmediaproject.blogspot.com/2009/04/jeffrey-dahmer-antisocial-personality.html http://jeffreydahmer-serialkiller.weebly.com/psychological-analysis.html http://alfredadler.edu/sites/default/files/Cook%20MP%202011.pdf

EmIlYb1111 (talk) 03:42, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Not done: Neither the Blogspot nor the Weebly sources you provided would be considered reliable sources. The last source, although it primarily discusses antisocial personality disorder, it never explicitly verifies that Dahmer had that disorder. Finally, the article's current claim that Dahmer was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder is verified by 4 inline citations: 3 published books and 1 scholarly paper. Mz7 (talk) 07:16, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Mental disorders material

With this edit, Sdc3000 (talk · contribs) removed and changed material, stating "corrected some inaccuracies." And with this edit, Sdc3000 removed a lot of material, stating, "I deleted this section, since it is full of inaccuracies, is poorly sourced, and much of it seems to be the editor's opinion. Plus, the most important information here can be found elsewhere in the article." With both edits, he showed a particular interest in the borderline personality disorder material. With this edit, I reverted Sdc3000, stating, "You can't just change the material without adding new sources for it; see WP:Verifiability." Sdc3000 returned and removed material from the lead, and altered some material lower, replying, "I added new sources when necessary. Part of the problem is that the previous version either contained information that was not in the source cited, neglected important information from the source cited, or didn't cite a source at all." And as seen with this edit (followup edit here), I re-added material to the lead, commenting, "That he was diagnosed with those disorders, should be in the lead, given the level of detail that is given to it lower in the article; see WP:Lead. Right now, the lead makes it seems like people generally believe he was sane."

Sdc3000, will you specify here what your issues with the mental disorder content are? For example, the borderline personality disorder addition? You removed "borderline personality disorder" from the lead twice and changed "Dr. Carl Wahlstrom, diagnosed Dahmer with borderline personality disorder." to "Dr. Carl Wahlstrom, diagnosed Dahmer with borderline personality disorder, schizotypal personality disorder, necrophilia, alcohol dependence, and a psychotic disorder." without directly changing the sources for that sentence. Why remove it from the lead? And where are the WP:Reliable sources showing that Wahlstrom diagnosed Dahmer with all of that? As noted on my talk page, DendroNaja is the editor who added most of the content you removed. Since DendroNaja has been in trouble for adding content about people supposedly suffering from borderline personality disorder (see this link and this link, or more specifically this archived discussion about Angelina Jolie), I wouldn't be surprised if he added inaccurate content to this article about Dahmer and borderline personality disorder, or something else. DendroNaja is also indefinitely WP:Blocked. Flyer22 (talk) 01:12, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

I would welcome these concise explanations, too. Despite user DendroNaja's contributions being called into question, the fact remains that they had remained unchallenged for over two years, and this article ranks (last time I checked), #563 in popularity upon Wikipedia, so I do suspect that another editor would have challenged them, at least in part, in this time frame.

As stated elsewhere, I can find in the literature I possess justification for some reverts/adjustments to how the psychological, paraphilia, and (currently completely removed section-wise) pathology information should stand, prior to user Sdc3000's edits, but I do not possess literature to the depth required which can 100% justify either DendroNaja's or Sdc3000's version. I'd welcome, as previously stated by Flyer22, verifiable (preferably online) sources which can justify Sdc3000's edits, ideally from the user him/herself. Otherwise, personally, I support a total revert if they are not forthcoming.--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:16, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

There is a lot to address here, so I'll try to get to all of it. Yes, the majority of edits were regarding the alleged borderline personality disorder diagnoses, as most of the inaccurate information pertains to that. You confirmed something here that I suspected, that the editor who wrote the parts about Dahmer being diagnosed with BPD seems to have a history of making false claims about such things.

I changed the header because the previous version implied that the psychiatrists unanimously agreed that Dahmer had BPD (which another editor was trying to falsely suggest), when in actuality Carl Wahlstrom was the only one who diagnosed Dahmer with that disorder. I changed the part about Wahlstrom's diagnosis because the previous version only stated that he diagnosed Dahmer with BPD, implying that was the only disorder with which Dahmer was diagnosed. In actuality, he also diagnosed Dahmer with the four other disorders that I added. I didn't change the source because the information I added can be found in that source; the previous editor simply failed to mention it. It's an online article, so you can check it and verify that the information I added is indeed correct.

Regarding the popularity of the article, that doesn't necessarily reflect its accuracy. It just means that this article is of interest to a lot of people. I don't know why it took so long for somebody to spot the inaccuracies, but the sources I added (all of which are available online) should be sufficient to confirm that my edits should stand. Excerpts from the books can be found here: https://books.google.com/books?id=O4rPSaaAw20C&pg=PA151&lpg=PA151&dq=george+palermo+jeffrey+dahmer+personality+disorder&source=bl&ots=TIJMeQGiPL&sig=H-Cjd2WwVxWnhzqtpmmjcXrdOVU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB0Q6AEwADgKahUKEwjG3fKD1u3HAhUMK4gKHdnADOM#v=onepage&q=george%20palermo%20jeffrey%20dahmer%20personality%20disorder&f=false and here: https://books.google.com/books?id=mQ_UAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT208&lpg=PT208&dq=park+dietz+jeffrey+dahmer+schizotypal&source=bl&ots=ifpM3EQZNh&sig=2pgvUZITfKsPiMBdoXe4NchOBg0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDoQ6AEwBGoVChMInOyYtNTtxwIVkJiICh3mKQzv#v=onepage&q=park%20dietz%20jeffrey%20dahmer%20schizotypal&f=false

I also removed a number of statements that were not cited. While you may not agree with some specific aspects of my changes (such as the header), the article certainly shouldn't be reverted to its prior incarnation, which was full of false information. Sdc3000 (talk) 17:42, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, there was never a broad consensus as to the diagnoses of Dahmer as you rightly mentioned, and these differing conclusions offered in testimony by those testifying for opposing counsels at the trial already existed in the body text, with references. I neither own nor have read the sources previously used as justification for the undue weight as to BPD being predominant; therefore, such stark edits raised my concern.

