Talk:Jane Haining

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Ref

Please see:

'Time to honour Jane Haining, Scotland's Schindler'

--Mais oui! (talk) 10:37, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

'Honouring Jane Haining' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 56.0.143.25 (talk) 13:40, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of Ripped Off Material

The user One Pound stole this material right down to the bad English and typos from

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Jane_Haining —Preceding unsigned comment added by 56.0.143.25 (talk) 14:06, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

At the bottom of that page is the statement "The source of this article is Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. The text of this article is licensed under the GFDL." Wikipedia content is free to reuse under the terms of the relevant licence (originally GFDL and now CC-BY-SA) so lots of people copy it: see Wikipedia:Mirrors and forks -- One pound (talk) 18:35, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well at least the account of her death is not sensationalised.Sceptic1954 (talk) 22:59, 28 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

New archive material

Documents 'shed light' on Scotswoman killed at Auschwitz

Mais oui! (talk) 04:13, 14 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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Only Scot

Hi ExRat, I'm replying here to your message on my talk, re: "Haining is the only Scot to be officially honoured for giving her life to help Jews in the Holocaust."

There were several problems with the edits. [1][2] They didn't explain what was meant by "officially honoured", and the first edit was unsourced, although it had been copied word for word from a 2016 BBC article. The second edit cited the BBC, but the BBC didn't say what it meant by "officially honoured" and didn't cite a source. Gordon Brown (Wartime Courage, 2009, p. 97) disagrees with the BBC: he said she was the second Scot to be made Righteous of the Nations, but he also didn't cite a source.

There was a lot of material like that in the article when I found it. If you would still like to add it, please find an authoritative source and explain which honour. If you're referring to Yad Vashem, here is their British list until January 2018. If you're referring to all official honours, there are several that will have to be checked. Alternatively, look for a source (such as a Holocaust historian) who can be trusted to have done that work. Even with an appropriate source, it would be better left out of the lead, in my view. SarahSV ^(talk) 20:19, 17 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, SarahSV. Thank you for clarifying. Yes, I was referring to Haining being the only Scot "officially honoured" by Yad Vashem. I apologise for not being more specific. I had recalled reading this about Haining before, which is why I had added it. Some sources stating this (with direct reference to the Yad Vashem honour) can be found in several journals and publications: The Church of Scotland, The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, Undiscovered Scotland, The Guardian, The Scotmsman, BBC News Scotland, Mosaic magazine, Dumfries and Galloway Hall of Fame, and The National, etc. Not sure why it should be left out of the lead however, as that is quite a notable distinction. ExRat (talk) 22:58, 17 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The key issue is whether it's correct. The sourcing for this article is poor; sources contradict each other and even themselves. I'd like to try to get it on a better footing, and that means adding material only if it's appropriately sourced and we have no reason to think it isn't correct. Given that Brown says she wasn't the only Scot, and that we have no authoritative source saying she was (e.g. Yad Vashem), I think we should leave it out. SarahSV ^(talk) 23:12, 17 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It seems the other Scot was Tommy Noble, a Scottish POW, who was made Righteous among the Nations in November 1988 along with a group of British POWs. See the second paragraph of the Memorials section. SarahSV ^(talk) 05:17, 19 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Great detective work! I must say, you really have done an exceptional job with this article! It's nice that Robinson's contributions have now been noted, as he was seemingly overlooked. From the few online articles on Haining that I have read, this really seems to be the most authoritative and fully-developed now, in every aspect. Again, thanks for your diligence and hard work! ExRat (talk) 17:19, 19 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

ExRat, thank you for the kind words. Jennifer Robertson's article in PRISM: An Interdisciplinary Journal for Holocaust Educators made all the difference. She cites many of her sources, so it's easier to track where things originated. I've added to the lead, per Robertson, that a lot of it stems from David McDougall's booklet in 1949. Thanks again for the feedback. SarahSV ^(talk) 22:29, 19 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

card to Prim ?

Prem ? Xx236 (talk) 14:03, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, that's fixed now. SarahSV ^(talk) 18:59, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Cause of death

Currently the article text gives the cause of death as "cachexia following intestinal catarrh"; the text does not seem to suggest that this is disputed in any way. Is there evidence to support that the cause is unknown, and that it is in some way important that it is unknown? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:31, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm disappointed to see that you keep removing it. No one knows how Jane Haining died; some sources believe she died in the gas chambers. According to the Nazis, she died of "cachexia following intestinal catarrh". The truth is that the cause of death is unknown, as is a great deal else about her that various sources say they know. That's why it matters. Please don't remove it again. SarahSV ^(talk) 00:38, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If that's the case, there should be sourced discussion of this in the article. Please add that if you want to restore it. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:45, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There is discussion of it; see the death section. The idea that we should trust what the SS said is absurd, as is that they might have made a careful diagnosis. The onus is on you to gain consensus to remove this from the infobox. What on earth brought you here to do this? SarahSV ^(talk) 00:57, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've read the Death section. It states what the death certificate states; it does not currently say anything more about what the cause might or might not have been. While I'm personally inclined to agree that the certificate should be viewed as suspicious, at present there is no discussion in the article on that topic, and no sourcing in the article to back up the "unknown" claim. Again, if you have sourcing to support such discussion and such a claim, by all means add it. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:06, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Several sources clearly state that circumstances around Haining's death remain unclear. The History Channel states, "The exact circumstances behind Haining’s death are unclear." Other sources make contradictory claims. Yad Vashem claims she died of starvation. Alison Metcalfe, who is the Manuscripts Curator of Missionary and Military Archives at the National Library of Scotland, posits that research indicates that Haining died in the gas chamber. I may be making a very bold and controversial statement, but gonna have to say, I don't really think the Schutzstaffel is a reliable source. ExRat (talk) 02:00, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Again, I have no objection to such discussion being added to the article and properly sourced - my objection is to the claim being made with no discussion and no sourcing. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:19, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) I added two things to the lead and infobox in the interests of historical accuracy. One is that, no matter what any Nazi source might say, the cause of death is unknown. The speculation that she died in hospital from whatever the SS said or the gas chamber is just that: speculation. The second is the final paragraph of the lead (sourced to Robinson 2014), namely that just about everything we know about her is based on one 1949 Church of Scotland booklet about her: "almost all subsequent publications about Haining depend on McDougall's booklet". There are a few other sources, but a great deal is based on that 1949 source.

Those two issues (that the cause of death is unknown, and that lots of apparently independent sources in fact trace to one booklet) are both important to state upfront. That's why I added "unknown" to the "cause of death=" parameter. SarahSV ^(talk) 02:30, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored this with a source. SarahSV ^(talk) 02:04, 19 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]