Talk:James Smart (police officer)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 12:18, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

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James Smart

• ... that Keir Starmer described Chief Constable James Smart (pictured) as "one of the founding fathers of the Scottish Police"?

• Source: McGowan, John (30 November 2022). Policing the Metropolis of Scotland: A History of Police in The City & County of Edinburgh, 1833-1901 (Volume I). Turlough Publishers. p. 1554. Retrieved 15 October 2023.

ALT1 ... that Chief Constable James Smart (pictured) flooded police courts with over 17,000 cases to prove how impractical it was for police to light the people of Glasgow's stairs?

ALT2 ... that Chief Constable James Smart (pictured) flooded police courts with over 17,000 cases to prove how impractical it was for home owners to light their own stairs?

• Source: Goldsmith, Alistair L. (1993). The First Chief Constable. Strathclyde Police. p. 8. Retrieved 14 October 2024.

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Pulp and paper industry in Indonesia

Created by Sahaib (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 34 past nominations.

Sahaib (talk) 09:36, 16 October 2024 (UTC).

• Hi Sahaib, review follows: article moved to mainspace on 16 October and is of good length; article is well written and cited inline throughout; I hadn't heard of the publisher used for the citaiton for the hook but the author looks like they are reliable, holding a PhD and having written on the history of Scottish police elsewher (and being a former police superintendent); hook fact is mentioned in the article and supported by the source; image is OK and looks to be public domain by virtue of age; I didn't pick up any issues with overly-close paraphrasing from the online sources; a QPQ has been carried out. Looks OK to me - Dumelow (talk) 10:24, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
  • @Sahaib and Dumelow: I'm not convinced this meets WP:DYKINT, especially for an international audience. Perhaps a hook on an event during his career would work better? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 14:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
    • @AirshipJungleman29: I added an alt hook. Sahaib (talk) 15:34, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi Sahaib your hook currently says it was to demonstrate it was impracticable for the police to light the stairs but the article says it was to prove that it shouldn't lie with the homeowner and then was taken on by the police board. What does stairs mean in this context; I am presuming public streets like the Waverley Steps or the Vennel in Edinburgh? In reading the article I also came across a sentence I couldn't work out: "On 28 August 1850, Smart ended the practice of night constables deciding their hours and half hours with the exception of five and half past five." presumably "deciding" is the wrong word here? - Dumelow (talk) 17:18, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

@Dumelow: you are correct, I changed it. (later in 1866 they no longer become the responsibility of police, so I can see why I got confused) The book "The First Chief Constable" is not available online, I went to the National Library of Scotland to use the book to create a draft, the full sentence from this edit "On 28 August 1850, Smart ended the practice of the night constables calling the hours and half hours with the exception of five and half past five." I do not know what that means. Sahaib (talk) 17:38, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I think ALT2 is OK. It used to be that wathchmen and the like would call out the hours of the clock; like the trope you see in old mediaeval films: "Six o'clock and all's well". That the Glasgow police did it is confirmed by p170 of Alison, Robert (1892). The Anecdotage of Glasgow: Comprising Anecdotes and Anecdotal Incidents of the City of Glasgow and Glasgow Personages. T. D. Morrison.. I think you could stick with "calling" or use "announcing" - Dumelow (talk) 17:48, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Untitled

I came here via the frontpage, in the hopes to find out what "lighting the stairs" is supposed to mean. Unfortunately I didn't. Does every Glasgow house have stairs? Why do they need to be lit? This really needs some context.

PS sorry if I break any of the html here, but wiki has a worse edit tool then early 2000s internet lol, like why does the talk page not facilitate actual talking? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:3100:7D75:6800:A957:82F6:8B07:2AE2 (talk) 00:36, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

@2A02:3100:7D75:6800:A957:82F6:8B07:2AE2: see this other book, it mentions of an accident because somebody didn't light their stairs. Sahaib (talk) 07:35, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Still, "lighting of stairs" should be explained, especially as this is something on the front page. GGOTCC (talk) 14:55, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

"state of utmost apparent security"

Is this 'insecurity' in the source? It would make more sense. Jontel (talk) 07:05, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

@Jontel: the source uses the word security. "The Glasgow Herald subsequently reported: - The first outbreak took place on Monday 6 March 1848. At three o'clock the town was in a state of utmost apparent security, and before four o'clock bread...". It might mean that they were more police officers. Sahaib (talk) 07:23, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

"Smart did not support the lighting of stairs being the legal responsibility of home owners as many did so by breaking the law"

"Smart did not support the lighting of stairs being the legal responsibility of home owners as many did so by breaking the law" The meaning is unclear to me. Should it read "Smart did not support the lighting of stairs being the legal responsibility of home owners as many failed to do so, thereby breaking the law"? Jontel (talk) 07:11, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

@Jontel: the book doesn't go into much detail (it only has 15 pages). According to this other book, it appears people were lighting their stairs too late not that they weren't lighting their stairs. Sahaib (talk) 07:35, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

The book that you link refers to "common stairs" but dates from 1894 and is not relevant to the article on James Smart. As it is currently written the meaning of "stairs" is unclear, and this fact should therefore not have been nominated/approved for "Did You Know". I note that the question of the meaning of stairs was raised during the DYK nomination discussion but was not answered. JayZed (talk) 18:28, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

@JayZed: The book discusses the Glasgow Police Act of 1866, so it is relevant. Sahaib (talk) 20:57, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

Maybe there's a regional difference in language at play here, but as an American I have no clear idea what "the lighting of stairs" means, and I think many people are in the same boat. Whether it refers to lighting lamps in the common stairways of apartment buildings or something else, some clarification would be wonderful. --Iritscen (talk) 20:31, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

@Iritscen: the book linked above mentions street lamps. Sahaib (talk) 20:59, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

So is the phrase "lighting the stairs" referring to the steps on the exterior of the buildings, i.e. part of the street? Perhaps these lamps were closer to the buildings than street lights are? --Iritscen (talk) 21:16, 2 December 2024 (UTC)

@Iritscen: this source states "In 1866 the Glasgow Police Act empowered the Council to erect and maintain lamps and lamp posts in all public and private streets, courts and common stairs in the city." so probably not part of the street. Also, I would definitely not consider myself an "expert editor" on the subject, the only sort of connection I have to the subject is that I live in Glasgow. Sahaib (talk) 21:35, 2 December 2024 (UTC)