The article did contain much information regarding the differing diagnoses as I say, while, as you rightly mentioned, implying in the lead that all the psychiatrists unanimously agreed that Dahmer had borderline personality disorder. I think you've done a good job in further morphing these differing opinions of those who analyzed Dahmer with verifiable references. Again, I just have not read the sources used as justification for the depth of the previous edits. Perhaps you or I should.--Kieronoldham (talk) 21:10, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Sdc3000 (talk · contribs), thanks for explaining. I had meant to check one or more sources for the Carl Wahlstrom material. Because I don't trust DendroNaja's editing, per what I stated above (his unverified or poorly sourced "borderline personality disorder" content and that he engages in WP:Synthesis), and because of your explanations, I agree that we should not revert the article back to the aforementioned previous state. Flyer22 (talk) 00:19, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Wolfpowers (talk · contribs), do stop WP:Edit warring. Your statement of "It is well known - you're correct about that. But it's not true. If you're going to include it, please cite it." makes no sense at all, given that Dahmer's murders did involve necrophilia and cannibalism. The only thing I could see you reasonably disputing is the word many, depending on how you define "many." Furthermore, per WP:CITELEAD, the lead does not necessarily need sources when the content is sourced lower. The necrophilia and cannibalism aspects are clearly sourced lower in the article. Flyer22 (talk) 14:34, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

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Lindsay and Lindsey

One victim is identified as both Lindsay and Lindsey. Article should be corrected to consistently display proper name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:C481:C1D0:45B6:2F53:A0D7:D622 (talk) 23:51, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Edit syntax, please?

The syntax of this sentence seems incredibly off. Can it be changed to be more grammatically understandable? Thanks.

"The knowledge regarding cleansing and preserving of these bones Dahmer would later use upon many of the animal remains which he continued to avidly collect and of which his father, being a chemist, taught his son safe usage.[19]"

Potential edit: "Dahmer would later use this knowledge upon many of the animal remains which he continued to avidly collect." The part about his chemist dad is almost redundant, and the article may be OK without it altogether.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:302:D1FC:70:44CB:FD29:AD15:AB8B (talk) 05:56, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

 Done. Chemist info. regarding the father is pertinent (he had the initial knowledge which he innocently passed to his son), but it is already clarified earlier in the article.--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:51, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

edit request

"By the summer of 1991, Dahmer was murdering approximately one person each week"

This makes him sound way more prolific than he actually was. This is a period of three weeks where he killed three people, shouldn't the sentence be written to accurately state this rather than imply much higher numbers? I can't edit it or I would.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.23.40.34 (talk) 17:12, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. I don't think it adds much to the article and could be misinterpreted. So I have removed that sentence. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:24, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

That sentence was not intended to imply his being "prolific": it was implying what Dahmer himself stated... that from the spring of 1991 onwards, the compulsion/drive ("like a festering sore") to be with someone who wouldn't leave him and to build the shrine overwhelmed him and (by his earlier standards) his ability to resist the urges waned ever more. That's why he lost his job; as his cycle of behavior became ever more disorganized via his drive to find new victims.--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:08, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

The arrest section has a very wrong recount of his last potential victim. If someone would be kind enough to watch the trial and fill out the proper account of him, that would be great. You will find that elements remain, but the layout is very different — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.248.247.229 (talk) 05:39, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

That's what's in the Masters book. The trial video is greatly edited. Any specific suggestions you have will be welcome, of course.--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:08, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Regarding: 924 North 25th Street, 1990 killings: "When he awoke, he discovered he had been robbed of $300 and a watch.[102] Dahmer never reported this incident to the police, although on May 29 he divulged to his probation officer that he had been robbed."

This is the wrong use of the word "robbed", which is a legal term. A robbery is by definition taking property by force or threat. Neither is true here. This was a simple theft and should read: "When he awoke, he discovered his $300 watch had been stolen.[102] Dahmer never reported this incident to the police, although on May 29 he divulged the theft to his probation officer."

For more info on robbery versus burglary versus theft, visit: http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/criminal-defense/criminal-offense/differences-between-theft-burglary-robbery96.42.38.210 (talk) 23:55, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

Masta Ace lyrics reference

http://lyrics.wikia.com/wiki/Masta_Ace:Slaughtahouse

I'm not jeffrey dahmer but I'll slaughta ya momma

Jidanni (talk) 05:13, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

We're not including "Masta Ace" in this article because he mentioned Dahmer in a song. Doc talk 06:58, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Edit request

Could someone please revert this edit? It completely mangled the original meaning of the sentence: Dahmer's father taught him how to bleach and preserve animal bones, not how to handle bleach. 32.218.45.132 (talk) 20:00, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

 Done AldezD (talk) 20:23, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Number of murders

In the overview thingie at the top, it says he was convicted of fifteen of the sixteen murders he had committed. Shouldn't that be 'accused of', just as a matter of standard procedure? (Full disclosure: I have basically no stake in this particular article, just in writing standards.)

- Horatio Von Becker 45.56.22.170 (talk) 02:05, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

: He wasn't charged with Toumi's murder because he had no memory of committing the actual act of murder. (Even by his standards he was drunk that night and the following morning in a panic spent an hour or more unsuccessfully searching for a bottle of Paramount rum he brought with him to the Ambassador.) Other victims like Doxtator had no remains found but he could recall committing the actual act. He was never formally accused of Tuomi's murder if memory serves me right, although he was listed on indictments.--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:09, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

American Horror Story: Hotel

Considering the fact the media section of the Dahmer article (just like other serial killer articles) begins with text reading "PLEASE DO NOT ADD REFERENCES TO INCIDENTAL DEPICTIONS OF DAHMER UPON ALBUM COVERS OR OTHER DEPICTIONS UPON TV SHOWS LIKE SOUTH PARK OR DEATH METAL LYRICS - OR OTHER IRRELEVANT TRIVIA HERE. IT DOES NOT BELONG HERE, AND WILL REMOVED WITH NO FURTHER DISCUSSION. TRIVIA IS INAPPROPRIATE PER THE PROJECT GOVERNING THIS ARTICLE" American Horror Story: Hotel falls within this criteria and as such, is inappropriate for this article.

