Talk:James Rowe (footballer, born 1983)

Stats Source

All the match stats of Rowe's tenure at Gloucester City and Chesterfield are listed on Soccerway website, including FA Trophy.

Just need to scroll back and they are listed.

Soccerway is a reliable source of information. Immersive01 (talk) 11:25, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

The general Soccerway source you are using is not good enough. This is why you keep on being reverted. GiantSnowman 13:06, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I think the most reliable source (see my edits and replies below) is Transfer Market . See link below.

i think for the sake of everyone’s input on these just used the most reliable - it also eradicates having to add the games as you go as the games are totalled plus detailed if necessary .

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/james-rowe/profil/trainer/86523 Super Mario 1887 (talk) 19:49, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Education/license

"Rowe holds a UEFA A Licence, and a Masters of Research Degree in Sports Science from Nottingham Trent University."[1]

I just removed the above, the source said nothing of the sort. Does anyone have a WP-good ref for that? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:41, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

The guardian article below says he has done a masters on sports directorship and graduated in 2024. His third masters degree . So I think that highlights his quals and be used as a reference.

https://amp.theguardian.com/football/2024/nov/16/james-rowe-interview-chesterfield-trial Super Mario 1887 (talk) 19:46, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

I've added that information with the source, as well as found sources for the other info. Thanks. RedPatch (talk) 19:01, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

That’s good work ! Thanks for assistance on that as I couldn’t find info on the other quals Super Mario 1887 (talk) 19:16, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I added something on his legal costs. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:43, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Rowe's children?

[2] says daughters, an IP-editor says sons. I changed it to "children" for the time being. Opinions and WP:BLP-good sources? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:16, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

[3] says "sons", so I'm going with that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:59, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes quite right the article says sons. Seems like a good source of information. Super Mario 1887 (talk) 09:08, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 November 2024

However, he left Rugby Town after three games by mutual consent, following being fined by the club for dissent.

This is not referenced at all . It’s quite concerning when going through this page the amount of in referenced statements being made about Rowe. Super Mario 1887 (talk) 13:30, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Not referenced at all? There is literally a reference attached to the sentence, which you even copied in your post here. I also notice that immediately following this edit request you edited Daniel Webb (footballer) to say "After Rowe left the club, Webb remained a snake at the club under new manager Paul Cook". RedPatch (talk) 14:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: per the above comment. DrOrinScrivello (talk) 21:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately this can’t be used because it is unsourced and a blog. I think Rowe played 6 games at Rugby when researching so even that is wrong

It’s known in the fan base that Danny Webb has been a snake in his role at Leyton Orient and again while at Chesterfield. I will look for a reference from his Orient Days Super Mario 1887 (talk)

It's the club's official site, not a blog though. RedPatch (talk) 17:00, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

It’s a blog on their official site by an unknown. What type of dissent was it. This would never be on an official site . You’re on dangerous grounds and I would suggest it’s removed. It’s basically a random dig with no substance. If there was a report on this in a media reference to quote and rely on then yes by all means it should stay. I’ve looked and there is no media report ? Unless you can source one. Super Mario 1887 (talk) 19:43, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree with RedPatch, source seems acceptable. It's not a blog afaict, it's similar to using a company's own website, which is acceptable if done right. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 04:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

It is not acceptable because there is no right of reply and not a media source. It needs taking down Super Mario 1887 (talk) 08:52, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

See WP:RS and stop wasting peoples time by making stuff up. If you keep doing that a WP:ADMIN may WP:BLOCK you. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I’m sorry that’s very rude. Not making anything up there is no media source to confirm this random point. You’re relying on a blog from the club site . Who was the author of this for example? What was the dissent ? When was the dissent ? It’s very odd you continue to pick and choose what you wish to be factual and not . Please remove this as per Wiki reference guidelines it falls short . Super Mario 1887 (talk) 13:09, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2024

2020</ref>

Egghead06 needs to stop violating this page with unreliable sources and unreliable information. It seems he has a personal vendetta against Rowe. Unsure if he knows him personally but is very factious in his editing.

I noticed that this was provided a few years back too.

- the match stats of Rowe's tenure at Gloucester City and Chesterfield are listed on Soccerway website, including FA Trophy. Just need to scroll back and they are listed. Soccerway is a reliable source of information. Immersive01 (talk) 11:25, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Very odd how you’re now attempting to use soccer base as a source and the stats are far more unreliable. It doesn’t matter if they have concluded what wins Rowe for it isn’t a reliable site that is used for referencing manager statistics. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Super Mario 1887 (talk • contribs) 00:28, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Equally odd now Rowe didn’t manage at all at AFC Fylde.

Please revert edits back to original along with solid references .

