Talk:Japan v Iraq (1994 FIFA World Cup qualification)

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A fact from Japan v Iraq (1994 FIFA World Cup qualification) appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 17 May 2006. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the Agony of Doha is a term used by fans of the Japanese national football team to refer to the 1994 FIFA World Cup qualification match where Japan lost its World Cup place to South Korea?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2006/May.

Wikipedia

Some personal view

I totally remember watching this game live on TV when I was in Japan. The Japanese team had basically assumed they were going to win and you could see them relax on the field, not putting in as much effort as they had during the rest of the game, except for Kazu who was trying to marshal the defense for the corner kick. When Iraq scored the equalizer, the announcer was stunned speechless The sequence was something like, "If Japan can hold on, we're going to the World Cup! It will the first ever World Cup appearance for Japan! [player name] takes the corner..." followed by a good 30 seconds of silence. It was so sad. howch e ng {chat} 15:59, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

miracle of doha?

it was written that the korean fans refer this match as miracle of doha i never heard any korean football fan talk about this match nor call this match as a 'miracle'. the goal.com and ohmynews provided on the main page does not express the korean fan's point of view, it was journalists (writers) personal opinion. 202.37.68.251 05:36, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree that they were the journalists' personal opinions - rather, they were implying that it was the case, though I can see how this might not be conclusive enough for a Wiki entry. However, this article from a korean paper does make a reference to the "Miracle of Doha". Although it is in reference to the combination of results, not the Japan vs Iraq match itself, I think that should be worthy of a mention in this article. Ytny 06:22, 21 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

then please re-phrase it; it still says Korean fans refer... 139.80.123.40 10:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think you misunderstood me. I was simply making the distinction between the "Agony", which refers to the single match, and the "Miracle" which refers to the combination of results that includes the "Agony".

It's a separate issue from the point you make. The cited article clearly says that Korean fans refer to the results as the "Miracle of Doha", not "it can be referred", as you put it. The former would be stating a fact, which the article does, and the latter is opinion or speculation. Ytny 12:49, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tragedy of Doha

I momentarily moved this page to "Tragedy of Doha" in order to correct the translation of "higeki", but realized that the incorrect translation ("agony") is more commonly used in English-language commentary. I've undone my damage and added a note on the translation. --Meyer 08:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I started this article, and I actually wasn't sure whether to go with "Agony" or "Tragedy", since I've seen both. And Tragedy of Doha now redirects here, so it's all good, I think. It seems "Agony of" is more popular since it's more comparable to, say, Agony of Aggiornamento than a tragedy. Ytny (talk) 13:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Who got the Idea that the game/tournament is 'more commonly used'. I'm actually writing my thesis about Hans Ooft's work for the JFA and it's influences on the development in Japanese soccer (it's due in three weeks) and while I basically used only Japanese sources, I've encountered a few mentions of the "tragedy", but have never seen the "agony" anywhere but here on Wikipedia and some silly posts online. Also doesn't it make more sense? Since "agony" is just a wrong translation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.201.79.147 (talk) 19:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In football, the English term "tragedy" typically refers to an event that claimed human lives. In the context, "agony" is more suitable translation. Tarafuku10 (talk) 09:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV

Where is Iraq Lineup? and Please write about Uday Saddam Hussein things. That's true Tragedy! --219.99.103.79 20:29, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Iraq lineup is page now on right side page.okay Bonesyardz (talk) 07:55, 20 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

move to the Miracle of Doha

i thinkHearpade (talk) 23:25, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why is it 'Agony of Doha'?

I'm a Korean person who live in US. I can't agree about that headword. It's 'Miracle' to Korean people. Think about that.--NuvieK (talk) 06:19, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree your idea. First, I Think 'agony of Doha' is not netural.(NPOV Problem) So The Name need to be changed. We should find out alternative name between 'Agony of Doha' and 'Miracle of Doha'. --Awesong (talk) 06:25, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV??? That's crazy! So even Miracle on Ice is POV... it was a "miracle" for the US and an "agony" for the USSR... :-s --necronudist (talk) 10:10, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This one is an another problem. Especially, USSR is not on earth currently. Not Good one for comparison--Awesong (talk) 12:01, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe "Japan v Iraq (1993)", which is the generic convention of Category:Football (soccer) matches? cab (talk) 06:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I respect your opinion. but In that case, the contents of South Korea VS North Korea' match is not added. "Japan v Iraq "& South Korea VS North Korea' start at the same time. The name need to include that matchs. That one would be better.--Awesong (talk) 07:06, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Contents need to be changed, too.--Awesong (talk) 07:14, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agony : English, Japnese Wikipedia