If user 7e2 wants to comment alongside me on the Dahmer talk page to open a discussion as to whether it should be included, he/she should feel free to do so as I certainly wouldn't lose any sleep if it was included; it is just that current guidelines on many English Wikipedia articles of this topic currently state otherwise, and mark my words, if it is added, within months it will be smattered with incidental mentions, satirical imitations, album cover hearkening, lyrical inspirations etc. Maybe a "Television (fictional)" section could be added?--Kieronoldham (talk) 22:35, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

It has been our experience with this article in particular, but with many other such as well, that if we start putting in references like this, the entire article becomes swamped with shout-outs and "spot the pop-culture reference" trivia of no value to the article. Unless such a reference is itself the subject of third-party commentary, it will be removed in order to preserve some degree of integrity to the article. --Orange Mike | Talk 23:11, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

I didn't create it; just follow consensus as to the layman guidelines. While I can see your concerns regarding shout-outs, it is not difficult to overlook the benefits of seeing the likes of South Park or portrayals in sitcoms being irrelevant.--Kieronoldham (talk) 23:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 June 2017

In the section of early life, paragraph three should be as follows. After turning four years old, Dahmer underwent surgery to correct a double hernia. Soon after his surgery, people were noticing a change in his behavior, noticing that he was withdrawn from his family. Dahmer himself then recalled his early years of family life as being of "extreme tension" which he noted between his parents, whom he observed to be constantly arguing with each other. Vannah805 (talk) 20:24, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

References

Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Izno (talk) 15:31, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I went ahead and did it anyway. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 15:35, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I think it should remain protected indefinitely. If not, you wait and see just how much trivia and vandalism (some of which will be inevitably overlooked as time passes by) an article which sees this amount of daily views attracts.--Kieronoldham (talk) 19:22, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm unsure as to the reliability of biography.com. Has anyone ever raised similar concerns about it at WP:RSN? But that concern aside, the source given appears to link the change in his personality not to the hernia surgery, but to the birth of his brother? Or, at the very least, a single triggering life event is far from clear in the way that source is written. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:12, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I am uncertain as to the reliability of the site itself as per RSN. However, all this said, it seems to add undue weight to the conjecture of his developing personality to that instance of surgery for the hernia, which was mentioned by the defense and which Becker mentions for a documentary. Dahmer did remember the operation; he also remembered sitting with other children watching an episode of Bewitched either before or after it. (Report cards from teachers a few years later I am sure describe him as friendly but as he got a little older the concerns as to his family life begin to filter through re: his being withdrawn/neglected.) I have a more reputable source of info. to supersede the reference and add this in if consensus governs.--Kieronoldham (talk) 21:36, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Biography.com is owned and run by A&E Networks, a joint venture of Hearst corporation and ABC-Disney. They have actual journalists and an editorial policy. In the absence of evidence they are not reliable, I considered the claim well-enough supported for inclusion. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 22:36, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

You think that his personality changed, at the age of four, as a direct result of his surgery? That's not what the biography.com source seem to be saying. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:27, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Blaming the mother

This sentence seems biased "Although Dahmer was doted upon as an infant and toddler by both parents, his mother was known to be tense, greedy for attention, and argumentative with both her husband and her neighbors" towards blaming the mother for his future actions.

I believe we should be aware of any kind of bias that is not supported by science. I believe it should be either edited or deleted. Chibs007 (talk) 17:56, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Like many other statements in this article, the current source for that claim is "Murder In Mind issue 5. ISSN 1364-5803" (p. 32), for which no author is given. I think our first question should be - is this a WP:RS? If not, there's plenty more "editing or deleting" that may be required. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:02, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Other sources hark to the same factor. Brian Masters' book included.--Kieronoldham (talk) 04:25, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

The issn given is good and refers to a journal listed in WorldCat. Are we going to challenge every reference that is not online?  — Myk Streja ^(aack!) 04:51, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

There is no Wikipedia policy that requires sources to be online, not any for challenging those that are not. But I don't think that inclusion as a valid ISSN at WorldCat necessarily makes any source reliable? I suggest that sources without a named author are best avoided. In this particular case, I'm suggesting that if there is a better source, from a named author, who is a recognised expert in the field, than that source, whether online or not, should be used instead. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:32, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

I'll give it a go, Martinevans123. Just dinnae want to saturate the article with the same few sources. Ironically, I can tell you that that publication uses other printed works from named authors as its source of info. Regards. --Kieronoldham (talk) 10:41, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying Kieron. That makes sense. It's obviously not clear cut. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:00, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Brian Masters/page numbers

Kieronoldham, could it be that we're using different versions of Masters' book? In my version (1993, ISBN 0-340-57482-8), the name of the hospital is mentioned on p. 21, his father's ancestry on p. 19. Could you check if your version has a different ISBN? Just to avoid future confusion. Thank you! --Paleolovely (talk) 18:48, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Hi, Paleolovely. That's what I thought may be the case. The ISBN I have is 978-0-340-59194-9. Regards, --Kieronoldham (talk) 22:51, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks! I'll change the page number back to 21, so that it's consistent with the ISBN I used in the reference. Regards, --Paleolovely (talk) 20:09, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

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Carver schizophrenic

@Martinevans123: The book says "Scarver is an African-American, but it was not revenge for Dahmer’s killing of blacks. Scarver was a schizophrenic and thought he was carrying out orders from God." There is no citation given. zzz (talk) 10:56, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Did you mean my restoration of the tag here? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:00, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Yes. It is kind of the definition of schizophrenia, the above, is it not? Or should I say that Dr. Aggrawal says so? Or just "Carver was schizophrenic." zzz (talk) 11:01, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Ah right, so page 129 of Aggrawal (2016), yes? But the attack was in 1994, so the text should at least say "Scarver, who was thought to be schizophrenic." I mean, is Scarver even still alive? I think the "orders from God could" be also included for clarity. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:12, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

