Talk:James Monroe/Archive 1

Archive 1

convexly?

... The era of "good feelings" endured until 1824, and carried over, albeit somewhat convexly ...

convexly? I'm not familiar with this usage. Jamesdowallen (talk) 11:49, 19 December 2009 (UTC) (Yes, I do know it is adv. convex  :-)

virginia house of delegates

He's listed on the page as being elected in 2006. This isn't right. I suggest somebody find the real date and fix this. bigevilalien

party

Following from the note on this page, I don't know if it's sensible to list party allegiance for the Presidents between Jefferson and Jackson. From 1800 to 1829, contemporaries would not really have recognised any notion of party politics. Historians consider the first party system to have held sway from 1789 to 1800, by which point the Federalists were all but dead in the water, and the second to have started only really with the election campaign of Jackson. Comments anyone? --AW

See the discussion at First Party System. Party politics were alive and well in 1812, alive but sickly in 1816, and dead by early 1820s. Rjensen 22:17, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

image

this http://teachpol.tcnj.edu/amer_pol_hist/thumbnail116.html is a great image of Monroe. Exquisite, really. And it is in public domain. I recommend someone using it here. Kingturtle 05:29, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

This seems to have been done...--BozMo|talk 15:12, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

don't know how to do this myself.....but could someone set monroe's image in the top right corner of the page, so as to conform to wikipedia's 'presidential standard' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.186.185.41 (talk) 08:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Monroe's Honor Rank

Although Monroe was not mentioned at the Talk:George Washington section "Honor Ranks", I currently think he likely has an honor rank somewhere between #6 and #15. Do you think his honor rank is somewhere in this range?? 66.32.137.112 20:21, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Secretary of State

Can someone explain his two terms as Secretary of State? Weren't they just one term? Or did he resign, was reappointed, or something like that?—Mark Adler (markles) 21:38, 25 February 2006 (UTC) Were any laws made under the presidenticy(sorry for my infamously poor spelling) of James Monroe ruled unconstitutional?

Madison & Deism

Monroe's connection to Deism is discussed at, among other places, http://www.vqronline.org/articles/2003/autumn/holmes-religion-james-monroe/ and http://www.us.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/ReligionTheology/HistoryofChristianity/American/?view=usa&ci=9780195300925 Characterizing him only as Episopalian is misleading --JimWae 02:39, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The Reverend Bird Wilson, who was just a few years removed from being a contemporary of the so-called founding fathers, said further in the above-mentioned sermon that "the founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison,"James Monroe, John Quincy Adams, and Andrew Jackson] _not a one had professed a belief in Christianity_" (Remsberg, p. 120, emphasis added).

I do not believe that any of your links are reliable nor do they provide proof that Monroe was in fact a diest. There is no verifiable source to prove that he was and this is against wiki policy. Then the second link you provided a book which reviews the faith of our founding fathers, according to one author, but he does not provide proof that he was strictly a diest. He just presents information which he bases his opinion on. You added a citation from the Reverend Bird Wilson, who uses his own personal opinion on the religion of all of the founding fathers and for all we know was not even Monroes Reverend. Just because someone is a priest it doesn't make their viewpoint fact considering many reverends have different opinions and there are a million Christian sects. Until you can provide a verifiable source where Monroe says he was a diest it needs to be removed from the official religion box.

However, if you want to be more specific and write a religious views section and present all of the information that could indicate that Monroe had diest tendencies feel free. I encourage you to do it and I wont change it just as long as it has citiations and you can let the reader make up their own mind. But until then it is against wikipolicy to state something without a reliable verifiable source. History books official write that he was an Episopalian and not a diest.