Super Mario 1887 (talk) 00:18, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

With regards to the stats, per FIFA and by extension WikiProject Football, if a match ends in a draw and is then decided in PKs, it is officially a draw and not a win/loss. That was the original issue on the page earlier. Explained and referenced at Penalty_shoot-out_(association_football)#Overview The reversion to the soccerbase reflects that. The AFC Frylde stats should be re-added though. RedPatch (talk) 17:06, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes I can see that however soccer see isn’t a reliable source. Transfermarkt is a far superior and reliable source. These are the stats that need to be used. For example Rowe managed 23 games at Gloucester. Please adjust accordingly .

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/james-rowe/profil/trainer/86523 Super Mario 1887 (talk) 19:39, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2024 (2)

This is just going around in circles . As per edit reasoning below this should be removed. Super Mario 1887 (talk) 00:48, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 13:06, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

In 2015, Rowe left West Ham after having been disciplined for "poor practice" regarding young players. Following an internal investigation caused by complaints, he was ordered to undertake awareness training.

this needs removing. Reason being reference 21 does not say anywhere there were complaints. It also doesn’t mention an internal investigation. It says there was an anonymous letter sent to the club. Secondly reference 22 says Rowe was sanctioned,  ? Sanctioned with what and what proof is there. This paragraph isn’t a reflection of what’s reported. Super Mario 1887 (talk) 19:35, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Noticed a further incorrect justification of this passage by RedPatch. It isn’t what is referenced at all from the article. The article says an anonymous letter was sent in nothing about internal complaints. This is as explained by quite a few different users speculative to say the least. Needs removing. Super Mario 1887 (talk) 21:40, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

The article text follows the sources. Earlier discussion at Talk:James_Rowe_(footballer,_born_1983)/Archive_1#Recent_edits_about_the_circumstances_under_which_he_left_West_Ham.

WP: "Following an internal investigation caused by complaints, he was ordered to undertake awareness training."

Sources[4][5]: "West Ham United have disciplined their new assistant academy director for “poor practice” following complaints about his treatment of young players. James Rowe, who works with children as young as nine, was also ordered to undertake awareness training following an internal investigation by the Premier League side, the outcome of which was backed by the Football Association."

So the WP-text is a correct summary of the source, which is WP:BLP-good. If by "reference 21" you meant [6], you didn't read it or you're making stuff up.

Ping @RedPatch and @Girth Summit if you wish to comment. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 04:04, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I can’t read the source it isn’t clear but there is no internal complaints confirmed by the club. This needs taking down or rewording because it is misinformation. If you’re the administrator then please could you deal with this correctly as @RedPatch is simply continuing to vandalise this page with weak sources. Super Mario 1887 (talk) 08:50, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

If you can't read the source, don't make up stuff about what it does or doesn't say, that is WP:DISRUPTIVE. And no, RedPatch is not vandalizing this article. See WP:VANDALIZE. You saying something is misinformation doesn't make it so. We don't need the club saying there was an internal investigation, The Telegraph saying so is enough for WP-purposes. The goal of any WP-article is to summarize the cited WP:RS on the subject. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:46, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

No you’re making it up unfortunately and editing what you see fit. The incorrect statistics being one that you’re simply ignoring . There can’t be a correct summary as no one can show a link for the readers to view it’s locked . Your point has no foundation unfortunately. We have to ensure what’s stated or factual. Super Mario 1887 (talk) 13:06, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Super Mario 1887 - I skimmed through the discussion above to try to work out what the disagreement is about, and I see you making accusation of vandalism and bad faith editing against at least two contributors to this page. Those are personal attacks, which should not be made on an article's talk page - you need to not do things like that, or you can expect your account to be blocked. If you have very strong evidence that someone is editing in bad faith, you can take it to WP:ANI, but I would caution you that reports there can backfire if the evidence is not persuasive. Now, have you read through the discussion above that Gråbergs Gråa Sång linked to, in which this content was discussed? Girth Summit _(blether) 17:19, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

On this website, WP:PAYWALLED sources are ok. On your own website, do and write as you like. We, as in Wikipedians, follow WP:RS. But you are right that I'm ignoring the statistics, they don't interest me. And you are free to ignore WP-articles or parts of them that don't interest you, per WP:CHOICE. WP is a hobby. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Oh so you are interested in making baseless controversial individual character references and ignoring the WP:REFERENCING guidelines. I must say that’s not cool at all. WP is not a hobby to slander people and to ensure pages are credible we all have to ensure the facts are correctly stated or not at all. If you are removing sections or making edits could you ensure it is correct to do so or if put right by facts from others such as me or I’ve noticed many others have challenged you surrounding matters on this page and backed up with referencing could you ensure that you complete the task of putting it right. An example of this is Rowe’s education and qualifications. It is quite clearly quoted in an article recently that you were wrong to edit and remove a section. Please rewrite or indeed out the original passage back in. Thank you in advance. Super Mario 1887 (talk) 19:39, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2024 (3)