The sentence is "Immediately after attacking both men, Scarver, who is thought to be schizophrenic,[by whom?] returned to his cell and informed a prison guard: "God told me to do it. Jesse Anderson and Jeffrey Dahmer are dead."" Scarver is still alive. And his article says he was diagnosed as schizophrenic, I just noticed. But no reference. zzz (talk) 11:18, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

I assumed the reference supports the claim that Scarver was diagnosed as schizophrenic at the time of the attack in 1994. So I've now changed it to "was". I'm not sure we need to be that concerned, in this article, as to whether he's still alive and/or still has that diagnosis. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:26, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Looks good enough. Cheers. You're right, he must have been diagnosed. Although, do they leave schizophrenics in gen pop? Whatever. zzz (talk) 11:28, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

A diagnosis of schizophrenia does not imply medical or criminal incarceration. I'm sure there are many hundreds of thousands of people who are undiagnosed, especially in developing countries. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:37, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

I mean, gen pop prison slang. Not that I would be an expert in prison slang zzz (talk) 11:42, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Ah right, not that other gen pop, then. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:51, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

But that's a fair question. I see that Columbia Correctional Institution is a "maximum-security correctional facility", but the article doesn't say much about mental health issues. No date of diagnosis is given at the Christopher Scarver article, which makes me think this article might need to say something like "Scarver, who was later diagnosed as schizophrenic". That article does say: "Federal judge Barbara Crabb ordered that Scarver and about three dozen other seriously mentally ill inmates be relocated from the Wisconsin facility." But no date is given. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:58, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Mugshot

The mugshot image used for the infobox looks off-kilter like it is too much to the right. Maybe a different version of the same mugshot would be better, here is an example: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dahmer_dopo_cattura.jpg

...2604:2000:7040:A600:912:7505:836B:7794 (talk) 08:58, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

The current image is derived from the one you've linked. Yes, I guess he could be centred a bit, or the image trimmed, but I don't see that would be a big improvement. I think the off-kilter look amplifies the fact it's a police mug shot. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:11, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

(Not) Molested as a child?

The article states that Dahmer was sexually molested by a local boy. But the following sources say something different: According to Anne E. Schwartz (The Man Who Could Not Kill Enough: The Secret Murders of Milwaukee’s Jeffrey Dahmer. iUniverse, Bloomington, IN 2011, ISBN 978-1-4620-6269-0, p. 38) Lionel Dahmer denied that his son was molested as a child. He also denies it during his interview with Stone Phillips. According to Derf Backderf (My Friend Dahmer: A Graphic Novel. Abrams ComicArts, New York 2012, ISBN 978-1-4197-0216-7, p. 205) Dahmer was not molested by a neighborhood boy, his parents or other adults. Jeffrey Dahmer himself told Nancy Glass during the Inside Edition interview that he was never molested as a child.

This should be rectified in the article. --Paleolovely (talk) 21:43, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

I didn't add that, and none of the numerous books I have on Dahmer state he was molested. If the source is genuine, I suspect the claim is a figment of the author's imagination.--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:52, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

Disruption by IP 2600-1700

There's been a lot of rapid-fire disruption today by 2600:1700:bb91:1450:34e5:3e36:1929:628c (talk · contribs) with numerous small edits involving issues such as unnecessarily repeating "Wisconsin", or Dahmer's middle name every time, and the like; and after being reverted, putting back the same edits again and again. Things seems to have calmed down now after a couple of warnings on IP'sTalk page.

I reverted back to a version of April 19, but I see that IP 2600 has also edited occasionally before that; I'm not a regular editor here, so I'm not certain if the revert-point I picked from April 19 was a good one. If you are an experienced editor here, please have a look to see if other edits by IP further back need to be backed out or not. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 01:42, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Okay, this has ramped up in the last few days, with three different editors reverting series of edits by this IP user. The problem seems to go back further than I was aware, to at least January 2018. I haven't examined all of these in detail for consistency of pattern, but all of these have edited at Jeffrey Dahmer and been reverted or rolled back, many are SPAs editing only at Dahmer, or at Dahmer and List of incidents of cannibalism; and a few have other edits:

Also noticing some repetitive edits by different IPs, such as in these areas (links show reverts with explanation by other editors):

• Middle name (removed in definition): June 13, June 11, and April 20 (added unnecessarily in body)
• West Allis is in WI: June 13, April 30, April 29, April 20

This appears to be a pattern of multiple, long-term, repetitive, low-grade, disruption mixed in with some tolerable Oxford comma fixes, or other minor beneficial improvements, to create a thin veneer of acceptability. What, me disruptive? The problem hitherto has been that their dickery has been too minor and flown under the radar. Do we just continue to play whack-a-mole, or can anything be done, here?

Pinging other editors involved in recent reverts: @Drmies, Martinevans123, Shellwood, and Orangemike: Mathglot (talk) 08:46, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Wow, I hadn't realized this had become quite so bad. What a prime waste of everyone's time. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:42, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

• I don't know how long this goes back. Maybe a rangeblock is useful but I don't have the time right now. I applied semi-protection. Thanks all. Drmies (talk) 15:15, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

See also: Talk:List of incidents of cannibalism/Archive 1#Disruption by IP. Mathglot (talk) 21:05, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Jeffrey Dahmer's parents

You might want to try to obtain the birthdates for the subject's parents. After the notable facts, Jeffrey Dahmer and his father gave an interview on national television in the United States (they were interviewed by Stone Phillips), so his father actually has more notability than most relatives of serial killers do. In addition, I believe his father was a chemist of some sort, which is a difficult occupation to obtain. - 108.71.133.201 (talk) 15:29, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

