Talk:James Douglas, 4th Earl of Morton

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"The powerful earl of Argyll and Atholl"? The two were not the same. The Earls of Argyll, so far as I am aware, were protestant in this period - although the 5th Earl had been, in spite of his protestantism, a supporter of Mary. john k 03:13, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Origin of the 'Maiden'

Is there a source that confirms that the 'Maiden' was made in Halifax, or fetched from there by Morton? The Halifax guillotine is well-documented, but isn't it more likely that local Edinburgh wrights would make their own copy, rather than transport one? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.102.108.32 (talk) 10:44, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Morton's widow?

When did Morton's wife die? We have a section towards the end of the article stating that

"After the execution of her husband, Morton's wife, Dame Elizabeth Douglas was found by an inquest to be incapable of managing her affairs, as she was "idiot and prodigal" in the language of the time."

and yet also a note under "Early career" stating that she died in 1574, long before Morton himself died in 1581, but with no citation to show where this information was sourced.

Could it be possible that the Earl and Countess of Morton's eldest child was also called Elizabeth, and this is where the confusion lies? Or that Morton's mother, also called Elizabeth Douglas, herself died in 1574?

As far as I can see, it does seem difficult to find out anything much about Morton's wife and children, despite the fact that he was such an important figure in Scotland at the time, as was the Douglas family as a whole. Presumably, the fact that there was mental illness or instability in the family meant that a veil was drawn over such details. Plus also, there's the difficulty of the same names cropping up again and again in this period, but with reference to completely different people.

This page here, though, seemed perhaps to be a useful resource, if only to show how little we really seem to know: http://www.thepeerage.com/p10963.htm

Ottershrew (talk) 11:26, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

The ODNB entry for Morton states clearly that he "married Lady Elizabeth Douglas (d. in or after 1581), youngest daughter of James Douglas, third earl of Morton", and that "Morton's wife survived him, but on 12 July 1581 a jury pronounced that she had been insane for twenty-two years." [1] ODNB also states the couple were childless. No idea where the 1574 date comes from, or the daughters, but the ODNB can be considered reliable (which does not appear to be the case with thepeerage.com). Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 11:49, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Jonathan - that's an enormous help. Plus, I hadn't been aware of the long-running discussion about thepeerage.com, which was very helpful to read - thank you for the pointer to that, too. I'll go ahead, then, and delete the notice of Elizabeth's death in 1574.

However, what about the daughters? They're mentioned twice in the WP article, at one place in the text ("Widow, daughters, and the Morton title") even with the detail that they were declared incapable by a "brieve of idiotry" - but as things stand, with an RS like ODNB stating that the couple were childless, it looks like there's no justifiable reason for keeping them here. And perhaps now we have a reason for the lack of names for the daughters: they actually never existed in the first place.

What do you think? Should the daughters go? Ottershrew (talk) 16:18, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

I'd be inclined to do some wider research - ODNB is fine but its only one source. Looking at the history it seems the material may have been expanded by Unoquha (talk · contribs), a knowledgeable editor on this period. I will request further input. Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 16:32, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

The daughters and the old fashioned legalese are in William Fraser's volumes of family papers. Here is the page from the Lennox Muniments vol. 2 I can't find the Carlaverock Book on-line. I think it is interesting but presumably the ODNB compiler didn't think so. 16:54, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you - it's wonderful to see this document. Nevertheless, there's no mention of the daughters as far as I can see - only of the "idiot and prodigall" Dame Elizabeth Dowglas, for whom provision is being made, and on whose behalf her estates are to be administered. However, the Scots Peerage (Scots Peerage, Vol. 6, Sir James Balfour Paul, Lord Lyon King of Arms (editor), (Edinburgh, Scotland: David Douglas, 1909) (page 363) does mention that:

James and Elizabeth "are said to have had ten children, who died young, except three daughters, who survived their father. The Countess was on 12 July 1581 pronounced by a jury to have been insane for twenty-two years. The names of the surviving daughters are nowhere given."

The names of Morton's four natural sons are then given: James (who is mentioned in the WP article Pluscarden Abbey as Pluscarden's Commendator), Archibald, George and William, who were all rehabilitated by Act of Parliament in 1585. There is no mention of their sisters' insanity here, but they do seem to have existed. Ottershrew (talk) 19:29, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

And Balfour Paul's source appears to be [2], which in turn references the Caerlaverock Book... So I see no reason that this material needs to be removed. Thanks, Jonathan Oldenbuck (talk) 12:09, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Thank you for all your help with this. Ottershrew (talk) 08:15, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

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