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Talk:Jean Berlie

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Hold on

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I am just creating this page and it may take a little time to have it completed with all references & publications available. Thanks to be patient.(Bozo888 (talk) 12:26, 15 February 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Follow up

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There are still many more Articles, Reviews, and Conferences to add. They can be easily found through a Google search. This biography should be completed when time permits. (Bozo888 (talk) 21:10, 18 February 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Proposal for deletion removed

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To the person who proposed this article for deletion on 27.02.2010. As proposed in your template, I have removed your proposal for deletion for the following reasons:

Have you considered that this academic:

  • appears as a reference in 674 books specialized in its scholarly discipline (corresponds to criteria 1 of the Professor Test),
  • has received the Legion d'honneur from the French government (corresponds to criteria 2 of the Professor Test),
  • is currently a member of 2 prestigious scholarly societies & associations in its scholarly discipline (corresponds to criteria 3 of the Professor Test).

Moreover, this academic:

  • has published 11 very unique & specialized books in its scholarly discipline,
  • appears in Google with 6.650 hits under "Jean A. Berlie" and with 1,780 hits under "Jean Berlie" (might corresponds to criteria 1 of the Professor Test, but I am not sure it is limited to its scholarly discipline...),
  • has published numerous articles & reviews in its scholarly discipline (already shows 45 references in this article, but there are probably more than 100 books+articles+conferences+reviews in total).

Moreover, I would be grateful if you could:

  • sign your proposal for deletion (with all due respect, are you a moderator or a jealous academic?),
  • explain what you define as trivia in this article, which you wish to be removed (is it the personal life? why?),
  • explain why the 3 criteria which are met in the Professor Test seem not to be enough for you (did you overlook them or am I wrong in assessing that they are valid criteria?),
  • give me guidelines or suggestions as to how to improve this article and show more notability (do you have some valid biographies present in Wikipedia that I could inspire myself from?).

I would sincerely appreciate your comments & advices. (Bozo888 (talk) 21:23, 20 February 2010 (UTC))[reply]

It was I who added the Proposal for Deletion template. It's not possible to sign these templates, but if you check the article's History you can see who's added them. I'm just a regular Wikipedian - not a moderator, and certainly not a "jealous academic" (the very thought is quite amusing).
I suppose in hindsight, Berlie may be notable enough for his own article... but it needs a lot of work.
  • You say that he was awarded the Legion d'Honneur. But the article doesn't say this!!
  • What are the scholarly societies that he's a member of? If you mean the Cultural Institute of Macau or IIAS, then these scholarships are not especially notable. Just working somewhere or having a qualification from somewhere is not notable.
  • Practically everything in this article is trivia. Almost all needs to be removed. Restrict the article to notable points only, perhaps with a very brief background history. E.g. "formerly a sailor and pilot". There's absolutely no need to list every single thing he's done in his life, or every country he's visited. Who cares if his son is a French parachutist, or that he once went to Venezuela? These facts are just not relevant (and if they are relevant, then you need to explain why).
  • Also, don't list every single scholarly work, or conference. This is an encyclopedia, not a CV. Keep it relevant!
Have a look at these articles as examples of the sort of thing you should be aiming for (one academic, and one Legion d'Honneur recipient): Sydney Cohen, Lady Feodora Gleichen. There are plenty of others for you to find.
Hope that helps. Bazonka (talk) 22:14, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Bazonka,
I agree that the tought of the "jealous academic" is odd ;) But frankly the academic industry (= education civil service) seems pretty strange to me, as well as the stories I hear about it...
Please let me show you where you overlooked what I mention:
  • Legion d'honneur: it is present at the bottom of the box under his photo with the initials "L.H.". I insisted to put it in his bio, despite he didn't want it to appear due to shyness. The compromise is the initials only, which you missed. I will have a chat with him and make it appear more obvious with his approval.
  • Scholarly societies: you are mixing up the scholarly societies he is part of with the Scholarships he got. The scholarly societies are: the Centre of Asian Studies of the University of Hong Kong, in China, and the Tai Culture Review, in Berlin, Germany. It is present under Career/Academic.
I personnally find his life most interesting, and probably much more interesting that pure traditionnal academic profiles:
  • I find it interesting that his academic career actually is his fourth industry carrer (1/shipping 2/military 3/airline 4/academic ), which allows him to have a unique & very open overview of his current job, as an anthropologist academic.
  • I find it fascinating that he has traveled in half of the countries of the planet, which proves that he is not an armchair anthropologist (as so many are), and that he got a live understanding of different cultures of our planet.
  • May be I should add as well that he speaks more than 15 languages, which obviously helps to understand people of different cultures.
  • I have tried to put in this article information about his life that are relevant for understanding how he produces what he does in anthropology. This information is usually missing from such encyclopedia articles due to the fact that the subject is usually deceased, and such information cannot be obtained.
Nevertheless I understand your point and see the work still to be done. I will strive to:
  • Amend the personnal life side of things in order to keep things only relevant to what makes him now what he is.
  • Explain why I point out certain personnal aspects in relevance to his anthropologist work.
  • Limit or summarize the scholarly works and conferences (I actually thought that an encyclopedia aimed to be exhaustive).
  • Thanks for the suggestions and examples. They are very brief. I have found others with much more substance about the life of the subject, especially in the living persons category, and will try to find my own balance in this respect. Please let me know in the discussion section when I am still not on target.
There is indeed a lot of work to be done, and I will need some time to do that.
Thanks for your help.
(Bozo888 (talk) 23:12, 20 February 2010 (UTC))[reply]
Being a mere researcher at the Centre for Asian Studies is not notable - there are millons of researchers around the world, should they all have their own articles? Being a board member may be notable, but since the Tai Culture Review doesn't even have its own Wikipedia article, then I suspect not. Also as it seems you are personally acquainted with Berlie, you should be aware of Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. Be careful. Bazonka (talk) 12:31, 21 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok.

I know him, which is why I created this biography. But I am not close enough to have any problem scrapping the whole biography if it does not add anything. Notability in this case may be sufficient thanks to being the reference for 700 books specialized in its scholarly discipline + the Legion d'honneur. Considering that I built the bio by merely copying other bios' structures present on Wikipedia, I only filled-in a tentative template. I got the point about the restructuring & content relevancy.

I am still at a loss regarding what to include in the bibliography for academics (books, articles, conferences, reviews, critics,...). What is the right balance between "not enough references" and "too many references"? and the references' relevancy? Is there a guideline within Wikipedia at this respect? (Bozo888 (talk) 14:15, 21 February 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Hi Bazonka, Thanks for the modifications. It is now much smoother indeed. I have added a sentence on the travels in background, as I know he is found of it. I have also added the books' biography (1 line for each only), so people have at least an idea of the subjects he writes about. I will find out about the missing dates asap. Any further improvement to improve the fluidity of the article is welcome!

(Bozo888 (talk) 07:29, 28 February 2010 (UTC))[reply]

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