I disagree that either his occupation or his single appearance on television makes Lionel Herbert Dahmer notable. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:52, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, but my point is, shouldn't someone try to find the birthdates? - 108.71.133.201 (talk) 15:57, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Well, we have similar dates for both of Fred West's parents, so I guess that's reasonable. Walter West was a milking herdsman and I'm pretty sure he never appeared on television. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:13, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

1982 indecent exposure mug shot should be in infobox

The 1982 indecent exposure mug shot should be moved to the infobox since it is the most well-known photograph of Jeffrey Dahmer. This might seem ironic, but it is. - 108.71.133.201 (talk) 17:04, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

Some research would be needed to authenticate your claim. As for mug shots I'd personally say he was known for what he was arrested for in 1991 as opposed to 1982 as I stated on my talk page to you yesterday. As for any particular image being the most "well-known", I'd personally claim the image of him either wearing the orange prison garb or the shirt with the linear pattern given to him by Pat Kennedy at his (I believe) earlier hearings in Milwaukee. Consensus governs, of course. Regards, --Kieronoldham (talk) 03:38, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

Agree with going with this one as the lead image. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:00, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

parents name

could they put dahmer's parents in the infobox ???? both the parents of Gacy those of Berdella and the mother of bundy appear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pyloncreepy (talk • contribs) 19:31, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

They could. So I did. Although I'm not entirely sure why, as neither of them (nor any of the others) are independently notable. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:46, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Is his father worth of an article

Or when he dies worth of "recent deaths", he's a chemist, writer and appeared on national TV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 181.27.181.191 (talk) 11:46, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Multiple images nominated for deletion

See Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2019 September 30. Macabre213 (talk) 09:16, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 November 2019

Ohio State references should read The Ohio State. 104.220.203.240 (talk) 08:07, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

 Not done. Seems to be more common without the "the". –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 15:13, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

The article name is, of course, Ohio State University; even if the first sentence there begins "The Ohio State University ..." Martinevans123 (talk) 15:35, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Animal Cruelty

I feel this tag should be removed because he didn't actually kill live animals, he only collected road kill. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TYMR (talk • contribs) 02:21, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Maybe. He did poison amphibians at least once as a child, in addition to displaying skulls (of already dead animals) on spikes and entrails etc. upon trees--Kieronoldham (talk) 03:03, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 June 2020

Change anywhere in the article that it references victims as "young men" to "young men and boys" 2001:48F8:9023:AE0:3551:A145:3FFD:1CF6 (talk) 06:57, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: I don't really think that is necessary or constructive - "young men" is already pretty all-encompassing Ed6767 talk! 11:43, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

"Dhamer" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Dhamer. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 July 20#Dhamer until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 14:21, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Racial attack

According to the New York Times [6][7]

• "Mr. Dahmer, whose victims were mostly black, Hispanic and Asian men and boys"
• "Mr. Scarver, who is black, expressed hostility toward whites. When asked by a psychiatrist whether he thought his own sentence was just, Mr. Scarver replied: "Nothing white people do is just.""
• For the past two years, a victim's relative (Rita Isbell who is black) said, she has been getting telephone calls from men identifying themselves as prison inmates, offering condolences and promises that Mr. Dahmer would be "taken care of." The last call came about six months ago. "You don't know me," Ms. Isbell quoted the caller as saying. "I'm up here with Jeffrey Dahmer. Don't worry. We'll take care of it."'

Our article makes no mention of any of this. -- GreenC 23:58, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

I said on here a few years ago Scarver's claims are ludicrous (gloating about his crimes via making dismembered limbs out of his food and using ketchup to simulate blood, aparently showing Dahmer an article covering his trial before asking him if the claims were true before attacking him etc.) Scarver apparently said to the guy he shot "Do you think I'm kidding, Mister Hitler?" Anderson was convicted of a highly-publicized tial in which he murdered his wife and blamed her death on black perpetrators. It is quite obvious what at least some of Scarver's motivations were. Also, sources are contradictory, but, some state Dahmer was once gang raped by blacks in the 1980s while incarcerated and this may have festered prejudices. Just my opinion, but I disagree.

He always stated it was body form, not color, which attracted his attention. Got to consider the demographics of his neighborhood and the locations he searched for his victims. He also said black males were more likely to have the hairless torsos he preferred as opposed to whites. Maybe this should be morphed into the article. I think Scarver's claims (while I believe seeking to have his "story told") should be removed or, at least, heavily trimmed.--Kieronoldham (talk) 00:33, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

To be honest I can't really follow what your saying because it is so digressive. In 1994, the New York Times reported significant issues related to the case not included in this article. They are listed above. Apparently the idea that a black man might have taken revenge on a white man due to racial motivations is either not credible ("Scarver's claims are ludicrous") or it is obvious ("It is quite obvious what at least some of Scarver's motivations were"). I feel as though you are all over the place, but not homing in on the core issue and what the reliable source says. -- GreenC 21:16, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

That comment was over four months ago. I am not denying the source is reliable, or the claims. Yeah I did meander a little into the later claims Scarver made years later as I just don't personally believe Scarver's claims the guards deliberately left him alone with Dahmer to kill him, that he made a point of making body parts out of his food to taunt inmates, or that he held a copy of a newspaper article to Dahmer's face asking if the claims were true before launching his attack. That wasn't what was discussed. Initial ref. should be included. A few years ago there was content regarding Dahmer being known to be at risk and requiring protection from guards wherever he went. Not there anymore, I see. Perhaps a paragraph containing the above information could be added below the paragraph beginning with the words: "In July 1994, a fellow inmate, Osvaldo Durruthy, attempted to slash Dahmer's throat"?--Kieronoldham (talk) 21:31, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 October 2020

edit the location where the first murder victim (Steven Hicks) was heading to. It currently says that he was heading to Lockwood Corners when he was actually heading to Chippewa Lake Park to see a band called Pegasus(The show he was supposed to go to).