MorningGinger 03:29, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

David L. Holmes is Walter G. Mason Professor of Religious Studies at the College of William and Mary. He is the author of A Brief History of the Episcopal Church, A Nation Mourns , other books, and numerous articles. If a reputable scholar says Monroe was not simply an Episcopalian, supports it, and his work is endorsed by other scholars, wikipedia can report on it. He is not alone in his thesis. Alternatively, we can completely omit the heading from the info-box. "Proving" statements in history & biography is not the same as proving 2+2=4 --JimWae 03:41, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

As his Episcopal marriage, wedding, and funeral indicate, James Monroe maintained a life-long affiliation with the church in which he was raised. The Episcopal Church ministered to the Monroe family and claimed them as its own. But the surviving evidence indicates that Monroe was not a Christian in the traditional sense. Neither his private nor his public writings suggest that he ever experienced a sense of the mystery or awe that is at the heart of orthodox Christianity. No evidence exists to show that he was an active or emotionally engaged Christian. How the Anglican interpretation of Christianity influenced his character and personality, and what depths of religious feelings he may have experienced while attending worship, scholars may never know.

Sry I just read the whole article and as you said he is a notable scholar. But it does not say anywhere that he was in fact a diest. Quotes:

"As his Episcopal marriage, wedding, and funeral indicate, James Monroe maintained a life-long affiliation with the church in which he was raised."

It is a fact that Monroe maintained a life long affiliation with the church.

The Episcopal Church ministered to the Monroe family and claimed them as its own. But the surviving evidence *indicates that Monroe was not a Christian in the traditional sense. Neither his private nor his public writings *suggest that he ever experienced a sense of the mystery or awe that is at the heart of orthodox Christianity. No evidence exists to show that he was an active or emotionally engaged Christian. How the Anglican interpretation of Christianity influenced his character and personality, and what depths of religious feelings he may have experienced while attending worship, scholars may never know.

• Indicates and suggest are not facts. The fact is he was officially an episopalian and not a diest. However, I have to agree with the author, to my knowledge Monroe did not seem to be an extremely devout Christian. But this is my opinion and the author is merely presenting his own opinion and did not base his opinion that he was a diest with any facts.

Long Exert:

All of this is essential background for the religion of Monroe. Born into an Anglican family, Monroe was baptized in Washington Parish in Westmoreland County. He studied at Campbelltown Academy, a noted academy run by the Rev. Archibald Campbell, the rector of Washington Parish; secretary of state and chief justice John Marshall was one of his classmates. He went to an Anglican college, the College of William and Mary in Williamsburg, where the president and faculty were clergy of the Established Church. There Monroe was required to attend not only daily morning and evening prayer in the College chapel in what is today the Sir Christopher Wren Building but also Sunday worship at neighboring Bruton Parish Church.

When Congress moved to New York City, Monroe met and married an Episcopalian, Elizabeth Kortright. Their marriage occurred at her home parish of Trinity Church on Wall Street. The couple raised their two daughters—Eliza and Maria Hester—as Episcopalians. While practicing law in Fredericksburg, Monroe attended St. George's Episcopal Church and briefly served as a vestryman of St. George's Parish. Even after the disestablishment of the Episcopal Church in 1784, holding such an office continued to be part of the normal expectation of members of the Virginia gentry. He served on the board of visitors of William and Mary, where membership in the Episcopal Church was almost a prerequisite for service. While president of the U.S., he occupied the President's Pew in St. John's Episcopal Church, Lafayette Square, opposite the White House. Its rector officiated when Maria Hester was married at the White House in 1820.

When Monroe died in 1831, he was buried from Trinity Church, the principal Episcopal church in New York City. The Episcopal bishop of New York and the rector of Trinity Church conducted the service from the Book of Common Prayer. In the same month the Episcopal bishop of Virginia conducted a memorial service for Monroe in Virginia. In 1858 his coffin was disinterred from its burial vault in a private cemetery in Manhattan and moved to the Episcopal Church of the Annunciation on West 14th Street in Manhattan, where the public could view it. The coffin was then moved by steamer to Richmond and reinterred with pageantry in Hollywood Cemetery. A Presbyterian minister delivered the prayer of commitment.

There is nothing in the whole entire article that proves he was a diest. He didn't present any evidence to even indicate that he could have been a diest. It is also only his opinion not fact.

Last paragraph summary:

James Monroe seems to have been an Episcopalian of deistic tendencies who valued civic virtues above religious doctrine. No one cared more for the identity of the new nation. His passion always seems to have been directed towards the cause of the United States. From his 18th to his 73rd year, he was almost continually in public service. "He had found [the nation] built of brick," John Quincy Adams declared in his eulogy of Monroe, "and left her constructed of marble." Reflective, tactful, practical, simple in his tastes, democratic in his convictions, James Monroe may have been the most skeptical of the early presidents of the United States.