+ Managerial record by team and tenure Super Mario 1887 (talk) 12:22, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Kline • talk • contribs 05:09, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

The manager statistics are completely wrong, if it continues I will try to contact the original creator of this page to highlight and simply delete it. It has to be factual and soccerbase is not a reliable source.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/james-rowe/profil/trainer/86523

please can you also stop allowing @RedPatch to hide replies and set permanent links on false information. Super Mario 1887 (talk) 08:56, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Since you're accussing me of various things on various sections of this thread:

Re:vandalism...First of all, I was the one who cleaned up this article a couple years ago when it was getting vandalized with derogatory posts as well as COI concerns when it was asked on WikiProjectFootball and cleaned it up with only sourced material. Secondly, I've only made three edits to the article in the last two years (2 this week and one months ago: 1) Re-adding deleted clubs from the infobox that are sourced in the prose from playing career 2) an article typo where part of the next sentence was included twice "He went to Holland. He went to Amsterdam. and 3) way back in April Changing PK matches to draws rather than wins which is what PK matches are deemed by FIFA

Re:hiding replies....I am not the one who has been hiding replies, that was you See This Example, I simply re-added it back to the discussion See example.

Regarding stats, I haven't touched the stats section since April, which was to update the PK matches as mentioned above which you acknowledged as okay.

As for Transfrmarkt vs Soccerway vs Soccerbase. WikiProject:Football does not consider Transfrmarkt as an allowed source. That has nothing to do with me. If you would like to see it changed to be allowed, please raise the question at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football. RedPatch (talk) 11:51, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Transfrmarkt is not deemed as an acceptable source on Wiki as it is considered to be in part user generated and thus not reliable. I don’t personally support this idea, but, hey that’s consensus.--Egghead06 (talk) 11:59, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Ok that’s fair but in terms of the statistics why would you solely be focusing on re adding stuff that is ambiguous to say the least. The sources you have re added can not be seen as. You’re going of random quotes from other users that they apparently read ? Why wouldn’t you delete the statistics and go back to the original stars per Soccerway as clearly the stats that replaced them are not reliable ? Numerous examples being Rowe has managed more than 93 games I believe and his last role was not Chesterfield. Super Mario 1887 (talk) 12:26, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I re-added the AFC Fylde stats (again I WAS NOT the one who removed it), with a citation needed tag, since the soccerway site does not specifically list coaches records. I haven't been re-adding sources, please stop saying I did. All I did was re-add that he played for Stamford and Rugby Town in the infobox when it was removed which is backed up by sourcing. Frankly, I'm just tired of editing this article which gets edited so often from both sides (supporters and opponents) that I basically stopped editing it and let others take care of it (hence I've only made the three (now four) minor edits since 2022) - so please stop saying I'm the one maintaining the article and "adding ambiguous sources" - I haven't been editing the article for two years. RedPatch (talk) 13:13, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi RedPatch that’s fair I think however it’s clear Soccerbase cannot be used . That’s the point I’m trying to make . What are the main sites used for other managers ? That would be helpful Super Mario 1887 (talk) 13:16, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Ask at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football. I'm not really sure the best places for National League football as the lower divisions of England are not my area of expertise. There are other editors there who know more about non-league football than I do RedPatch (talk) 13:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I don’t understand why there would be supporters and opponents . the facts just need to stated and backed up as per referencing guidelines. For example a blog on a club site with no author is totally ambiguous . Also a reference that is fire walled and randomly quoted for readers to view themselves is ambiguous too. They can’t be relied on. However an article in telegraph or guardian that isn’t blocked for the general reader to view can be referenced. As should the stats of his career too. It’s quite clear. Super Mario 1887 (talk) 13:19, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

By supporters and opponents, what I meant was when people would edit it with non-neutral comments. Not going to look for specifics in the edit history, but writing things like XYZ is the best ever / XYZ is a terrible player or just deleting content (rather than writing in neutral terms). Happens on so many pages (that's why pages like Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi are permanently protected). RedPatch (talk) 13:29, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Understood. Would you agree that references of articles that are blocked from the general public and then apparently quoted from cannot be relied on? The whole purpose of wiki is transparency. ? Super Mario 1887 (talk) 14:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

See WP:PAYWALL. Having to pay/borrow/go to a library to access a source is no hindrance on this website. WP has been around more than 20 years, many things have been discussed before and put into policies and guidelines. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:12, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Ok so show the free reader who views this page and other pages the article then no problems to refer to it. At the moment it’s random and certianly is not what’s been reported by West Ham his employer or Rowe himself. I cannot find a comment from either on it. Super Mario 1887 (talk) 17:35, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