On June 18,[44] Dahmer picked up a hitchhiker named Steven Mark Hicks, who was almost 19.[45][46] Dahmer lured the youth to his house on the pretext of the two young men drinking alcohol together. Hicks, who had been hitchhiking to a rock concert by the band Pegasus at the Chippewa Lake Park,[47] agreed to accompany Dahmer to his house. According to Dahmer, after several hours drinking and listening to music, Hicks "wanted to leave and [I] didn't want him to."[48]

Zappaholic (talk) 19:53, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Adjusted location. New reference states hitchhiked thirty miles from Coventry to Chippewa Lake Park.--Kieronoldham (talk) 21:51, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

References

Good article criteria — fixing the time

In the top of the talk section, it states that the good article review for this page was stopped on the year 2999? This should be fixed accordingly, I don't think we're heading for the fourth millennium anytime soon.Josharaujo1115 (talk) 02:09, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Overlooked vandalism from lat year, Josharaujo1115. The page was archived shortly after the vandalism. I have fixed it. Regards,--Kieronoldham (talk) 02:35, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Convictions?

I noticed the infobox near the top of this article lists "Conviction(s)" as:

• First-degree murder
• Child molestation
• Indecent exposure
• Disorderly conduct
• Public intoxication

However, all I can find in the cited sources are 15 initial murder convictions, plus one more (in a different jurisdiction). Does anyone have any idea what I'm missing (i.e. where the other convictions are listed)? If the info isn't sourced, it should probably be removed, but before I touch it, I want to be certain I didn't overlook something. Thanks! — UncleBubba ^{( T @ C )} 20:45, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Some are listed in the article. I have listed references for each:

Disorderly conduct August 7, 1982 @ Wisconsin State Fair Park. P. 135 of Norris's book

Public intoxication/resisting arrest October 7, 1981 @ Maxwell's Lounge in Bath Township Pp. 125-126 of Norris's book

Indecent exposure (plus lewd and lascivious behavior) September 8, 1986 @ Kinnickinnic River Parkway P. 99 of Masters' book

Sexual assault and enticing a child for immoral purposes January 30, 1989 (in relation to the 1988 sexual assault of the 13-year-old). p. 170 of Holewa's book.--Kieronoldham (talk) 01:23, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

Germany

Is it appropriate to include the unverified claims that Dahmer raped two soldiers in Germany?

1. He was very forthcoming about his crimes. The only reason we are aware of many of them is because he confessed to it.
2. In numerous sessions with psychiatrists, detectives, FBI agents, he was adamant that he did not have homosexual relations while in Germany. He said that he had discovered homosexual pornography there and used it for masturbation. And that one time an older sergeant propositioned him, but Dahmer turned him down. In this period, he was still conflicted about fully embracing his sexuality.
3. As soon as news about Dahmer broke out, the media went to interview anyone they could find. Of his time in Germany everyone said that all he did was drink until he passed out on his bed.
4. Raping soldiers in Germany doesn't fit his psychological profile. His journey into depravity was one of gradual escalation.
5. If he had raped two soldiers in Germany, why would he hide it? He had already confessed to raping, killing, engaging in necrophilia, dismemberment, cannibalization, attempts at creating zombies of multiple people. He even told about the attempt at that jogger in 1976! Why risk hiding something that can be easily exposed due to his notoriety and crush his entire case? His honesty was his only saving grace.
6. Beating and raping a guy for 7 months is not Dahmer's MO. He was not into torturing conscious victims. In his sick mind, he loved them.
7. The guy does not fit Dahmer's preferences at all. Dahmer was obsessed with a certain body type, it was his turn on. That guy is a complete opposite of it.
8. As it stands now, these are unverified claims that were made 16 years after his death.--CJC-DI (talk) 23:08, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

I agree with CJC-DI. He had nothing to lose by confessing to these crimes, had they occurred. He even admitted murders which would never have been linked to him. Had he not confessed, with a possibility at a much later date of the death of Steven Hicks being linked to him (had his remains been found), he could have claimed Sears was his first murder victim. This text("Two soldiers have since claimed to have been raped by Dahmer while in the Army. In 2010, one stated that Dahmer had repeatedly raped him over a 17-month period while they were both stationed at Baumholder, while another soldier believes Dahmer drugged and raped him inside an armored personnel carrier in 1979") may be worthy of inclusion within the notes section, however.--Kieronoldham (talk) 17:33, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Does anyone have access to page 40 of Freyd and Birrell (2013)? No Google preview available. Also, just for info, here's an 2017 article from The Daily Mail that we can't use: [8]. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:44, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Not personally, Martin.--Kieronoldham (talk) 17:19, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 May 2021

Change: Under parents Joyce Annette (née Flint)

To: (born Flint or born Joyce Flint)

Née is the French for born so I think it should be changed in the English entry. 68.151.136.4 (talk) 08:00, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: this is a fairly common thing that's done for women's maiden names, especially when conserving space is of interest. See MOS:NEE. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 08:32, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Cannibalism

It doesn’t mention when he cannibalized his victims under his murders. Jdietr601 (talk) 15:44, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Ernest Miller was the first victim Dahmer consumed portions of flesh from. P. 155 of Masters' book.--Kieronoldham (talk) 15:58, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Then why doesn’t it mention that in the article? MaxwellWinnie102 (talk) 15:41, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

The article does state he placed the biceps et cetera in the fridge for later consumption. Dr. Becker stated at the trial he "tenderized the heart, ate it and the muscle meat".--Kieronoldham (talk) 23:00, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 February 2022

Michael McCann (prosecuter is E. Michael McCann has a wikipedia page) 2600:6C44:7F:DC2C:7136:19CC:3C4E:D46D (talk) 02:00, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ––FormalDude talk 03:55, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

I have linked the first instance of Michael McCann, as I guess this is what is being requested. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:21, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 January 2022

In media -> please add:

---

start-----------------------------------------------

Music

• 213 (1994). Song by the American Thrash metal band Slayer (album: Divine Intervention)
• Dahmer (2002). Concept album by the Amcerican Death-metal band Macabre
• Jeffrey Dahmer (2010). Song by the metal band Soulfly (album: Omen)