He based his whole article on his opinion and even says "seems to have been an Episcopalian of deistic tendencies" Seems is not fact. The fact is Monroe maintained a life long affiliation with the Episcopal church and never once said that he was in fact a diest. You can't say as fact on wikipedia that he was a diest when you have provided absolutely no evidence. I will remove the diest as his official religion for the info box and leave Episcopalian, but you can be free to write his religious views article and present all information from noteable scholars with sources. In fact I encourage you to do it as a religious views section would compliment the article and is of encyclopedic value. It is clearly wrong to state that he was a diest and is a violation of wiki policy.

MorningGinger 04:14, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not too enamored of that link either, but I don't think you can dismiss the possibility that Monroe was a deist in some fashion. [1] Here is more on that author (very little on Monroe though)... [2]

"Little is known concerning President Monroe's religious views. We do not know if he had any, and if he did, what they were. His biographer, Daniel C. Gilman, says: ‘He was extremely reticent in his religious sentiments, at least in all that he wrote. Allusions to his belief are rarely, if ever, to be met with in correspondence.’ (pp. 245-246.) A still later biography by George Morgan does not even say so much as this one by Gilman. The six volumes of his Writings confirm the fact of his reticence on religious subjects." - ( Franklin Steiner, The Religious Beliefs of Our Presidents, New York: Prometheus Books, 1995, p. 94. ) [3]

Perhaps the above quote would be worth including in the pending religious beliefs section? --Sparkhurst 06:18, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no evidence to even suggest that he may have been a deist. It is really something to be dismissed due to the reason that any supporting claim is extremely weak. There is a strong case however to suggest that Monroe was not extremely religious even though he maintained a lifelong affiliation with the Episcopal church. I do not object to adding that and in fact I encourage you to add it in a Religious Views section as I feel that it is informative and has merit. I just objected to JimWae adding in the Presidents info box that he was officially a deist without any evidence especially when it wasn't even clarified in a religious views section.

MorningGinger 06:35, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I added the religious beliefs section. It would be wise to expand on why he is thought to be a deist. --Sparkhurst 12:16, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I used latest online article...no real evidence for deism either. Rjensen 08:41, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Typical Americanism: a bloated interest in the religious convictions or lack of them of a dead person. This section should be deleted. Monroe was president of the United States, not some country parson. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.105.202 (talk) 20:22, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted the deism claim again. I have yet to find anything other than speculations about Monroe's personal beliefs. Mangoe (talk) 15:03, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Major Reversion

I have reverted through numerous versions to get back to Rjensen's. It appears that various anon IPs have been attempting to disguise false content changes by making many small changes. I apologize if any legitimate edits were lost.K. Scott Bailey 18:37, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

GA fail

I am failing this article for the following reasons:

• The lead should be a three to four paragraph summary of the entire article per WP:LEAD.
• The article needs to have inline citations per WP:ATT.
• The article is not broadly comprehensive:

• What about Monroe's childhood?
• The "Opponent of Federalists" section does not explain the context of its information enough nor give enough details.

• Article organization has problems:

• The "Religious beliefs" section should be integrated into the article more fluidly.
• "Trivia" sections are generally frowned upon at wikipedia. Integrate important information into the rest of the article and delete the rest per WP:TRIVIA. Awadewit ^Talk 08:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

More suggestions

• Overall, I had a sense that the page was too short; when I was done reading, I did not have a good idea of Monroe's life or Presidency.
• In general the page needs to explain itself to readers unfamiliar with the period more.

• Ex: his abilities and total dedication to public service won him election in 1783 to the Confederation Congress, where he sat until 1786 - What is the Confederation Congress? Did it write the Articles of Confederation? Could you provide some explanation and a link?

• Check WP:MOS:

• Heading capitalization - WP:HEAD
• Please link more relevant concepts and names, e.g. "Patrick Henry" and "U.S. Constitution" per WP:MOS-L
• Usually tables and lists are not placed in the middle of articles - could these be moved to the end or turned into prose? WP:EMBED
• You can probably cut down on the external links per WP:LINKS.