You're not making yourself understood, at least not to me. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:38, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Because you seem only interested in changing controversial things on this page and it isn’t okay. For example you was shown facts with a reference concerning Rowe’s qualifications over a day ago. something that you incorrectly deleted a while back concerning his qualifications. Instead of changing this to the correct facts you have ignored it yet backed up or edited other things on the page that are quite clearly ambiguous at best. An example is at outlined in the Wiki referencing guidelines, it is quite clear that if you are relying on a media source and quoting direct from it then that reference would need to be open to the general public. Surrounding Rowe’s departure from West Ham there is neither a quote from the club or himself in regards to this matter and certainly nowhere where it proves an internal investigation existed. All FA and club internal investigations would been made public and this is nowhere to be found. Therefore we cannot rely on the telegraph source / reference at this stage. If the firewall is removed and indeed the quote you rely on matches what’s written then of course no problems it should remain. The current passage needs removing unless anyone can add anymore facts to his departure. Another issue raised is Rowe’s statistics - soccerbase clearly have the wrong information and cannot be relied on. It’s clear , they have the amount of games Rowe has managed wrong , his wins draws and losses are all incorrect. Just because the references you rely on say something about someone’s statistics or departure doesn’t mean it can be relied on. If you have not got time to do the research and look at the dates of employment at each club and which games he managed during that period and ensure the facts are stated correctly then kindly pass the administration to someone else that will. Please stop threatening me with being blocked , I am simply showing facts in a polite manner to ensure it is right. Super Mario 1887 (talk) 19:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Why we don’t do this is covered above in the section Stats Source from 2021 - nothing has changed.--Egghead06 (talk) 16:58, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately we don’t use soccer base as a reliable source hence why Rowe’s games are out of sync . Please if you’re going to change statistics make sure it’s with a reliable source or I will report you for violating the page. Super Mario 1887 (talk) 17:32, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Managerial Statisitics

| style="text-align:center" |64 | style="text-align:center" |36 | style="text-align:center" |16 | style="text-align:center" |12 | style="text-align:center" |056.25 | |- |align=left|AFC Fylde |align=left|7 March 2022 |align=left|29 September 2022 | style="text-align:center" |27 | style="text-align:center" |16 | style="text-align:center" |6 | style="text-align:center" |5 | style="text-align:center" |059.26 | |- !colspan=3|Total | style="font-weight:bold;background:#efefef;text-align:center" | | style="font-weight:bold;background:#efefef;text-align:center" |4,662 | style="font-weight:bold;background:#efefef;text-align:center" |2,127 | style="font-weight:bold;background:#efefef;text-align:center" |2,328 | style="font-weight:bold;background:#efefef;text-align:center" |005.17

These are not the correct statistics.calculating each game from the start of his tenure appointments at each club to end date these are the correct stats game by game:

Rowe has managed 114 games won : 62 drew: 27 Lost: 25

separated and detailed stats of each game on the clubs official websites , soccerway and also Transfermarket determine that Rowe’s statistics for each club are:

Gloucester: played: 23 won: 10 drew: 4 lost: 9

https://uk.soccerway.com/teams/england/gloucester-city-fc/

https://www.gloucestercityafc.com/fixtures-results

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/james-rowe/profil/trainer/86523

Chesterfield: played: 64 won: 36 ( x 2 penalty wins as per RedPatch point penalties count as draws so 16 draws not 14 as below). drew: 16 lost: 12

https://chesterfield-fc.co.uk/matches/fixtures-results-2

https://uk.soccerway.com/teams/england/chesterfield-fc/723/

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/james-rowe/profil/trainer/86523

AFC Fylde played: 27 won: 16 drew: 7 lost: 4 (penalty wins or losses count as draws)

https://www.afcfylde.co.uk/1st-team-2021-22-fixtures-results/

https://www.afcfylde.co.uk/1st-team-2022-23-fixtures-results/

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/james-rowe/profil/trainer/86523

https://uk.soccerway.com/teams/england/afc-fylde/13630/

Please choose or combine any of sites and sources above for each stats. Soccerbase is not reliable and it also hasn’t covered fylde. Super Mario 1887 (talk) 15:59, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

References

New disagreement

I added this bit:

"The drawn out legal process cost Rowe tens of thousands of pounds, and the family had to sell their home."

per [7], and was reverted at [8]. IMO, it's reasonable content, and the source is good. I was also going to add per [9] that Rowe was critical of the length of the process, but I'll hold on that for the moment. Opinions, editors? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:15, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

I am sticking by the facts again. I really don’t understand the point you are raising. You have no proof with the fa or club or the type of dissent or the amount the fine was. Neither is confirmed in the source you have off

as you say are the official club and FA sites. I am removing again until you can come up with a specific source that highlights the above. Super Mario 1887 (talk) 10:56, 26 November 2024 (UTC)