---

end-----------------------------------------------

H8eternal (talk) 13:45, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: These need reliable secondary sources, showing they are notable examples. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:56, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Note it's this one for Slayer, and that article does have two RS sources. Not checked the other two. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:30, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

This is trivia, really. Not really encyclopedic. If this permeates through then there'll be a deluge of "mentioned in Season 3 Episode 2" of such and such a series proposals. Look at the In media section of the Aileen Wuornos article.--Kieronoldham (talk) 20:43, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

I tend to agree. Just because Dahmer may be notable for the songs, doesn't mean the songs are notable for Dahmer. The RS secondary sources are perfectly relevant for the articles of the bands or albums concerned. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:00, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

ok. think I got it now. inserted some reliable secondary sources below, that were used in the Wiki-pages for the bands' albums already before:

Macabre: taken for the Wiki page for the "Dahmer album" itself references (Dahmer_(album) : ::https://www.allmusic.com/artist/macabre-mn0000220123/biography

Soulfly: taken for the Wiki page for the "Omen (Soulfly album)" itself references Omen_(Soulfly_album)

https://www.allmusic.com/album/omen-mw0001983498

Slayer: taken for the Wiki page for the Divine_Intervention_(Slayer_album) itself references [[9]] :

https://web.archive.org/web/20121111023533/http://www.nytimes.com/1995/02/20/arts/pop-review-death-and-madness-remain-the-basics-in-slayer-s-repertory.html

archived from the original NYT-article about the Slayer album:

https://www.nytimes.com/1995/02/20/arts/pop-review-death-and-madness-remain-the-basics-in-slayer-s-repertory.html

H8eternal (talk) 12:09, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

removed the old sources, for your convenience H8eternal (talk) 10:39, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Those sources look ok to me, although NYT is behind a paywall. Let's get a second opinion. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:44, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

You can see the nyt source through the archive. Now the question becomes is this WP:DUE? I generally fall on the "less trivia" side. There would have to be a significant amount of coverage for me to think it belonged in the article. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:01, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

No strong view. But all three sources are written from the perspective of the music. So, as I said above, while Dahmer may be considered notable for the music, the reverse is not necessarily true. I think we'd need some source(s) about Dahmer that mention these songs? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:22, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

ok I think this article meets the demands now - source about Dahmer and his impact on metal music, mentioning the Slayer and the Macabre songs [we have to skip the Soulfly then]:

https://www.invisibleoranges.com/metal-and-jeffrey-dahmer/

H8eternal (talk) 09:08, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

If invisibleoranges.com is WP:RS (and I don't know how to tell for sure), maybe there's a place for it at thrash metal, death-metal or heavy metal music? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:35, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Invisible Oranges as you can see has a wiki-page of its own. so I guess it should be a WP:RS H8eternal (talk) 10:18, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

As do the National Enquirer, the Daily Star and FrontPage Magazine. But, by all means, ask at WT:RSP. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:28, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

H8eternal asked at WP:RSN thread Invisible_Oranges. Peter Gulutzan (talk) 14:42, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

ok - I asked at WT:RSP, it didn't generate a lot of discussion, but the one user who replied said he was inclined to treat the source as reliable for non-exceptional claims like the ones in my proposed addition for the Dahmer page. I suppose this means we don't have to expect any intervention from this side.

if anyone feels this addition can be done now please feel free to do it. the content can be taken from very top marked with start/end. thank you.H8eternal (talk) 17:00, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Well, User:JayBeeEll also said "I'm skeptical that it should be mentioned on Dahmer's biography", so I'm still a little wary. If it was added, I wouldn't remove it. It does have factual content about Dahmer and also has links to the songs, although I think the author "Scab Casserole" just might be a nom-de-plume. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:57, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

anyone else having an opinion on this. if not I will make the new entry for "music". Even if someone does not like metal I think "music" should have a category in "media", being an essential part in arts. but that's just me... H8eternal (talk) 10:50, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

At the top and bottom of the In media section is a tag, which is on many articles of this nature, and begins with the words "please do not add song references".

If you can get a clear consensus to keep the "music" in there then obviously, consensus governs. I do think it is trivia, just like the Church of Misery song etc. I certainly don't see many book authors or documentary makers rushing to tell readers or viewers such and such an artist wrote a song about Dahmer, or mentioned him in lyrics. I'd open a poll, otherwise it may be removed. The article has just shy of 730 active watchers, so I believe opening a poll as to worthiness would be wise. Regards, --Kieronoldham (talk) 13:08, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

I get what you mean @ Kieronoldham, but in the case of the band Macabre it is a whole concept album, telling the entire life story of Dahmer. I think at least this would qualify. so yes please open a poll on this, to see if we can get a clear consensus on this or not. Thank you! H8eternal (talk) 08:34, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

@ Kieronoldham thinks I should creat the poll here. since I'm a newb can anyone tell me how to do this. I looked around but could not find any poll-tool. thx for your help. H8eternal (talk) 16:08, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

We don't do polls here. The closest we come, is a Request for Comments. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:31, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Not giving up on this one, are you? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:32, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Not so much a poll really. More a request for comment. It has resolved differences of opinion on talk pages of articles such as the Dennis Nilsen article, via page watchers and readers, to obtain consensus.--Kieronoldham (talk) 03:16, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Request for comment on the inclusion of a music sub-section in the media section

Should the media paragraph in the English version of the biography of Jeffrey Dahmer mention also music of significant artists that was inspired by the life story of Jeffrey Dahmer (as seen on the German version for example)? Background is the discusion in the Semi-protected edit request on 17 January 2022?H8eternal (talk) 14:49, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose Any mention of music is trivia, and will very likely lead to a deluge of incidental mentions in fictional crime shows, depictions in South Park, poems about Dahmer etc. Generally, it would trivialize the section in question. Also, it is a gray area as to what artists are "significant" and which are not. The artists mention their inspiration from Dahmer on their pages (as you mentioned; I have not verified this). He should be mentioned on their Wiki. articles and not them on his.--Kieronoldham (talk) 16:35, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support Why should music be excluded when film, books, television, and theater are included? Gamaliel (talk) 16:45, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