• The article needs to be copy edited; there are small problems with sentence construction throughout.

• Ex: In an administration committed to limited government, domestic policies received less attention - less attention than what? You must say "less attention than foreign policies" so that the reader knows what you are comparing.

• The "Bibliography" is difficult to read - please separate the descriptions from the entries in some way.
• Small issue: It is unaesthetic to have all of the images on the right-hand side of the page - please vary! Awadewit ^Talk 08:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Reversion of plagiarized material

The following discussion occurred on a user’s talk page (it has subsequently been deleted):

http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Libs23&diff=prev&oldid=127727826#Plagiarism

While the user admits copying from Grolier’s on this article, nothing was apparently done about it since the plagiarized material is still there. The plagiarized material was added on December 16, 2006. This is the link to the material that was copied onto the Wikipedia article http://ap.grolier.com/article?assetid=0275240-00

I have reverted the article to the last good edit before the plagiarism. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 21:04, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Third paragraph in the Presidency section

"Monroe is probably best known for the Monroe Doctrine, which he delivered in his message to Congress on December 2, 1823. In it, he proclaimed the Americas should be free from future European colonization and free from European interference in sovereign countries' affairs. It further stated the United States' intention to stay neutral in European wars and wars between European powers and their colonies, but to consider any new colonies or interference with independent countries in the Americas as hostile acts toward the Boston Massachusetts"

I'm not sure what this person is trying to say at the end here. Arthurian Legend (talk) 17:18, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Continuing issues with Holmes

I'm a bit concerned with the substitution of the three year old article from the VQR in place of Holmes's book. The article doesn't justify some of the claims made in the article; in particular, the "no record of taking communion" statement is not supported. I don't think the article's argument is particularly good, but in any case, if the information is really coming from Holmes's book, then specific pages should be cited. If not, it should be struck from the bibliography and the article substituted. Mangoe (talk) 17:17, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

"Era of Good Feelings"

I'm wondering if this expression was often used cynically by critics within Monroe's own party. 76.111.80.228 (talk) 18:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC) I need more info on his presidency —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexandergperkins (talk • contribs) 23:43, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Middle Name?

The middle name Lawrence was added to this page a few weeks ago. I couldn't find any source for that name and removed it. Is there anything from his time that shows he was named or once went by the name "James Lawrence Monroe?"--Tim Thomason 15:25, 18 December 2008 (UTC) who wrote this junk —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.215.45.85 (talk) 19:36, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Monroe’s Attire

I have removed the following sentence from the lede:

“Monroe was the last US president who wore powdered wig and knee breeches according to the men´s fashion of the eighteenth century.”

Over a period of three days this sentence has been inserted several times, without explanation, by an IP with few other edits. My objections are:

1. The claim is unsourced and

2. If true (and it very well may be) it still amounts to little more than trivia and does not belong in the lede of the article.

Hopefully the IP will provide his/her source o this discussion page, make the case for including it in the lede of the article, and await a consensus to include it. The article is already flagged for a lack of inline citations and adding further uncited clams does not improve the article. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 19:06, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Evidences and sources for this claim are: http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/database/article_display.cfm?HHID=567 "A dignified and formal man, Monroe was the last president to don the fashions of the eighteenth century. He wore his hair in a powdered wig tied in a queue and dressed himself in a cocked hat, a black broadcloth tailcoat, knee breeches, long white stockings, and buckled shoes." and http://books.google.sk/books?id=p1unoHtahSsC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=James+Monroe++in+wig&source=bl&ots=-z_X8prV3e&sig=j79xpN8OzxjixprASguojdkPg7w&hl=sk&ei=0Jx2S6WIO4yZ_QaKnum6Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CCgQ6AEwBzgK#v=onepage&q=James%20Monroe%20%20in%20wig&f=false —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.102.31.100 (talk) 12:39, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

A Good Man

He was a good man

A Good Man

He was a good man —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.208.117.110 (talk) 19:17, 21 November 2009 (UTC)