Miracle : Korean, Arabic Wikipedia

Neutrality : German Wikipedia Sinuikiru (talk) 09:07, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is this something often talked about among South Korean football fans, not just nationalists? In any case, I would support a move to Japan v Iraq (1993). The other terms would redirect there, and both Agony of Doha and Miracle of Doh would be mentioned early in the article. --Apoc2400 (talk) 10:22, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I totally agree. Japan v Iraq (1993) I don't insist NPOV for nationalism. If I kept nationalism, I would follow Miracle of Doha. I don't have that idea.--Awesong (talk) 12:05, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Things are only POV when it's Wikipedians describing them in POV terms. When RS commonly or universally describe something in a certain manner, and the term is demonstrably notable, it's not POV. See Black Death, Hillborough Disaster, Hand of God etc. --Dweller (talk) 12:28, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agony of Doha, Miracle of Doha Both are controversial terms. It's NPOV. So I want to change it universally and commonly for Wikipedians.--Awesong (talk) 12:46, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do you mean it's POV? --Dweller (talk) 13:29, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Awesong says both Agony of Doha, and Miracle of Doha are not neutral.Sinuikiru (talk) 15:47, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do we have a number of reliable sources using this term to refer to the match? If so, it is neutral by our definition of neutrality, because it is verifiable. If not, it's neither and should be renamed. --Dweller (talk) 16:00, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think neutrality is that simple. Sources can be reliable but not completely neutral. --Apoc2400 (talk) 16:40, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for Dweller. Acturally, I was talking about naturality of the document, especially the term. I was confused among NPON, NPOV, Neturality. It's certain it wasn't any problem in reliable sources.--Awesong (talk) 15:29, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Both 'Agony' and 'Miracle' are absolutely not neutral. You can know or think it's 'Agony'. But the other people who think it's miracle to themselves like me, it should be 'Miracle'. We're not claiming it is miracle. We just want that it will be neutral. Even Korean languege Wikipedia users are discussing about that headword. We're using 'Miracle of Doha' now, but it's gonna be changed.--NuvieK (talk) 20:09, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Japan v Iraq (1993) is clearly more neutral than either Miracle or Agony of Doha. I would support the move to the neutral name and have the other two names included in the article. on camera^(t) 01:14, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Does anyone object? --Apoc2400 (talk) 02:35, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Most of wikipedians agree with Changing the term to Japan v Iraq (1993). But this document is unable to move to another term because of protection. So I'll ask for the adminstrator to change in 1 week, if you don't have any problem.--Awesong (talk) 03:08, 15 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree about Japan v Iraq (1993). --User:Bart0278 (talk · cont.) 06:36, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What about 'Match at Doha'? -- Modamoda (talk) 12:23, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure there has been many other matches in Doha. How about Japan v Iraq (Doha 1993)? Doha seems to be keyword to recognize it. --Apoc2400 (talk) 14:34, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good. It makes more sense than previous one. =] -- Modamoda (talk) 16:56, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I also like this modification, too. on camera^(t) 00:12, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Subject of this document is changed.(In Korean Wikipedia, 도하의 기적(Miracle of Doha)->도하의 희비(Joy and sorrow of Doha)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sinuikiru (talk • contribs) 05:05, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's more like 'Miracle and Agony of Doha'. But there is no just one word which means that Korean word. Is it the problem? I think 'Miracle and Agony of Doha' or 'Agony and Miracle of Doha' is good. How about it?--NuvieK (talk) 05:13, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In the case of korean, there's an usage of binding 'miracie' and 'agony'. so change of the the term was easy. But English is different. And, and Agony of Doha' or 'Agony and Miracle of Doha' is sth ackward. Moreover, other countries' people except Korean and Japanese looks the match the fact without any feeling. I agree Japan v Iraq (Doha 1993).--Awesong (talk) 06:10, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - It seems that the discussion over the POV-ness of the article name seems to miss the point of the article. The article isn't so much about the match per se, but about the term, "Agony of Doha", and its significance to Japanese football fans. --Mosmof (talk) 06:08, 25 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion is not about POVness. And It's about neturality between Korean and Japanese, especially the term and contents. SO I want alternative term. The Match is "the fact", and the opinion is different. Should it follow the fact, if the opinions have the problem? --Awesong (talk) 12:23, 13 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ko wiki's article's title was changed to "Miracle of Doha" again.--NuvieK (talk) 01:03, 22 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge with 1994 FIFA World Cup qualification (AFC)

Not notable enough to have independent article. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 19:11, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - notable events. 39.7.59.101 (talk) 00:50, 28 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]