• Support inclusion of only material cited to reliable sources and not blogs. Gamaliel (talk) 17:55, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

• Note of caution In principle this might be ok... e.g. The Jeffery Dahmer Extreme Metal Songbook, or a soundtrack album for Jeff Dahmer: The Opera, etc. But the background discussion above concluded we are talking about one source: invisibleormages.com, titled "The Tomb Within: Metal and Jeffrey Dahmer" by one Scab Casserole, which discusses two songs, by two different extreme metal bands? As I said above, maybe that's a good source for that music genre article, or for the articles for those bands, but not sure for here, because it's about those songs, not really about Dahmer. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:03, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

• Thanks. I do hate misleading RFCs. Gamaliel (talk) 17:55, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose It ventures too much into trivia territory. CJC-DI (talk) 19:06, 18 February 2022 (UTC).
• Oppose because of poor quality sourcing. If this were covered by good sources I would support.--Seggallion (talk) 10:02, 21 February 2022 (UTC) sock puppet of banned user
• Conditionally Support - I don't think references in music should be treated differently than in other mediums, as long as high-quality sources exist to back it up. But as mentioned above, this shouldn't be seen as a carte blanche to just paste any old bandcamp album with a fleeting mention on a music blog in here. PraiseVivec (talk) 15:11, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Oppose per Seggallion, and this just seems like information that doesn't really serve any purpose? Death metal bands or extreme metal bands reference many vile acts all the time, don't see why this is any different. shanghai.^{talk to me} 18:57, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

• Support if reliable sources support the claims.Writethisway (talk) 23:14, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 April 2022

It is completely inaccurate and insulting to use the term “deaf-mute”. It is equivalent to using the N-word. Please edit the term to the correct one which is simply the captilized word “Deaf”. I assure you deaf people are capable of making noise. They are not mute!

Also- I’m an ASL interpreter with experience of this event and interpreted one victim’s funeral. Please make the correction. 2603:6000:A700:E8C2:84B6:FF06:1803:4C4C (talk) 21:47, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

How is this insensitive? Even more so, how is this as insulting as "the N-word?" This is the term used by authors. Hughes communicated with Dahmer by handwritten notes. Everyone knows deafness means no damage to vocal cords, but, sadly, Tony Hughes could not speak. I read he was effective at lip reading though. He lost his hearing due to a childhood illness.--Kieronoldham (talk) 22:01, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

I've replaced the text "Hughes was a deaf-mute whom Dahmer lured to his apartment... " with simply "Hughes was lured by Dahmer to his apartment... ", as it seemed to be somewhat redundant. I guess it might be insensitive to describe Hughes as "a deaf mute" rather than "a deaf and mute person". But I do not have access to the source (Dvorchak & Holewa, 1992) and it is not available online. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:07, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Have added a reference, Martinevans123. The reference describes Hughes as "deaf and dumb"; other sources (like Dvorchak & Holewa) describe Hughes as a deaf-mute. I really do believe no offense is intended (and certainly do not mean so in my observation). I understand the sensitivity regarding conditions, afflictions etc. but no offense is intended by the authors. A disability or deprived capability is just that.--Kieronoldham (talk) 22:16, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, Masters (2020) uses the term "deaf and dumb" which is the comparable, but equally dated, British English term. He also describes him as "the mute", which may sound equally demeaning in 2022. Masters also tells us that Hughes was black: [10] (as were another 8 of the victims). Should that be added, or it is in some way insulting/ irrelevant? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:20, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

I am referring to the sources I have and access, which are printed books, Martinevans123. No offensive terms are replicated in the source I have, which I purchased in the late 1990s. Masters did not mean any offense. They may be acceptable terms used at the time. (You can read Masters' reflections of the trial when he was shown photos of Eddie Smith by Smith's sister, Carolyn which reveal he was not trying to demean the victims.) As for the races of his victims, that's a topic of debate I would like to believe the article already covers sufficiently. --Kieronoldham (talk) 22:33, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying. I'm sure both Masters (1993/2000) and (Dvorchak & Holewa, 1992) did not mean any offence. They probably were acceptable terms at the time; if they were used at the trial and/or in contemporary reporting, there's a case they should also be used here. As we've heard no more from the IP editor, I'll close this request for now. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:04, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 April 2022

Most of this has lies in it I did the research and his late 20’s he did not “find him at the side of the road” he was along with the 17 others so stop with these lies they can cause traumatic experiences 75.104.122.81 (talk) 22:48, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:53, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 September 2022

Netflix has released a new limited biographical crime drama series about Jeffrey Dahmer, it's listed on Wikipedia as well as on IMDb and Netflix itself. I hope this can be added to Jeffrey Dahmer § Television.

Hope this helps! DananaBananah (talk) 13:56, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

 Done ––FormalDude (talk) 14:39, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 September 2022

Adding where Dahmer's dad got his education.

In the page it states: The same year, Lionel earned his degree [reference 24].

Lionel got his PhD in Chemistry at Iowa State University, in Ames, Iowa in 1966. Reference 24 contains that fact. Jlgv94 (talk) 04:22, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

That is really relating to his Dad, though? The article clarifies he was at Marquette at the time of Dahmer's birth. In '62 he enrolled at Iowa State University.--Kieronoldham (talk) 05:35, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, this is just to clarify what degree he got and where (location) he did. It is about his dad, not Jeffrey. Jlgv94 (talk) 17:50, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

The use of youth in reference to his first murder

I feel like the use of "youth" in reference to his first victim is overly pejorative. Dahmer was 18 the victim was 19. The use of youth in American English implies a power gap and implies pederasty. I would replace it with "older boy" VoodooPatches (talk) 21:05, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Complete sentences

There’s no good reason for any list entry in this article to be a lazy sentence fragment. Anyone with a mind to copyedit this issue will have my support. Julietdeltalima (talk) 09:28, 25 September 2022 (UTC)